Cordelia vs. Sumia

[PKL]

Not really. Sumia is just pretty trash in general unless RNG abuse/blessed.

Let me remind you all that she has 18 hp and 5 def with a 30% def growth. Even Frederick cant fix that shit for more than like Chapter 3. Chapter 4 shes facing 2HKOs the wazoo and in Chapter 5 shes also terrible.

Edited August 21, 2013 by PKL

[Vashiane]

now add Cynthia to the poll

Or I could just make a Cynthia vs. Severa topic...

... Although really, that would basically be the ZM vs. Carter thread. XD

Exactly!

It's all your fault!

We could've had a peaceful argument on Shady's thread, but now all of us are stuck here whining and complaining about how one is better than the other!

... You've been reading some of the arguments, right? Have you seen how they turned out?

You just started the apocalypse

Here's your choice

- Burn Everything(-10 Alignments)

- Run away(+10 Alignments)

... Why not both? :D

PEMN. Although it's true you could use both. Sumia + Cordelia equals effectively one Pegasus Knight's worth of personality.

You don't need anyone's permission to rock and roll. Break out your electric guitar and start shredding.

Thank you very much.

Now, it's well established that the Pegasus Knight class set is one of - if not arguably the best - set in the game. Amazing speed, access one of the game's best skills, lances are awesome, etc.

The funny thing is the so-called "genius" Pegasus Knight is actually outclassed in her own original class tree by Sumia. While yes, Cordelia makes the better Falcon Knight due to having higher strength, this completely ignores the other aspect of being a Falcon Knight and her being a Dark Flier at all. And before I truly launch into semantics, I'm grading their usefulness in both the Falcon Knight and Dark Flier classes by assuming they will be using both weapons equally and disregarding the use of Spirit Dusts/Energy Drops.

Now, both girls have a pretty bad magic growth. 20% for Cordelia to 25% for Sumia? Yeah, not exactly preferable. And as pegasus knights both of them are rather fragile. But unlike Sumia, if Cordelia gets defense screwed, she doesn't have an reclass option to assist her and is therefore royally screwed in that department if that ever happens. Sumia's options cover her weaknesses well if she spends some time in term, and she gets an amazing offensive skill set - Cordelia's is a bit more defensive.

Cordelia's best skills are Armsthrift, Sol, Galeforce and Lifetaker. Sumia on the other hand can get Pavise, Luna, Renewal, Healtouch, Galeforce, Tomefaire and Lancefaire. Note the mention of Healtouch, as I'll cover that in a minute. All extremely useful skills for her main class branch: in fact, her skills actually increase her usefulness IN that class branch: watch this.

As a Falcon Knight, she gains access to Lancefaire, correct? Correct. She also gets Healtouch from her Cleric set, which increases her healing potential by I believe 5, right? 5 points may not seem like much on paper, but in battle that could mean the difference between life and death, plus add this to her slightly higher magic growth rate. If you want her to be a Dark Flier instead, simply replace Healtouch with Tomefaire. Add this to Galeforce and Luna (which is arguably a better offensive proc skill than Sol) and you have a LOT of damage potential.

I'm not at all saying Cordelia's a bad unit - Sumia's just a bit more versatile, easier to save without using resources in case of RNG-screwage, and the better of the two in their own shared starting class set.

And now, I hand it over to you, my good sir.

[Chiki]

SO we should give Stahl EXP that Sumia can use better so that Cordelia can be better than Sumia?

Agreed. When you give Cordelia exp, there's an opportunity cost towards that too. So we should penalize Cordelia for that as well.

Opportunity cost doesn't stop Sumia from being one of the best units in the game. There's an opportunity cost to using the Avatar as well, but it doesn't stop him from being the best unit in the game. There's an opportunity cost to using everyone except the people who come in lategame.

FE8 Seth, who comes in Prologue, is by far the best unit in the game and he can LTC/efficiency solo the game by taking all the exp (even though he barely gets any exp in the beginning). There is some opportunity cost, but it doesn't stop Seth from being the best unit in the game.

But no one argues that Seth is not the best unit in the game even though there's an opportunity cost. It's a nonsensical argument really.

[Carter]

... You've been reading some of the arguments, right? Have you seen how they turned out?

Actually, I haven't seen some of the arguments.

I go look.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

... Why not both? :D

That... was the best Neutral choice I have ever seen

You should become an SMT protagonist good sire

[BrightBow]

The only thing awesome here, is the cornfield full of straw-men that you just lit up with a flamethrower.

Cordelia is perfectly serviceable at base stats, and she levels up quickly. The replacement unit, which ate the EXP that Sumia normally gets, is probably going to be kind of a badass. If it's Stahl, for instance, you even get a natural support partner for Cordelia.

