New tier list method

[euklyd]

Both of them can't be active at the same time, so it's only 15 at one range

Without stacking it'd be a 5% difference.

I just tested to make sure, and they do seem to stack; Henry vs. Roy (R&R3) at 2-range gets 70% projected Hit, and at 1-range he gets 85%, which is a 15% difference, not 5%.

Also worked the same way for Cynthia with Henry in the back.

[General Horace]

just want to say you can find enemy stats here: http://kamikouryaku.com/fe/kakusei/?10%BE%CF%20%BA%C6%B5%AF%20%A5%CF%A1%BC%A5%C9

not really contributing to the discussion beyond that, not worth it

[Constable Reggie]

Without stacking it'd be a 5% difference.

I just tested to make sure, and they do seem to stack; Henry vs. Roy (R&R3) at 2-range gets 70% projected Hit, and at 1-range he gets 85%, which is a 15% difference, not 5%.

Also worked the same way for Cynthia with Henry in the back.

I don't have access to Awakening right now, but I remember testing this and swear that it didn't stack. If I'm wrong, my bad

[Tables]

Both of them can't be active at the same time, so it's only 15 at one range

I'm pretty sure they do. Basically all other skills stack, why wouldn't they? And having just tested, base Tharja (74 hit) had 74% hit against an enemy with 24 avoid at 1 range.

[Junkhead]

Some of you people are seriously retarded. Sumia apparently needs Fredrick to function? lmao motherfuckers. Sumia can support Sully as well and can basically imitiate the Cordelia/Stahl combo with her. Sumia can also still pair up with people she can't support with too; for example, she likes Kellam's bonuses a lot, even if she can't get any ranks with him. Yeah, it's not optimal but c'mon.

I always do AvatarxSumia, it works somewhat, but probably not as well to get Sumia being useful right off the bat without having to waste money on forges. She also really appreciates the Def bonus, going into 3HKO range from Soldiers & Mercenaries/Myrmidons). But I like your idea about SumiaxSully because she's also a long term unit, while Frederick will usually be demoted to a support bot around midgame.

[Snowy_One]

How do we handle pair-ups in tiering anyways? I'm sure that if we paired up a really low-tier unit with a high-tier unit it would be great for the low-tier unit, but how would that be reflected on the list?

[General Banzai]

How do we handle pair-ups in tiering anyways? I'm sure that if we paired up a really low-tier unit with a high-tier unit it would be great for the low-tier unit, but how would that be reflected on the list?

resource consumption

[Da Bear]

How do we handle pair-ups in tiering anyways? I'm sure that if we paired up a really low-tier unit with a high-tier unit it would be great for the low-tier unit, but how would that be reflected on the list?

Pair up bots get at least partial credit for any kills that wouldn't be attainable without them.

Example; in the Prologue a +speed avatar can not one round fighters and mages without Chrom's pair up boosts, thus Chrom gets partial credit for the kill because while he didn't perform the kill the kill couldn't have happened without him. MU still gets full credit for performing the kill.

Different example; Frederick is paired into Sumia (whenever really) so she can 1RKO. Sumia takes a hit that would have been lethal without Frederick then kills the enemy. Frederick gets full credit because he gave Sumia both the strength boost needed to kill and kept her alive for the kill, without Frederick Sumia would be dead and no damage done, thus Frederick gets full credit while Sumia gets ppartial credit because while she was the unit who killed, she couldn't have done anything without Frederick. Frederick also gets a cool boost for keeping Sumia alive.

Think of kills as like a 150 percent system.

This is just my way of doing it though, if Chiki disagrees it's not how the list does it and there probably are flaws that I've overlooked.

[Realm Traveller]

Holy crap.

Might just be me but... in what world is Miriel better than Gauis Sticky-Fingers D:

[Nobody]

Holy crap.

Might just be me but... in what world is Miriel better than Gauis Sticky-Fingers D:

in the world of nosferatu

[capocal]

I played with very little knowledge of the game my first time (on hard mode).

