New tier list method

[Nobody]

Ok, tell me what cordelia can do that sumia can't

besides marrying the entire male cast not named Chrom

Third: Sumia really does nothing special. You should probably draft this game or something. Literally everything she does, aside from Ch5 ferrying Fred and Ch8 is replicable by other units.

Funnily enough, she's almost always the first unit to be picked...

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Florete]

Celes, I'm not going to bother responding to your posts until you can actually prove you're reading anything that's being said. This is so damn stupid.

[Camilla]

Dumb question about this... issue... with the girls. But...

1) Can Sumia preform without a Fred pair-up? Like, why should we assume every player will partner her with Fred?

2) Can Cordy function without the Nosferatu? Likewise, we can't assume every player will turn her into a Nosferatu tank. It may be powerful, but if that's the only way she's good...

3) Is Sumia useful before Cordy joins? I don't recall her being useful, but my PEMN after all.

There's a difference between assuming every player will pair Sumia up with Frederick and assuming perfect play for a tier list.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Sumia

[PKL]

Ok, tell me what cordelia can do that sumia can't

besides marrying the entire male cast not named Chrom

Actually gain stats and have a semblance of actual durability, without the need for a 30 def 45 str and 75 hp to work in your favor?

The odds are in Cordelia's favor: 90 hp 60 str and 45 def. Both double most things anyway so those are the stats that matter. And again, she has more options than Sumia in turnless when it comes to reclasses. How does knight sumia do?

[Nobody]

How does knight sumia do?

Really well, according to everyone that bothered using it.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Knight Sumia after reclass is just stupidly durable with any pair up and she can dodge and double well

Basically the generic "good unit lack movement" thing

Of course its been 4 month since I last used Knight Sumia, and 2(IIRC) month since I last soloed Lunatic with (Great)Knight Sumia

Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND

[MRDRHAWK]

This is a more cluster-effed tier list discussion than the SSB ones.

[Snowy_One]

There's a difference between assuming every player will pair Sumia up with Frederick and assuming perfect play for a tier list.

It's pretty important, though, to note things like this. If Sumia is ONLY good when paired with Fred (which, I assume, most people will be), than is it really fair to put her over Cordy who, I assume, doesn't need something like that?

Conversely, if Cordy is ONLY good when given the Nosferatu, is it really fair to put her over Sumia who, while possibly unable to Nosferatu-tank, can do other things?

Let's not have a Zihark/Mia style jam kill us right out of the gate either. If this is really unresolvable, let's focus on other things and just come back later.

[Da Bear]

I would say that Lon'qu should go up. I'd argue him above Cherche at least.

As much as I hate her I'll join those who say that Cordelia > Sumia in turnless play. I can give numbers to prove her nostanking abilities and with turns no longer making a factor units like Donnel, Stahl and Sully are likely to take her EXP. Cordy joins at a time where EXP is slightly less argued over. I will say that I prefer ChromSumia to FredSumia in turnless.

EDIT: Oh, wow Kellam is mid tier... nvm then lol

Edited September 14, 2013 by Lonely Wallcrab

[Snowy_One]

Where will Sully end up? My experience with her has been really good and I'd think her high at least, but am I missing something?

Also, Donnel. I'm not gonna talk about how bad he is, but how would one get him to the point where he can safely compete for the experience without babying in the first place?

[General Banzai]

Okay, for starters, can we start with the accusations that people on the other side are only defending said character out of bias? Dismissing people arguing for Cordelia as "Cordelia fanboys" and claiming people arguing for Sumia have "anti-Cordelia bias" is doing dick all except elevating tensions and making people come off as utter ponces.

Secondly, the fact that Sumia takes highly sought-after pairup partners is not a point in her favor, whether she is the "best" person to use those pairup partners or not. Honestly anyone early in the game would love Fred's +5 str/def +1 Mov. Assuming Sumia gets him out of resource optimization is ridiculous for the terms of this tier list, because this tier list is supposedly being made for the benefit of people who are not only not optimizing but don't even know HOW to optimize. Cordelia is more versatile and can function well under a variety of strategies and in a variety of scenarios. Sumia... less so.

