AM/PM Mafia - GAME OVER

[Elieson]

BBM, you and your claim of BPV (hit or not) is not confirming your alignment unless you flip town, so it's not automatically a town thing to say "I've been hit" even if someone claims to have shot you.

Just saiyan

[Strawman]

Hi, I got busy over day phase and didn't read or announce or anything, so sorry about that.

I actually thought Eclipse's posts were pretty clear that she would lynch Blitz and Shinori equally the most. I also got a slight town read from her.

Kirsche still looks scum to me.

Shinori looks scum too.

However...how you guys managed to lynch a mafia with 2 of my scum reads and just 1 of my town reads is questionable. I feel like with all the Shinori/Blitz opinions it could have just as easily gone to Shinori. I haven't decided what this means yet.

[Paperblade]

BBM that would require 3 of the day players to be scum which I think is pretty unlikely

Also BPV is a pretty good fakeclaim in a game where the town has an infinite vig AND backup vig

Also also can the day players actually read the night phase?

@Cowbell: If you were mafia, your team would be telling you to stop trying to lynch the uncc'd Vig in a game with a dead backup Vig. The fact that you continue to be a stubborn buffoon makes me think you don't have scumbuddies telling you to not do such stupid things, although I guess that didn't stop Blitz so idk. Maybe you are a genius trying to next level me.

[BBM]

@Elie- I never said BPV makes me town, just that it doesn't confirm me as scum either.

@Paperblade- You know why BPV makes a good fakeclaim in a game where town has an infinite vig and a backup vig? Because it's actually a useful role for town to have. It being a good fake doesn't make me scum. You might as well kill a Doctor with that logic.

Yeah I realized after posting that the thing about Cowbell having an inactive team doesn't really work but I didn't have time to correct myself. I would, however, really like him to explain why he thinks that Paperblade and I are likely to be scumbuddies, even if you disregard him being clear from Weapons's flip.

Also nobody's tried to reconcile me being scum with Blitz's flip even though I've been gunning for his lynch since D1.

I'll get to Strawman in a bit, kind of tired.

[Prims]

"gunning for somebody's lynch" doesn't mean too much when you're not actually voting for them and can only send people short message which can only be paraphrased

[BBM]

It still means that I tried to get Blitz lynched as much as I could for the phase I was in, from being the first one to point out anything scummy about him on D1 to sending people messages like twice a day telling them to lynch him.

You still need to respond to this btw:

How am I all but confirmed scum? Town has an infinite Vig with two lives in a game that is probably something like 10/4 if it's not multimafia. Yeah, the mafia might want a BPV for protection from the Vigs, but so might the town, to prevent a misvig when the numbers and mechanics lean in the mafia's favour. Unless you're saying I'm confirmed scum from PoE or something, in which case I still think Kay and Strawman are not clear or all that townie. I'll go over Strawman's posts again in the evening; no time right now. Also you don't actually mention Elie. Do you think he's town? If not, that's still two people who could be scum other than me FYPOV.

Also at the end of N0 you were like "you're the scummiest player itt atm but it's N0 so it doesn't mean much". Except it's two cycles later and I'm probably going to get shot a second time for this same stuff from N0 + shitty rolespec.

[Prims]

idk i just think youre scum and tbh even if you weren't your flip would be more helpful to the town than keeping you alive when people are paranoid about you

[Prims]

like i could try to explain it but it's 99% gut.

[BBM]

Rage I had the post in full and I lost it so now you only get half

His first important post, the claim, is useful, but I don't think it's as townie in context as Prims is saying it is. I'd already revealed that there was a second pair of duplicate roles, so I mean it would have been mentioned by someone sooner or later that there is a duplicate role clause.

After that he defends his claim from my accusation that it was a way for scum to seem like helpful town, which is fair enough and is why I didn't push that point after that.

Then he has a post with some reads that don't really say anything and some self-meta that's not even useful because he just calls himself scum in all situations? After that is a huge post waffling on me, which isn't scummy by itself since I asked him for his full thoughts IIRC.

part 2 after I eat

cut by prims: what would be most helpful is a townie not dying IMO and it's never been in my nature to let myself be lynched or vigged when I was looking scummy as town just so other people could stop being paranoid

[Prims]

yeah but you also seem really desperate and you're not the sort to just give up as scum either so SHRUG

[BBM]

I'm not the sort to give up as town either- I was equally desperate in C9++

In D1, his first announcement, he says I'm town and says he doesn't like Kirsche's reasoning/votes. His second one is just a bunch of reads. Neither has much explanation since limited wordcount and all.

And now N1, he has a listpost with day reads. His Scorri blurb is super scummy because it's like "I thought Scorri was town at first except then other people convinced me she was scum". He's just distancing himself from the Scorri lynch here by pushing blame onto other people. His Shinori blurb is also bad because he leaves it with a negative read on him even though everything he says about Shinori, he says is either town or null. How does that make sense? I don't like his Cowbell thing either, because it's just like the Scorri thing. He says he found Cowbell townie at first except now he's neutral because of what other people said.

