Snooping Around Mafia - Game Over

[Prims]

BBM: I'm leaning town on Poly but waiting for him to answer my question. Doesn't seem like his town reads are just to cover his ass, at least not yet.

You're reactive because you constantly want to get to the bottom of why people suspect you, in a way I'm reading as nervousness rather than just defending yourself.

[BBM]

Sorry for not wanting confirmed town to find me scummy? There's also not that much else to say or do while SB and Baldrick are asleep or at class or whatever.

Refa should state an opinion on me though. IIRC he was around when Prims voted me and didn't really say much about it.

[MRDRHAWK]

Poly, why is Eury actively answering questions a towntell? Scum can also do this. Also, for somebody who you claim has a grasp of scumhunting, he hasn't actually been explaining who is scum and why, like, at all.

1. He's showing a willingness to cooperate with the efforts to find scum. I doubt he's playing it newbscum because most newbscum I've seen are very easy to spot due to their being unwilling to give off reads or do anything to out their scumbuddies.

2. Simple enough; he probably just isn't reading anyone as full-out scum yet, so he can't give any reasons behind his scumreads because there aren't any. At the very least, he is trying to draw some conclusions in a detailed manner, despite limited information.

[BBM]

1) But Prims is right in that Eury hasn't really given reads on anyone. When I pressured her to say something about me or Prims she just backed away and said she'd like some time and more information before she committed to anything.

2) This contradicts 1). You say she's being willing in giving her reads away there, but here you say it's perfectly okay for her to have no real scumreads yet.

I don't really get the logic behind this read at all. I don't like how he had to be prodded several times to give more reasons for his reads, did so only after someone voted for him, and then gave shitty reasons to back them up afterwards.

[Eurykins]

Well, it's just as I said and attested to myself: I know I haven't given out any definite reads, because I don't feel strongly enough with any of them to warrant as such. There are people here that I'm wary/concerned about, sure, but I don't care to gun after them unless I feel the need to. Which probably comes off as having few to no opinions, which is one way of looking at it.

I like to get to know/have a better feel of the picture, but all I'm staring at is fragments of puzzle pieces (which obviously comes with the game at hand). So it's why I've also not thrown out any votes (aside from the very first one on Shino, given his vote against me. T_T) or stated my positions on everyone at hand.

[MRDRHAWK]

1) But Prims is right in that Eury hasn't really given reads on anyone. When I pressured her to say something about me or Prims she just backed away and said she'd like some time and more information before she committed to anything.

2) This contradicts 1). You say she's being willing in giving her reads away there, but here you say it's perfectly okay for her to have no real scumreads yet.

1) The likely scenario is that she's trying not to throw out reads without any info, which is fine with me; after all, newbtown is probably worse than newbscum simply because it serves as a detriment to the rest of us.

2) Scumreads are harder to pick up than townreads, which is why I felt this way. My wording probably sucked ass, but having faint townreads and no real scumreads seems perfectly viable with the way this game's gone so far.

I feel like I'm going to have to claim soon.

[BBM]

I'm not as suspicious of the fact that you don't have that many reads yet as I am of Poly saying you do and then saying it's okay you don't.

[MRDRHAWK]

She's making the effort to gather reads, which IMO makes her seem to be a more obvious town than anyone else so far. The fact that the reads aren't piling up yet is fine as long as she doesn't abandon any attempts to gather the reads down the road.

[BBM]

1) The likely scenario is that she's trying not to throw out reads without any info, which is fine with me; after all, newbtown is probably worse than newbscum simply because it serves as a detriment to the rest of us.

2) Scumreads are harder to pick up than townreads, which is why I felt this way. My wording probably sucked ass, but having faint townreads and no real scumreads seems perfectly viable with the way this game's gone so far.

I feel like I'm going to have to claim soon.

Again, I don't mind so much that she's being cautious or that she doesn't have that many reads yet. It's her first game; I'm willing to cut her some slack. But if she's not giving reads, then how can you tell she's making the effort to do so? It doesn't take a lot of effort to say that you have no real reads and are sort of unsure about what's going on.

It's like 5 hours into the phase and I'm the only person who's legitimately suspicious of you. Why would you have to claim soon?

[MRDRHAWK]

Better to do it now than to let the votes pile up and I get hammered before I can prove I'm not scum.

Also, on a slightly related note, were you able to get any read on Shinori before he got killed off? Just out of curiosity.

[Eurykins]

Concerning Shinori: I think he only posted twice before he got shot? And I figured his comments were laid-back enough- startin' the posts with a welcoming vote 'for the newbie' and then the other comment to Refa. Nothing really suspicious was said or done, and I certainly didn't expect him to get killed like that. There was nothing hinting at either 'super townie' or 'super scummy', which I suppose is understandable given his rather abrupt death.