Oh, and Celes, comparing people you disagree with to five-year-olds who don't understand basic truisms is the height of immaturity, even worse than the two-way street of fanboy/anti-fanboy accusations. I notice you did this to me when I simply came in on my first post asking "Why is availability important? (followed by arguments as to why availability is not important", and the fact that you slapped "not to insult you" in front of your insult to me didn't help.

I'm not actually insulted, but come on. That's just not mature behavior and simply undermines your own projected authority as the one running this list.

Let's not have a Zihark/Mia style jam kill us right out of the gate either. If this is really unresolvable, let's focus on other things and just come back later.

*coughcough* Tiki > Panne/Stahl

[Da Bear]

Where will Sully end up? My experience with her has been really good and I'd think her high at least, but am I missing something?

Also, Donnel. I'm not gonna talk about how bad he is, but how would one get him to the point where he can safely compete for the experience without babying in the first place?

Sully is... I don't think high but meh. I'll let more skilled people determine her.

No offense, but training Donnel is really not that hard, I'll be the first to admit that he does require some babying (less than you might think) but the thing about Donnel is you put in some work and get a practically indestructible beast in return. The payoff > the work in his case.

I'm on my phone so sorry about any thing that might look weird

[Snowy_One]

It's okay. As I mentioned, I don't have my copy and I only recently obtained Donnel, so I don't know how hard he is to train, just that he seems harder than he 'should' be.

[Tables]

...2. Sumia has at least A Frederick, probably S Frederick by the time Cordelia shows up.

Why are you insisting on this being probable when it's EXTREMELY unlikely, even if you Sumia x Fred solo'd from the moment she showed up until chapter 7?

C support takes 36 points. You can only get 27 per chapter. This means 2 chapters minimum without a support event tile or SoT. So that's very likely to occur after chapter 4/SS 1.

B support takes another 36 points. Again, two chapters unless you get lucky in SS 1/Chapter 4 (depending on which you do first).

A support takes 45 points. Two chapters almost certainly. So that's only occuring after SS 6.

S support is another 45 points. After SS 3. Cordelia should also be getting to C support at this point (she needs one paired up fight in chapter 7 to be able to reach C support after SS 3. There's literally no reason to think that won't happen).

Oh, and Celes, comparing people you disagree with to five-year-olds who don't understand basic truisms is the height of immaturity, even worse than the two-way street of fanboy/anti-fanboy accusations. I notice you did this to me when I simply came in on my first post asking "Why is availability important? (followed by arguments as to why availability is not important", and the fact that you slapped "not to insult you" in front of your insult to me didn't help.

Let's make one thing clear. Even a five year old could see why the insults Celes throws out at people he disagrees with are incredibly insulting and shouldn't be used unironically in a civil discussion on an internet forum, even if qualified with 'not to insult you'.

Lol people still using averages. I'm out.

Man, this is almost sigworthy levels of insane. How do you propose characters are compared? Averages (+ S.D.s) are basically the only way to reasonably do any comparisons. Unless you want us to tier every possible character for all of their possible growths at all points or something.

[Redwall]

Man, this is almost sigworthy levels of insane. How do you propose characters are compared? Averages (+ S.D.s) are basically the only way to reasonably do any comparisons. Unless you want us to tier every possible character for all of their possible growths at all points or something.

I suspect he's thinking of binomial distributions.

[Da Bear]

It's okay. As I mentioned, I don't have my copy and I only recently obtained Donnel, so I don't know how hard he is to train, just that he seems harder than he 'should' be.

Okay, I don't want to be pushy and this will probably mean nothing but what do you mean by "should"?

Man, this is almost sigworthy levels of insane. How do you propose characters are compared? Averages (+ S.D.s) are basically the only way to reasonably do any comparisons. Unless you want us to tier every possible character for all of their possible growths at all points or something.

In the eyes of PKL the fact that growths have been proved wrong means that they shouldn't be used for anything.

Except, apparently, showing that Cordelia has better stats than Sumia.

Also it was mentioned by that Indonesian kid JSND that I've done Gaius x Sumia. I can attest that it's a good pairing, under the correct circumstances. It's basically set up around either Fighter Gaius or Knight Sumia being used. Without a SS it goes from really good to meh.