What I find the worst about his N1, though, is that after that wall on N0 analyzing my posts, he goes to town on me in the D1 announcement and then back to scum on me in N1, all with little reasoning. I really dislike how he took so long to stop waffling and then after he did post a solid opinion, just took it back again at almost the earliest opportunity.

His N2 post a few hours ago is kind of just setting himself up to waffle again because he calls a few people scum and then says he hasn't decided how that's going to change since they were two of the people who got a scum lynched.

[BBM]

Another thing about Strawman- he has like no scumreads other than sort of me in the night phase. In fact I'm not sure he's said anything at all about anyone other than me from the night players since N0, other than to say he was taking Paperblade's claim at face value and asking Prims to stop lying so much or something.

[Strawman]

That was a nice subjective summary of my posts from your perspective. Did you decide anything from it?

i'll definitely agree with you that my reads on night players are not there.

You call it distancing myself from Scorri lynch. I never claim to not have supported her lynch, because I did. I'm just telling you where my change in opinion on her came from. And not going to lie, I take other player's opinions into consideration quite frequently.

I have changed my opinion on you several times, yes. I have also given reasons for the changes in those opinions. As more things happen in a game, opinions are allowed to change. Maybe you don't see it that way, but thats fine I guess.

If anytime re-evaluating a read I have on someone because of a recent development is waffling, well then yes, I waffle a lot.

I have a question for you BBM. What was your goal with those posts focusing on me? I mean, I get that at some level it was to shed some opinions on a player that hasn't been much in the spotlight. But I'm tempted to say that it looks like an attempt to just put a negative spin on everything I've done. So where is your conclusion? Am I scum? Should I be shot? Every post I made is scummy in your eyes, except for a few and those are only due to technicalities, right? If Elie hadn't requested other announcers to claim that would have been scummy. If Kay(not you) hadn't asked me to post my self-admitted waffly read on you, it would have been scummy. You point out the lack of explanation in the announcement just to say well theres the limit, so why even bother pointing out the lack of explanation? Because it sounds negative. People ask me to explain those reads, so I explain them all. It was later in the night, but I said I'd be busy and thats when I was free. Bah, list post you say. Well yeah if you want me to explain all of my day reads, you're getting a list.

Unless you're saying I'm confirmed scum from PoE or something, in which case I still think Kay and Strawman are not clear or all that townie. I'll go over Strawman's posts again in the evening; no time right now. Also you don't actually mention Elie. Do you think he's town? If not, that's still two people who could be scum other than me FYPOV.

I'm trying not to reach the same level of misrepresentation and twisting of actions towards you that has happened from you to me so I'm not going to do one of those quotation mark things where I say what I think this really sounds like you're saying, but I'll leave it here.

Also yes, you definitely look scummy to me now. And I don't even care how OMGUS'y that comes off as.

[Strawman]

I mean seriously. You so heavily imply that you're going to look through all of my posts to paint me in as scummy as a way as possible in a desperate attempt to get Prims to find someone else besides you scummy. You're desperately grasping to push him to find someone else scummy in that quote, and you completely misrepresented my actions in ways that do no justice to my intentions behind them in an attempt to do this.

[BBM]

That's not even a defence of yourself. You're just like "no you're twisting everything I'm saying". Yes, the goal of that summary was to say that I think you should be shot because I think you're the scummiest player in the night phase.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take other people's opinions into account, but the way you word makes it seem that though you did support the Scorri lynch, if it hadn't been for other people, you wouldn't have. It's still, IMO, a way to shift the blame for the mislynch away from yourself.

As for you waffling on me- I don't mind so much that you waffled as that after a large post describing your thought process on N0, you just seemingly arbitrarily

Also, I didn't point out the fact that there's a word limit in your announcements to make it look bad that you weren't giving an explanation there- I said it to admit that there was a reason for there not being an explanation there. Basically I was saying that that was null. I also said that your posts at the beginning that I attacked you for on N0 were also null. So your accusation that I'm painting everything you do in the scummiest fashion possible and not looking at any town intent behind them is flat-out wrong.

Nor did I ever say that the list-post was scummy simply because it was a list-post. That's you there, making your own judgement about list-posts. I looked at the reads IN the list-post and said why they were bad, not "list-posting is bad so you must be scum".

You're correct that the goal of my post just now was to try and convince Prims (and more importantly, Paperblade) that you're scum. That's what we do in mafia- we try and get other people to agree with our own feelings. Obviously I didn't make that post to convince myself that you're scum. I thought that before. So me trying to convince other people you're scum doesn't suddenly mean that I'm going to twist everything you say to look scummy anymore than anyone whom you might think is town would.