[Eurykins]

*Thoug his joking and whatnot seemed to give an air of casualness, which led me to wonder if he was a townie rather than mafia, since he had nothing to seemingly protect/hide while posting.

[Eurykins]

*Though

[BBM]

No, I wasn't able to get a read on Shinori off the two RVS posts he made. Why is it relevant?

Why would anyone turbo you this early? I don't think that Prims was serious even about my turbolynch, or he would have answered my question. Seems kind of jumpy idk.

[MRDRHAWK]

With only seven people, turbos are easy to pull. And I just was curious, that's all. Wanted to see if anyone had any real reads on Shinori before he flipped town.

[charlie_]

prims is pretty much obvtown since he hasn't been shot by a cc

bbm gives weird vibes early on, asking poly for explanations on reads when he doesn't really have any himself. also he seems to be asking a bunch of questions

##Vote: BBM

running out of time sorry

[Baldrick]

I was going to mock for SB for not posting was a serious dastard and cut me while I was reading.

BBM is the worst for me. He was jumpy in his reaction to the kill, talking about it was in a strange way. He almost seemed to be guiding Eury to a prims suspicion, but took poly to task for a similar thing despite his 95 being the correct answer to both.

His case on poly was logical, but delving into minutiae and dissecting his tow read on Eury, and exclaims that poly is taciturn and never explains his reads without pushing, but he never got a chance to be helpful without prodding since he got prodded after one reaction post without scumreads. Seems like trying to rally opinion against him.

At the moment, I'm trying to decide whether Eury or Poly is my deputy scum read. Eury seems less new town, since being cautious and analytical is a better move for scum than using bad logic and throwing out reads, not to mention she triggered my gut in 86 by saying "granted, i could be wrong in feeling you're not scum, bbm", but poly was jumpy as well (bringing up claiming when that's the opposite of what town wants) and I'm worried about falling into the BusBuddyscuM trap (or rather, thinking poly town just because he's under the most pressure so far and his reaction looks alright)

I need to check where the votals are up to, one sec.

OK BBM is at L-2 I think? So I'll do this:

##vote: Eury

We'll need to make a leap of faith somewhere in order to win. So give me a post or the discussion from the last page and tell me what you think of the author and his/her mindset.

[Grace]

I should probably do votals eh.

Votals:

BBM (2): PMP, SB

Polydeuces (1): BBM

Eurykins (1): Huck Finn

Voteless Scum (3): Refa, Eurykins, Polydeuces

4 to hammer. There are a bit under 63 hours remaining in the phase.

edit: Another message; if I'm not around, and hammer occurs (at any time), you can keep talking in thread until I return and post the flip, but once hammer occurs, the lynch cannot be changed. This is been added to the rules for future reference.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Manix

[BBM]

I'm asking questions as part of my scumhunting; it's not like my questions are not trying to progress the game. Also, I repeat, I don't care that Poly (or Eury) has no scumreads. That's not the point of my vote. The point is that if you are going to give reads, they should at least be for logical reasons.

It's also incorrect that I was pushing Poly for only one post without reasons. He first posted in #83 with some reads with no reasons behind them. I asked him in 86# to give reasons for the reads, and he replied back in #87 but sort of dodged the question because he answered with saying that it was difficult to get reads when that wasn't the point. I responded back in #90 telling him again to give reasons, and then in #91 he just gave more reads without reasons. So that was twice I prodded him before I voted him in #93 for it. Then he finally gave reasons in #94.

Also how the fuck was I guiding anyone to a Prims suspicion? I said like twice that it makes no sense for Prims to be scum, and not just to Poly. I was asking them if they thought Prims was lying if they were suspicious of him. I don't understand where I was delving into minutiae about Eury either. This is literally what I said directly about my read on Eury- that I don't mind that she has no reads atm. Anything else I said was indirect because Poly was going like "oh she is cooperating with town by giving reads", and I was refuting that statement. And nor was anything related to Prims in any way part of my vote for Poly. Where did I ever say or imply that it was?

Baldrick also says that my case on Poly is logical, but then starts dissecting it and saying it's scummy in the same sentence. Then in the next paragraph he talks about how Poly might be his deputy scumread. That makes no sense to me, especially as the only thing that he points out as scummy about Poly (his jumpiness about claiming) is also part of my case. And considering the jumpiness is a reaction, if that's what Baldrick finds scummy, how is Poly reacting well under pressure?