I found Panne, Robin, Cordelia, Lon'qu, and Cherche most useful. I don't think I used any mages (my MaMU was +Str/-Res mod). From my experience, Nowi is the most over-hyped character on the list. She starts out pretty bad, so if the RNG gods can make it an uphill battle. That, and you rate mages very highly.

edit: Oh, and Lucina is also very strong, regardless of mother.

Edited September 19, 2013 by capocal

[YayForYuffie]

Nowi's rated high for her great growths, her permanent 1-2 range, being a Manakete, and having green hair.

Just throw her a defence tonic and/or a defence boost and she'll be laughing all the way across the battlefield. Henry would be proud!

[Narga_Rocks]

I think maybe we should start making tiers based on making the game easy. This is very subjective and meaningless, but there's not much of a choice since no one really cares.

A tier based on the subjectivity of making the game easy may get people interested.

Or maybe, more objectively, two things: reliability and combat potential. Intuitively, it's obvious that a unit with high reliability and combat potential will make the game easy. Though earlier I said intuitive doesn't mean correct, we kinda have to rely on intuitions to get people interested.

Would people be interested in me making an FE13 tier list based on reliability and combat?

What happened to this? How is it "easy" to know every single #1 choice that you can make? I thought the whole point of the list was that people were sick of lists with:

All stat boosters possible go on Fe10 Jill and one speedwing on Haar and ... or

fe9 Marcia gets a crapton of bexp so she can promote ASAP and rampage

etc

And so you were going to make a list where people didn't need to know where every single stat-booster/pair-up went and you'd judge how good a character is just by who lets you steamroll if you don't know anything.

Also, you really don't have to tier every instance of each character separately. For years people have been tiering just fine without earmarking resourses for specific characters and still placing them based on sometimes a player might give it and sometimes a player might put it elsewhere. The idea is if you know almost nothing about the game but you don't do stupid things like sending pegs against archers, how good are units? You don't know to put each second seal in a certain unit or each statbooster. I'll grant you that it doesn't take a genius to decide to buy a ton of nosferatus and put it on anyone that can use them, but asking for more than that turns the tier list into a "do this this and this in order to make your units line up in this order from best to worst, and if you don't know what resources to put where then this list doesn't help you".

Now, for the record, I am 100% a-ok with lists where you need to know where all the resources go in order to understand unit rankings. I just thought THIS LIST was created to be something different. But apparently it's not.

[Snowy_One]

I think it has a lot to do with trying to cope with other people and the like. If I sat down and made a FE9 tier list (the game I'm most familiar with by far) with that ideal in mind, I could do it in a heartbeat. Actually, I think I may be the perfect test subject for this list now that I think about it. I'm familiar with the series, but since my copy is gone (won't come back until next week at earliest. Freaking Vermont trips.) I can judge the arguments without any game-based bias since I haven't been able to do more than play a small amount of the game, certainly no farther than where I'd see a casual player seeking the help of a list to find out stuff like 'is Sumia/Donnel worth it' or 'Is Sully really this awesome, or is mine just lucky'. Course, doing that would require people accepting my judgements.

[General Banzai]

I think it has a lot to do with trying to cope with other people and the like. If I sat down and made a FE9 tier list (the game I'm most familiar with by far) with that ideal in mind, I could do it in a heartbeat. Actually, I think I may be the perfect test subject for this list now that I think about it. I'm familiar with the series, but since my copy is gone (won't come back until next week at earliest. Freaking Vermont trips.) I can judge the arguments without any game-based bias since I haven't been able to do more than play a small amount of the game, certainly no farther than where I'd see a casual player seeking the help of a list to find out stuff like 'is Sumia/Donnel worth it' or 'Is Sully really this awesome, or is mine just lucky'. Course, doing that would require people accepting my judgements.

no no no no no

if you made a tier list it would only end in tears

it would be a tear list

[Snowy_One]

Funny. Not really though. The point I'm trying to make is that, ATM, I'm pretty much the exact sort of person this list would be made for. Someone with only a casual knowledge of the game who understands its mechanics but isn't going to obsess over minmaxing or turn-shaving.