[Chiki]

Why are you insisting on this being probable when it's EXTREMELY unlikely, even if you Sumia x Fred solo'd from the moment she showed up until chapter 7?

C support takes 36 points. You can only get 27 per chapter. This means 2 chapters minimum without a support event tile or SoT. So that's very likely to occur after chapter 4/SS 1.

B support takes another 36 points. Again, two chapters unless you get lucky in SS 1/Chapter 4 (depending on which you do first).

A support takes 45 points. Two chapters almost certainly. So that's only occuring after SS 6.

S support is another 45 points. After SS 3. Cordelia should also be getting to C support at this point (she needs one paired up fight in chapter 7 to be able to reach C support after SS 3. There's literally no reason to think that won't happen).

3, 4, 5, 6, 7, P1, P2 = 7 chapters.

7 x 27 = 189.

36 + 36 + 45 + 45 = 162.

Wait. Wait wait wait!!

189 - 27 = 162.

You only need 6 chapters to marry Sumia to Frederick.

Extremely unlikely my hat.

Oh, and Celes, comparing people you disagree with to five-year-olds who don't understand basic truisms is the height of immaturity, even worse than the two-way street of fanboy/anti-fanboy accusations. I notice you did this to me when I simply came in on my first post asking "Why is availability important? (followed by arguments as to why availability is not important", and the fact that you slapped "not to insult you" in front of your insult to me didn't help.

Some more beautiful selective reading going on here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=42982&p=2620653

I mean no offense towards you when I say this, but a 5 year old could figure out why availability is important.

I meant no offense towards you in any way. I was just being honest. A 5 year old could figure out why availability is important.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[General Banzai]

Oh I'm sorry, "I mean no offense towards you when I say this" is so much better than "Not to insult you." Thanks for pointing out how I selectively misinterpreted what you said as what I said you said, because they are clearly very different things.

Not to mention a five year old probably couldn't figure out what the word availability means, let alone spell it. Or read it.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Do your research man, you need 8 chapter to marry Sumia to Fred

However, you can get C Chrom AND A Fred in 6 chapters

Edited September 15, 2013 by JSND

[Chiki]

Do your research man, you need 8 chapter to marry Sumia to Fred

However, you can get C Chrom AND A Fred in 6 chapters

I was using the numbers Tables gave me. Blame him.

Where's your source for 8 chapters?

I think I may put Tiki above Stahl but I'm not so sure about Panne, who makes a good Wyvern Rider.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[Da Bear]

I'm hardly one to talk but I think this would work better if people didn't have to be so aggressive about this. Olwen comparing people who disagree with him to 5 year olds is pretty lame, even if its not meant as an insult.

What if we decided tp stop caring so much about Sumia vs. Cordelia? I don't think anyone, except PKL, thinks that they aren't both good. Sumia is only one slot over Cordelia, arguing this much over something that little seems a bit unnecessary to me.

[Chiki]

I wasn't comparing anyone to five year olds, nor did I say that the people who disagree with me are five year olds.

I was trying to say that the concept of availability is easy to understand. There's a huge difference. Honestly you guys are just making things up.

I'm gonna be testing out Dark Mage Cordelia x Ricken later tomorrow.

[Vashiane]

I wasn't comparing anyone to five year olds, nor did I say that the people who disagree with me are five year olds.

I was trying to say that the concept of availability is easy to understand. There's a huge difference. Honestly you guys are just making things up.

I'm gonna be testing out Dark Mage Cordelia x Ricken later tomorrow.

My sister's done this pairing before: that's a pretty good pairing to use for magical!Cordelia, and makes a nice magical!Luna-proccing Severa to boot.

[Da Bear]

I wasn't comparing anyone to five year olds, nor did I say that the people who disagree with me are five year olds.

I was trying to say that the concept of availability is easy to understand. There's a huge difference. Honestly you guys are just making things up.

I'm gonna be testing out Dark Mage Cordelia x Ricken later tomorrow.

Your phrasing made it sound like something more than that. If that was what your point was why not just say that?

Ricken x Cordelia is pretty much your best bet if going Nostanking.

[Chiki]

I said "I mean no offense when I say this." Is that not extremely clear?

What would be the best way to use Cordelia? Train her as a peg knight then change to Dark Mage when I get to chapter 13?