[Baldrick]

Not explaining scum reads is the bad thing as opposed to not explaining reads. Explaining null reads is just waffling, explaining town reads is equally pointless because we don't care about reaching a consensus on who is town. I assumed that was the reason for his refusal to explain but I might be projecting my own thoughts, he should clarify for the record. He had no scum reads as of 94, so you prodded him twice and voted him for not explaining reads that didn't exist. Unless you wanted him to explain his null and town reads?

Guiding not right word, suspicion already there... Stoking? Basically you were talking to someone else about their prims scum read, not offering an opinion on it so you distance yourself later without having to trash it immediately.

Poly didn't say Eury had reads; he said she was helpful and had "a good grasp of the idea of scum-hunting" which he defined as not giving reads unless they're well considered and drawing detailed conclusion. You invented the alleged contradiction that forms part of the case. (Based on 107 I assume it's part of your case)

By minutiae, I meant poly's primspec, which was given far more airtime than it deserved. If it's not part of the case, my mistake. I still find it of interest.

I didn't format that well. The minutiae is the logical part, I.E. a) logical, but delving into minutiae, b) dissecting the townread. His reaction to the vote and counter-arguments were alright, but offering to claim and paranoia about a turbo lynch weren't. My reasons for scum reading poly aren't strong, but they might be the second strongest out of my scum reads.

[Eurykins]

I will agree with you, Huck Finn, in me playing more analytical than just posting a whole stream/vomit of thoughts right off the bat. To me, it is a waste of energy and time jumping on every little thing that might be said/done, without more to back up or otherwise verify the feelings/readings. I also don't know how much a townie such as myself- a newbie one at that- should end up saying in terms of my thoughts. If what I'm feeling/thinking ends up getting me killed and resulting in us townies getting a mislynch, what good is that? It'd be stupid of me NOT to take my time in stopping, thinking, and trying to articulate a post that's worth considering/reading, as opposed to just throwing out "I THINK HE/SHE IS A TOWNIE/SCUMMIE" at every twist n' turn. (Maybe I'm approaching the Mafia game with the wrong mindset, but I'm just running with my instincts and playing how I feel I should.)

In addition, my comment regarding BBM was based on the feelings from this game in terms of scum/no-scum readings, along with my earlier recollections of seeing BBM in other games (that Shinori's linked to me in the past in order to get me to join Mafia)- I've had a hard time pinning him down CORRECTLY as either scum or townie in his games. So I'm not going to rush any judgement calls on ANYONE unless I feel I have a solid foothold in why I believe so.

And at this point, I suppose I should toss out whatever thoughts I'm sitting on in terms of feels/reads on people. Though I warn you guys- as said before, I'm avoiding hardcore finger-pointing unless I feel the need/support to do so.

Possible Townies:

Refa: Aside from the joking self-vote (which I got absolutely no scum read from), he's been fairly solid in his reactions and posting. So he's probably, for me, one of the few that I can probably say with confidence that he's a townie.

Neutral/Unsure:

BBM: It's fair to say that the responses to Shinori's death seemed a bit weird, but not necessarily warranting a scum read on that. And if post #73 was accurate, then it justifies what was said in #64, 65, and 70. I wasn't 100% what to make of post #82, though, but ran with it regardless. And most of what I witnessed/read afterwards seemed more reactive posts to Prims, as he seems to be under fire more often than not/having his posts scrutinized heavily from the start. It's hard to get a clear reading from him when there seems to be so much getting blurred in the process.

Prims: Honestly, I've been unsure of you since Posts #60 and #68 occurred. The claim against Refa early on was based on what I perceived to be more of a joking self-vote than anything, and seeing you jump on the first thing seen seems... odd. And then you jumped on BBM for lack of contributions to the progress of the game, but at the time you posted that... quite frankly, the majority of us could've easily fallen under that category. Shinori posted twice prior to his death- neither of which REALLY helped/contributed anything, I myself was in my corner trying to see how things would go at the start of a Mafia game, and we had people who hadn't posted at all. Posts #74 and #76 also seemed to push us to jump on the "Let's lynch BBM and be done with the day phase!" bandwagon, and that just seemed extremely careless/rushed given the shot/kill on Shinori. After all, fewer people + kill on townie + possible mislynch on another townie (Which would also end the day phase early if it'd been done when you told us to, limiting the amount of posting to be done before the night phase happened) can easily lead to the Mafia gaining the obvious upper hand and much faster victory if done correctly.

**To clarify: I'm having one hell of a time trying to pinpoint Prims and BBM atm: Both are strong players in every regard, and I'm having the feeling that knocking one out without the other going down as well is dangerous. Depending on who ends up being a townie or mafia (or, worst case both are townie/mafia), taking one side over the other... seems risky. No matter how you look at it.

