Semi-Precious Mafia - Mafia wins!

[Bard]

I've already stated I've seen no towniness, but I suppose you conveniently ignored that.

That's not the point. You're supposed to look for Scum actions, not the absence of Town actions.

Because only scum would...rather scumhunt (whether you feel my scumhunting is quality or not is one thing; the fact that I'm doing it is another) than care about their own lynch? What kind of awful frawgic is this?

That's putting words in my mouth. Though to retort to that particular bit: In my experience, when defending oneself becomes difficult, Scum would rather smokescreen by throwing attention onto someone else. That, in particular, you don't have anything solid on "this is why x is scum" means you fit the profile of someone who lacks the Town's paranoia and doesn't scrutinise people's actions appropriately.

Refa, why is scorri more scummy than you are? What's in scorri that's not in Refa? Importantly, what changed between this post and your vote on scorri that you move scorri from null to scummiest?

To note I keep reading Wayward Winds' post and there's an incredible amount of waffle in it. Wayward, who is scum and why?

Shin, this post was a while ago. It's about time you share with us who is scum and why, so cease your active lurking and contribute.

[scorri]

Your explanation requires kirsche not to make use of his Gravedigger ability, when there is no reason that he shouldn't. In addition, it expects us to believe that kirsche did nothing on N1 and you did nothing on N2 (which guarantees us that you're a vanilla townie at best, which isn't much of a guarantee at all). I agree that simple solutions make sense, however I fail to see what's so much simpler about mafia having a roleblock on their team and managing to target the right person instead of mafia having a Sneak on their team and just making use of that ability every night so far.

No, no, there is reason for that. See, kirsche's role was limited. Only once. And if scum has a roleblock, why in the world would they steal a roleblock? Why would kirsche do something if he had no reason to? And no, it doesn't guarantee that I'm a vanilla townie. I could just have a passive role. I'm not confirming one way or the other what I am, since I have no reason to claim my role right now. And, I don't know about you, but I don't recall having ever seen a role that allows someone else to be a ninja except in Kirby mafia which was a bunch of odd roles and also this game was created before Kirby was played.

But where's the scum intent in that? At best, it's a null read.

Scum: Oh no, someone has a case on me that's really legit and I have no answers for him. I'm going to just 'scumhunt' and ignore that case on me!

[Refa]

That's not the point. You're supposed to look for Scum actions, not the absence of Town actions.

I've already looked for scum actions. The absence of town actions helps me to confirm that I'm not mislynching a townie who made a genuine mistake.

That's putting words in my mouth. Though to retort to that particular bit: In my experience, when defending oneself becomes difficult, Scum would rather smokescreen by throwing attention onto someone else. That, in particular, you don't have anything solid on "this is why x is scum" means you fit the profile of someone who lacks the Town's paranoia and doesn't scrutinise people's actions appropriately.

Why is my case not solid? You haven't proved any of my points wrong, rather you just seem content with making blanket statements like "his argument is based on associative reads, rather than the (three significant) posts that scorri has made, what a scummy thing to do".

No, no, there is reason for that. See, kirsche's role was limited. Only once.

...How do you know that? It said ONCE during the night, he may copy the abilities. Nowhere did it make mention it was a One Shot Gravedigger, neither did it say as such in the opening.

Eclipse, can you confirm?

And no, it doesn't guarantee that I'm a vanilla townie. I could just have a passive role.

OK, that is more than possible.

Scum: Oh no, someone has a case on me that's really legit and I have no answers for him. I'm going to just 'scumhunt' and ignore that case on me!

Scum doesn't benefit from that (and Bard's case on me is anything but really legit). Try harder.

[eclipse]

...How do you know that? It said ONCE during the night, he may copy the abilities. Nowhere did it make mention it was a One Shot Gravedigger, neither did it say as such in the opening.

Eclipse, can you confirm?

TEE-HEE~!

(I'm not clarifying mechanics of roles that don't belong to the player in question, unless I see a really good reason to)

[scorri]

"Once during the night"

... "Once"

"Once"

Once during the night *highly* implies that it's a one use role.

[Refa]

How would you know that for sure? Especially since Eclipse just stated that she wasn't confirming it either way?

[scorri]

You're right. I don't know for sure. I'm *assuming* that since it states in the role PM, that it can be used once during the night, that means *gasp* it can be used once. But lets say I'm wrong. What else would that mean?

[Refa]

It would mean that kirsche would have no reason not to use his role N1.