[Strawman]

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. I have tried to be as clear as possible on all of my reads this game saying pretty much exactly what enters my mind and how I processed it. I had an initial town read on Scorri, that is the truth. I did legitimately change my opinion of Scorri because of others' arguments against her, that is the truth and I have stated it 3 times now. You're looking at my intentions only as the intentions of mafia. You put no effort into seeing the other side. I waffle because I try to always try to look at both sides. As soon as I wrote that overly emotional response to you, you don't think I went back and said, shoot, I forgot to look at things from if he was town because I got wrapped up in my frustration. I did. And I decided that I have no understanding of what you're doing if you're town. This isn't scumhunting, this is distraction hunting. You didn't say I was scum to Prims initially. You said potential. You said not as town as Prims thinks. Let me go back through and look, you said. What a perfect opportunity. The heavy scum read wasn't there before, but you sure worked hard to make sure it was there after. Scummiest night player.That kind of opportunism to try and change the focus is what I saw. Once again, it is obvious you looked at what I have said only from the perspective of me being mafia, and I know that since that is your perspective, I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

Oh and your messaging Day 1 was what made me make up my waffly mind that you were town. I guess I didn't explain that one. My bad.

[BBM]

I can't respond comprehensively to everything in that post right now, but things like "potential scum" and "not as town" are maybe not 100% indicative of a scumread, but that's what they mean. That post seemed to make the point that I've only just started reading you as scum just now. That's not really true. I indicated during N1 that you would be one of my preferred choices for a shot if Paperblade wanted to shoot a night player.

Also, I think that regardless of what alignment either of us might be, we clearly have different playstyles. I look at something from both sides, but that doesn't mean that I present both the town and mafia intent behind every action unless I believe that both outcomes have a significant chance of occurring. If I think that one possibility is much more likely than the other, I'm not going to bother saying "this action could also mean this, but on the whole I don't think it does" every time I talk about something that person does.

Yes, it could be that what you're saying wrt Scorri is what happened. But now look at it from my POV. I know I'm town. Paperblade is confirmed town from the Weapons flip. I spoke on N0 about how I think town would need a vote-altering role, especially in the case where there's only one mafia, before Elie claimed (or even crumbed IIRC, though I might be wrong there). I'm pretty sure he's town. As I and others have theorized, there are probably two scum in each phase.

That means that 2/3 of you, Prims, and Kay are scum. I do think Kay is scum, but that's mostly gut about her RVS feeling weird. She doesn't have any posts after N0 so there's nothing more there really to say. Of you and Prims, I can find more town intent in his actions. His gambit of pretending he was the Vig makes little sense if he's scum because the chance of getting shot by the real Vig is too high. Also normally when Prims is mafia he tries too hard to be his normal cocky self. He's not always contrite as town, but he's always town when he's contrite. So now I weigh my reasons for finding Prims town vs the possible town motives behind your posts, and I think that the former are stronger than the latter.

[BBM]

Also sorry if anything I said pissed you off. That wasn't my intention.

[Prims]

@Strawman: what would you think right now if BBM died and flipped town?

@Mod: Has Kay been prodded?

[Sunwoo]

Kay has been prodded. Also seeking a possible sub.

[Elieson]

#thoughts #dayplayersshouldreadnightmore #hashtagsarenotradical

BBM v Straw is certainly a thing. Valid points but most of what's discussed is play style vs concrete action. I'm waiting for them to both shout "misrep" and for eclipse to explode in rage at it. There is something of notice between the two, tho. Their argument helps reinforce to me a distinction between alignments; I can't view both Straw & BBM being same-aligned, which is good (unless it's still multiball, like in .hack where a mafia and another team under a different name existed). There's just too much provided clarity for this to be a scumbuddy argument.

That said, with paper albeit clear barring the most ridiculous of setup scenarios, I'm looking at scum in Kay, Prims & BBM/Straw FMPOV. Ain't got nothing on Kay because RVS provides me with jack squat, and Prims is pretty town, so like BBM says, there's scum likelihood in Kay primarily due to PoE. I really hate PoE as a logical process but when you give us shit to work with, shit logic ends up getting used.

Re: Straw V BBM for pres 2016, I dunno. I feel like I see more forced argument terminology and symantics from BBM rather than straw, which I weigh heavily as far as scumreading. Straw's rebuttals, though a bit weaker, seem more naturally presented, and thus, more trustworthy IMO.

I'm at a loss as to who I should target with my persuade, FYI. Suggestions welcome, but I have a few vague ideas as for what I should do.

[Strawman]

@Strawman: what would you think right now if BBM died and flipped town?

@Mod: Has Kay been prodded?

I would be upset, and then I would suspect you, Eli and less so Kay(because theres less to work with).

[Paperblade]

Elieson, why do you think it's impossible for them to same aligned?

[Elieson]

Elieson, why do you think it's impossible for them to same aligned?

I guess I don't think it's /impossible/, just unlikely that they're both same aligned [meaning same team, multiball or otherwise].

Why though? Because the way in which they're barking back and forth at eachother. It's similar to the Urist Stormcloak V Magus/Mancer in Anonymafia, where their argument presented eachother as not aligned together (as in, hard to fake). Their debate against each other seemed too natural, not staged, and BBM/Straw's debate seems so as well.

Now I don't necessarily believe Straw is confirmed town. If It looks like I think that, thas my fault because #phonepostingatwork and rereading my own posts pre-posting is something I'm not doing very often lately. Tbh I have a pretty null/super slight town read on straw, primarily because he can't hold an opinion for very long.

[Paperblade]

Why does two people getting in a huge fight preclude them from both being town?