Sort of like Sumia's character development, except the entire thing. This is a game with a lot of characters, and not a lot of time to spend on them. Cordelia is not up against Sir Patrick Stewart, here. She's up against Pie-face. Her survivor's guilt in Ch7 by itself makes her a more interesting character than Sumia.

It's worth noting that Cordelia notches a quantity win, here. Sumia has all of six partners with which to showcase her vapid gaze, only four of which even care enough to tie the knot with her. Cordelia has fourteen pairs, twelve of which are husbands.

This is a win for everyone involved, since it cuts down on the Sumia bullshit considerably.

And the replacement unit who gets all the EXP Cordelia would have gotten to catch up, will also be kind of badass.

Look, I was exaggerating to be sure. But just because Cordelia isn't unusable like her daughter, doesn't make her better then Sumia. Sumia contributes for longer and will be stronger by the time Cordelia joins. And her level is a just reward for her contributions. That's all there is to it

And after chapter 7, the desert is calling. And for that, I prefer a flier who can already hold her own due to having to survive ahead of the other units.

Edited August 21, 2013 by BrightBow

[Caster]

Cordelia is my most hated character in this game.
I think you know where my votes went.

[PKL]

Because being a bit stronger than Cordelia when she joins is EVERYTHING. That's all mostly because of supports and favoritism, she would normally be like level 7 too if you are also using Fred (sumia really cant take as much enemy phase action and tagging fred in is a good idea in a lot of chapters) Cordelia catches up real quickly and will surpass her in every single stat, including durability. The argument that she makes a better Falcon Knight makes no sense because she can also be a Dark Flier and Ive used her like that a lot of times.

[Da Bear]

Cordelia's training takes EXP from Panne.

And yet people are criticizing Sumia for taking EXP from others....

Because being a bit stronger than Cordelia when she joins is EVERYTHING. That's all mostly because of supports and favoritism, she would normally be like level 7 too if you are also using Fred (sumia really cant take as much enemy phase action and tagging fred in is a good idea in a lot of chapters) Cordelia catches up real quickly and will surpass her in every single stat, including durability. The argument that she makes a better Falcon Knight makes no sense because she can also be a Dark Flier and Ive used her like that a lot of times.

Speed exists.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Lonely Wallcrab

[Nobody]

Cordelia is my most hated character in this game.

I think you know where my votes went.

To Cordelia?

Because being a bit stronger than Cordelia when she joins is EVERYTHING. That's all mostly because of supports and favoritism, she would normally be like level 7 too if you are also using Fred (sumia really cant take as much enemy phase action and tagging fred in is a good idea in a lot of chapters) Cordelia catches up real quickly and will surpass her in every single stat, including durability. The argument that she makes a better Falcon Knight makes no sense because she can also be a Dark Flier and Ive used her like that a lot of times.

I don't think it's favoritism letting Sumia take the kills if it doesn't cost turns nor is unreliable. It actually makes the chapters easier. As I said, I've used her every time, pairing her with Fred and she always was able to kill everything, even on enemy phase. If she's a bit fragile, then I give her a def tonic, and she can handle everything paired with Fred. That's actually less than that you need to do to train Cordelia.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Nobody

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

When did this thread become a debate?

[LunaSaint]

Cordy for personality, Sumia for gameplay.

[Chiki]

Not really. Sumia is just pretty trash in general unless RNG abuse/blessed.

That's peculiar. Let's say Sumia is level 10 by the beginning of Chapter 8. She has 6 chapters of availability over Cordelia so I don't think this is impossible. Assuming she grows 9 levels, that means she'll gain around 3 def increases since she has 30% growth, so for the sake of simplicity let's assume she gets 3 def total. So Sumia will have 8 def at base by the time Cordelia shows up. Guess who else has 8 defense? Cordelia.

Cordelia and Sumia have equal defense by the time both are around. But it doesn't end there. Sumia will also likely either have an A or S support with Frederick, which doesn't change her bonuses at all, since that's the best way to use Sumia if you are indeed using her. Sumia will now have 14 def thanks to Frederick and that's 16 def with a Tonic. Cordelia's best option is Kellam, who gives her +3 str and +5 def. Cordelia will only have one less def than Sumia at best. So Sumia is winning out in defense.

But I forgot to mention HP. Sumia also has 75% HP growth, which means she'll get around 7 HP increases in 9 level ups. That's.. exactly the same HP base as Cordelia. It's like the game designers tried to make Sumia be the same as Cordelia or something.