[scorri]

No, that's not answering my question. If the once during the night doesn't mean that he had one use of his role, what else could it mean?

[Refa]

He could use it once every night.

[Refa]

Regardless, let's say you're right (Eclipse is not confirming either way). If what you say is true regarding this mafia and Kirby Mafia, then perhaps there is no sneak. Perhaps kirsche didn't do anything last night. However, that still doesn't disprove my theory that there is a scum ninja.

[scorri]

Question. In any other role you've literally ever had in any mafia game, has it said that you can only use your role once per night? Or has it just assumed that you know that you can only use it once per night? His role would be stupidly broken if he could use it multiple times per night. You're just arguing stupid semantics at this point. And I never said that there couldn't be a scum ninja, I just think it's pointless to argue about it when there's no evidence one way or the other to support your theory. And it doesn't help your case one way or the other since even if you did assume that I was ninja, it would still be basing your case off of assumptions and not backing it with fact.

[Bard]

I like how Refa cherrypicks what comments to respond to, and now you're just splitting hairs over rolespec.

[Wayward Winds]

Is there even a role that allows someone to project ninja onto another player?

I'm going to take a completely different approach for the gravedigger thing and ask; isn't that likely to get overpowered if it goes on too long? The more players who go under, the more roles he could have theoretically chosen from. Once every night, that's sort of unbalanced to have that much variety available. I'm also of the opinion that, even if it had been multiuse, it would have decayed after, say two uses. I mean, my ability was next to useless, and it only lasted two nights.

Anyway, that's irrelevant. Either Kirsche used it on N1, or he didn't. I don't think there's a 'make my scumbuddy a ninja' role, so I'm saying he didn't and therefore we have another role blocker. Feel free to form your own opinions though.

So, who do I find scummy? Truthfully, I don't know. SB and Shin are right to be suspicious of me, and even I'll admit that last post didn't really come to any conclusions. That's because I haven't got any clear cut opinions at the moment, just varying levels of suspicion. I'm not changing my vote yet, for the simple reason Elieson hasn't actually changed my mind on Bear's previous actions. Given those Votals and that I've got until 8am local time, maybe the night's activities will give me more insight. I'll be up early, I'll have a proper look then.

...Or maybe I'll just miss a sudden hammer from being asleep. Seven players, that means three to lynch, four to hammer?

[eclipse]

Yes, those lynch/hammer numbers are right~!

[Refa]

Question. In any other role you've literally ever had in any mafia game, has it said that you can only use your role once per night? Or has it just assumed that you know that you can only use it once per night? His role would be stupidly broken if he could use it multiple times per night. You're just arguing stupid semantics at this point.

Yes...

And I never said that there couldn't be a scum ninja, I just think it's pointless to argue about it when there's no evidence one way or the other to support your theory. And it doesn't help your case one way or the other since even if you did assume that I was ninja, it would still be basing your case off of assumptions and not backing it with fact.

How about the fact that WW tracked you and came up with nothing? Regardless, considering I voted you before I even responded to WW's post suggesting that there could be a ninja, it clearly didn't factor into my reasons for voting for you in the first place.

I like how Refa cherrypicks what comments to respond to, and now you're just splitting hairs over rolespec.

I like how I'm expecting to respond to everything when the only noticeable omission I have is your vote on me, which I'm responding to now atm anyways.

[Refa]

So, who do I find scummy? Truthfully, I don't know. SB and Shin are right to be suspicious of me, and even I'll admit that last post didn't really come to any conclusions. That's because I haven't got any clear cut opinions at the moment, just varying levels of suspicion. I'm not changing my vote yet, for the simple reason Elieson hasn't actually changed my mind on Bear's previous actions. Given those Votals and that I've got until 8am local time, maybe the night's activities will give me more insight. I'll be up early, I'll have a proper look then.

No opinions on me/Bard/scorri? Really?

[scorri]

Ok, first off, what role did you have that specified you could only use said role once per night phase?

How about the fact that WW tracked you and came up with nothing? Regardless, considering I voted you before I even responded to WW's post suggesting that there could be a ninja, it clearly didn't factor into my reasons for voting for you in the first place.

How about the fact that me being a ninja is literally only one possible explaination of *many* including that I could be a vanilla, I could be a passive role, I could have chosen to idle my role, or WW could be lying about his results? And if it's factoring into your read on me now, it does matter.