Poly: I'm leaning townie on Poly, but I can't say it as confidently as I can with Refa (which is why he's in my 'unsure' category). I appreciate his means of standing up for me in terms of me being a newbie player and not saying clear-cut reads/opinions/etc., but seeing him willing to weather as much as he is getting in light of him speaking up for me pulls up the question: Is he a fellow townie attempting to be a supportive player and helping me genuinely? Or is he a possible Mafia that's merely attempting to secure a good buddy-buddy system with someone who he's confident in being a townie? It's hard for me to tell, but I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Huck Finn: Hmmm... I like your thought process, and your posts. Strong player, and decent logic, even if it rendered me as a possible scum read from you. Since you haven't posted nearly as much as the others in the thread thus far, I'm drawing a blank currently in terms of where I'd place you.

Possible Scum:

...SB?: This category seemed lonely, so figured someone could use this spot. But aside from that- short single post so I've seen thus far. Wasn't overly descriptive/in-depth, and seemed to just throw out a vote on the one who's already hosting the most votes thus far. And not sure if his last comment was directed as his IRL situation (not being able to be online long) or otherwise in-game, in the sense of us running out of time for the lynch. I figure the former is much more likely, but who knows?

[charlie_]

hi guys i exist

[spoiler=]

Refa

Polydeuces

Prims/Professional Mafia Player

SB
BBM
Baldrick/Huck Finn

Eurykins

Shinori(p)

so do ISOs

Minor townread on Refa, I don't think that he would agree so readily to a plan that would poe him quickly as scum. Prims being town is pretty obvious.

Don't like BBM for this question, when he seemed to have pretty much figured out that Prims was confirmed town, why did you ask it again? "i don't feel like getting voted for that" comment doesn't improve my opinion of him either, it looks really self-conscious to me. Also I dislike when he says that Eury should've known Prims' meta if she read a couple of games in the past.

This post by Poly really bugs me, and not just because of the claiming overreaction. His first point seems to imply that he knows that Eury is newbtown, since he says that it's better that he's hanging back a bit when we would want newbscum to talk so that they would slip up. I feel like I'm wording this horribly but eh. He also looks like he's trying REALLY HARD to change the subject in #110 after some pressure by BBM.

Don't like how Eury sticks me as a scumread just kind of for the sake of having one, but then doesn't vote me for it. And yes, it was about my situation irl as I was about to leave for school, and I was implying that it was going to be super short and I didn't have much time to do anything but skim.

Unvote

##Vote: Polydeuces

[Eurykins]

Mkay, that's what I figured. And, as I said, I merely put you there 'cause my poor category of 'scum reads' was empty- nothing more to it, lol. (Silly thing to do, I know, but after getting slightly annoyed with fail internets trashing my posts twice/having to retype it a third time, I decided to just have a lil' bit of fun somewhere.) So it'd be more accurate to label yourself under the 'unsure' category, SB.

(Which is why I didn't vote for you.)

[Baldrick]

I know the feeling, I also like to take things slowly and am always paranoid I'm not making enough incisive, well thought out observations. The key is to relax, you have nothing to hide. It will make thinking things through easier and you will sound more confident; how you appear to the other players is important.

Two questions;

What do you think of BBM's 84, considering what he said in 95?

If Prims and BBM are both strong players, why is them both being town a worse scenario than one being scum?

SB's point on poly is a good one, actually. You have to actively try to be worse than a new player not saying anything.

[BBM]

Again, considering I kept saying "why do you think Prims is scum if he's claiming Sniper", I don't understand how I was stoking a Prims suspicion.

In #103, Poly is like "newbscum are much more easy to spot due to their unwillingness to give reads". This implies that Eury is newbtown instead because she is willing to give reads, except she wasn't giving any reads.

Also, explaining townreads is important. It's way easier to hop on someone's wagon if you haven't explained your townread on them before than if you have. If you haven't you can just say "hey I changed my mind" whereas if you have you have to go into way more detail.

As for the 84/95 thing that you're asking Eury- I don't see the contradiction there. I asked first "do you think he's lying?" and then when she said "he might be", I said "but it makes no sense for him to lie because so and so".

wrt to Refa, I think he's town based on reaction but the point about him being town based off agreeing to the BPV massclaim is a bad one because if the scum BPV doesn't claim BPV, then the two townies who do claim BPV get cleared, and then the mafia can't even kill them because they're BPV. Whereas if you agree to the plan, you at least are told exactly who the BPVs are and you only need one ML anyways if both vigshots hit non-BPV town.

Baldrick's tone to Eury is sort of weird considering he's voting for her?