You're a good player, but you let your love for Cordelia get in the way, I think.

[PKL]

Cordelia's training takes EXP from Panne.

And yet people are criticizing Sumia for taking EXP from others....

Speed exists.

I've trained both Cordelia and Panne, your argument is invalid.

Sumia is a terrible midterm and longterm choice for a unit. Just use her when shes good with Fred and then drop her is the most sane course of action than hoping for a blessing.

Superflous speed exists. Cordelia has more than enough.

[Vashiane]

Actually, I haven't seen some of the arguments.

I go look.

Yeah. I distinctly remember the day for Henry vs. Inigo, and some of Cordelia's matches being pretty bad...

That... was the best Neutral choice I have ever seen

You should become an SMT protagonist good sire

Haha, thank you. :)

[Carter]

Vashiane..

Maybe you should've made one question labeled "Who do you like more?"

Now we got this big argument going on. But, it's good to see everyone having their daily arguments.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Carter

[Zerker]

horsebird ladies are having a cat-fight

Cordelia because Mercenary + Dark Mage

[Da Bear]

I've trained both Cordelia and Panne, your argument is invalid.

Sumia is a terrible midterm and longterm choice for a unit. Just use her when shes good with Fred and then drop her is the most sane course of action than hoping for a blessing.

You're SO right. You've done something thus it's automatically good. I've trained Sumia and Stahl and gotten Sumia to 10 easily.

....The bias is incredible.

[Nobody]

Sumia is a terrible midterm and longterm choice for a unit. Just use her when shes good with Fred and then drop her is the most sane course of action than hoping for a blessing.

That's just a lie. By endgame Sumia is still killing almost everything. Also, in the very last chapters she has galeforce, which makes her even better. I doubt you can list 10 units better than her on a no-grind run endgame, which means she will still be deployed, since there are more than ten deployment slots.

And unlike Cordelia, her Mag growth is good enough to be able to use magic against enemies with low resistence like GK and Generals. Which means that even against enemies with a lot of def, where Cordelia was supposed to be better, Sumia is the winner.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Nobody

[PKL]

You're SO right. You've done something thus it's automatically good. I've trained Sumia and Stahl and gotten Sumia to 10 easily.

....The bias is incredible.

Yeah...the SUMIA bias is incredible, you mean.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Experience are what make opinion

I mean, I won't exactly praise Cordelia because she does not solo Lunatic for me >_>

[Da Bear]

Yeah...the SUMIA bias is incredible, you mean.

If by that you mean your anti-Sumia bias sure.

I've never found Cordelia to be worthwhile when I have Sumia. I'm out

[Camilla]

Sumia for personality, but it's not like she has much to compete with for this anyways.

Cordelia's personality is just a girl obsessively in love with a boy (hence why they named her "Tiamo" in the Japanese version). She's boring.

Sumia is a cute girl that is shy and clumbsy and wants to improve herself overall. Extra props for cooking too.

Sumia again for gameplay. Cordelia is a pretty good unit and all, but I personally think Sumia is better.

Sumia for overall too obviously.

[shadykid]

yeah, this topic proves that Sumia's support collapses like a house of cards when up against not anti-voted characters

[Sorin]

That's peculiar. Let's say Sumia is level 10 by the beginning of Chapter 8. She has 6 chapters of availability over Cordelia so I don't think this is impossible. Assuming she grows 9 levels, that means she'll gain around 3 def increases since she has 30% growth, so for the sake of simplicity let's assume she gets 3 def total. So Sumia will have 8 def at base by the time Cordelia shows up. Guess who else has 8 defense? Cordelia.

Cordelia and Sumia have equal defense by the time both are around. But it doesn't end there. Sumia will also likely either have an A or S support with Frederick, which doesn't change her bonuses at all, since that's the best way to use Sumia if you are indeed using her. Sumia will now have 14 def thanks to Frederick and that's 16 def with a Tonic. Cordelia's best option is Kellam, who gives her +3 str and +5 def. Cordelia will only have one less def than Sumia at best. So Sumia is winning out in defense.

But I forgot to mention HP. Sumia also has 75% HP growth, which means she'll get around 7 HP increases in 9 level ups. That's.. exactly the same HP base as Cordelia. It's like the game designers tried to make Sumia be the same as Cordelia or something.

You're a good player, but you let your love for Cordelia get in the way, I think.

Not everybody will put her with Freddy however. By the logic you use she will be even with Cordelia at level 10...when she is a level 7. Forgive me if I'm wrong but that also implies that if Sumia doesn't get with Freddy she will be weaker than Cordelia.

Edit: So that brings in the limitations of who she can S rank.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Sorin