[scorri]

So Refa: If you were wrong about me, who else is scum?

[Wayward Winds]

Last post before I disappear to bed;

No opinions, mainly because my tired brain can't keep up with this sudden mass of discussion (I've spent most of the day working on a university assignment, my brain is full of completely irrelevant bits and bobs about household dust). I've generally felt you (Refa) are more Town, which makes it difficult for me to immediately turn around and shout SCUUUMMM!!! even with the sudden attack by Scorri and Bard. For Scorri, most of the arguments against her seemed to stem from inactivity (not anymore!) and early defensiveness, which I never bought into as scum behaviour. Bard... pass, nothing comes to mind that makes him definitively 'scummy' in my opinion, although his sudden aggressiveness is odd enough to make me wonder. Also still getting that weird vibe from before, but I still can't pin it down and I'm not pointing fingers on 'vibes'.

Anyway, I'll have about an hour tomorrow to come up with opinions before D3 ends. At least my head should be clearer then.

...How on earth can a 'Scorri didn't visit anyone' be conclusive proof either way? It's not like I'm claiming to be a cop here!

...And just for the record, the official description of a Gravedigger is;

-Gravedigger (Active)
May use the roles of dead players at night, typically only once per player.

...Kirsche could have been saving up Poly's roleblock for a more appropriate time.

...SB could also have targeted a Commuter, in which case we don't have another role blocker on the loose;

-Commuter (Active)
May commute to make self untargetable that night.

...But you experienced players will know all this, won't you?

[Refa]

Doing some online work at the moment (and as you can see, getting distracted; will respond to scorri and Bard later), but just wanted to prod Shin/SB. Phase ends in like 8 hours, so yeah.

[eclipse]

Nine hours and five minutes, to be exact.

[Refa]

Oh, right...what she said!

[Shin]

Shin: Why aren't you voting?

Because Shin was playing Lasertag! YEAH! Mostly because I was going to vote Eli, but I missed a night of sleep trying to fix my cycle after flu... SCIENCE!

Firstly, I'd like to say my read didn't jump from scum to town, it went from "not really active and kinda defensive" to "eh, dun look amazing" to "ok, probably town". I pondered some bussing with kirsche, but found that really didn't have enough substance to warrant a full case.

Refa, it's possible to not have many town tells, but also not appear terribly scummy. Just because scorri hasn't exactly helped massively doesn't indicate scum. This seems rather opportunistic. I'm not too fussed with how various roles are worded, I have to look them up half the time anyway, but the argument between you and scorri seems pretty pointless on both ends. Despite posting so much, Refa's managed to fly under my radar, I've noticed that he never really responded to my prods, and actually considered SB more town after he backed off of DA BEAR.

Bard, if you want some concrete reads, I'm hedging on Eli being scum, mostly for DA BEAR's shoddy play and terrible content. SB's sudden backing out strikes me as shifty. Wayward's constant activity yet rather empty content is starting to strike me as weird too.

I really don't like Eli or SB, but if we want to avoid a no lynch, I figure i could commit to DA COLONEL. I probably won't be around for phase end, so I'll vote now.

##SoFingerLickingGood: Refa

[charlie_]

I was about to go to sleep, and then there was a sudden discussion spike. Of course.

Don't really get why Shin draws attention to Elie's reads differing from DA BEAR's. They're not the same slot, so yeah.

Mafia will kill townie players if there are no claimed roles so they don't get PoEd. You look into things when obvtown players are surviving for far too long: offsite example, Serela the mason surviving till endgame after his buddy dies night 1 because he was townreading the scumteam. Nightkill analysis happens in places like that, not here.

Refa's scorri case is bad as he never really talks about scorri as a player (except for when he says that he disagreed with the point BBM made against her. He also paints her vote on Shin as an omgus which it really didn't feel like to me. He's pretty much pushing the reads of other people instead of his own so he can say it wasn't his fault if scorri flips town. There's also some other stuff later on like "at best you're a vanilla" which might as well have "so your mislynch won't matter as much" tacked on the end. Why are you so fixated on a Ninja anyway?

All I know about my night action was that it failed. It could have been caused by a Hooker, but it also could've been caused by a Commuter or any number if other roles and circumstances (of course, you got this as I was writing, so it's sort of a moot point). Wayward: if you thought scorri was town, why would you decide to track her? That whole post was a massive wall with pretty much no scumhunting, just waffling.

Was about to vote Refa. I'm glad I clicked preview.