[General Banzai]

Funny. Not really though. The point I'm trying to make is that, ATM, I'm pretty much the exact sort of person this list would be made for. Someone with only a casual knowledge of the game who understands its mechanics but isn't going to obsess over minmaxing or turn-shaving.

That's not the person who should be making this tier though, honestly

[Narga_Rocks]

That's not the person who should be making this tier though, honestly

Certainly not. However, his point, I believe, was that the list was to be made for people like him, not by people like him. Or I hope so, anyway. If he knows basic mechanics and that's about it, the list tells him who to use assuming he only has that knowledge. Rather than, you know, made for people who know all the ins and outs and can minmax their way to epic characters and thus a different set of characters are the best.

[General Banzai]

Certainly not. However, his point, I believe, was that the list was to be made for people like him, not by people like him. Or I hope so, anyway. If he knows basic mechanics and that's about it, the list tells him who to use assuming he only has that knowledge. Rather than, you know, made for people who know all the ins and outs and can minmax their way to epic characters and thus a different set of characters are the best.

Yeah, I agree with that 100%, but he was saying he should be making the list, because he was the person it was being made for

[dondon151]

okay this is a super old post relative to the thread but i didn't bother sticking my head in here until now and this grabbed my attention:

I'm honestly surprised I'm getting all this negativity just for trying to be original.

smash fanatic has tried to do this several times before you even joined SF. this sort of tier list is like the ones back in 2007. so much for originality.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, I agree with that 100%, but he was saying he should be making the list, because he was the person it was being made for

You might be right about his post. Which is "awesome" logic he'd be using.

okay this is a super old post relative to the thread but i didn't bother sticking my head in here until now and this grabbed my attention:

smash fanatic has tried to do this several times before you even joined SF. this sort of tier list is like the ones back in 2007. so much for originality.

Actually, if you read the more recent posts, you'd find that this list is nothing like smash's. It's like taking the "worst" part of LTC lists (earmarking resources) and the worst part of the 2007 lists (we are going lazily but not too lazily and what pace is that?) and combining them. It's awesome.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Snowy_One]

You might be right about his post. Which is "awesome" logic he'd be using.

Erm, what I'm saying is that, since I'm the kind of person this list would be made for (at least until I sit down and do some serious number-crunching and get my copy back), using me and my lack of knowledge (and familiarity with how tiers work) to determine if an argument is relevant or too overly-specific is a useful tool that should be used. Especially as an argument-resolver.

Edit: In other words, I am the perfect guinea pig for these arguments as well as the perfect question-asker.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Narga_Rocks]

You might be right about his post. Which is "awesome" logic he'd be using.

Erm, what I'm saying is that, since I'm the kind of person this list would be made for (at least until I sit down and do some serious number-crunching and get my copy back), using me and my lack of knowledge (and familiarity with how tiers work) to determine if an argument is relevant or too overly-specific is a useful tool that should be used. Especially as an argument-resolver.

Edit: In other words, I am the perfect guinea pig for these arguments as well as the perfect question-asker.

That's better. Basically, you can tell people if something is too minmaxie. Trouble is what about bias? But if, say, there was another one or two people like you then hopefully it could remove bias.

[Snowy_One]

Even if there isn't, removing the bias of leaning towards min-maxy is a bit more important. Sides, I usually explain my reasoning behind my thoughts at least somewhat.

If you were going to get more people like me though you'd need to fine people with a knowledge of tiers who also have only a minor amount of familiarity with the game and only a small amount of minmaxing. The low familiarity serves as an extra buffer against minmaxing as well as keeps it 'casual' as opposed to too-knowledgeable.