The Mary Sue of All FE Characters

[RJWalker]

TO anyone who says Micaiah is a Mary Sue, play the game again and pay attention this time. She's a straight up decontruction. RD Ike is a bigger Sue though he isn't one either.

But if you're going to call Micaiah a Mary Sue, then you're now forced to call every lord a bigger Sue. You don't have a choice here.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[General Banzai]

But if you're going to call Micaiah a Mary Sue, then you're now forced to call every lord a bigger Sue. You don't have a choice here.

yeah you fucking do because mary sue is a made up concept for fakey fake people to sound superior to other people

[Sunwoo]

TO anyone who says Micaiah is a Mary Sue, play the game again and pay attention this time. She's a straight up decontruction. RD Ike is a bigger Sue though he isn't one either.

But if you're going to call Micaiah a Mary Sue, then you're now forced to call every lord a bigger Sue. You don't have a choice here.

Look up. And see my post.

[Skynstein]

Amen to that. The terms "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" are terms that have far too many different definitions to far too many different people to have any use describing characters.

Which is why they're bad terms. If no one can agree on what a Sue is, then the term should be eliminated.

I'll only use the term Mary Sue in its original meaning, that is, of a character in a fanfic (NOT any original creation) who is a self-insert constructed as a means of self-gratification. Not anything else. Robin is a strange case, since he's a self-insert but you can only control his actions to a certain degree, and his qualities come from your success in the game. He's only a "gifted tactician" if you play well, otherwise you can't advance in the game. In the end, it's right that Chrom only wins because of him, since you're him anyways.

[Jave]

I've always said that the term Mary Sue has been thrown around so much it has basically lost all meaning, so using it to define a character means next to nothing.

But on the Ike/Micaiah topic, I'll definitely say Micaiah is a considerably more interesting character due to the love/hate relationship she has with the rest of the cast. In fact, I would have preferred a hundred times to have a game focused entirely on FE10 Part 1, but expanding it to make it as long as FE9, then make a 3rd and final Tellius game that's made of FE10 parts 3 and 4.

Ike... I swear the more I play FE10 the more dull and boring I find him. Micaiah is a character that goes through so much crap (a lot of which is not by choice) and only has a few people on her side she can directly call her friends (and even then Jill and Zihark can still betray her). I like seeing a main character actually go through hurdles in order to achieve victory while being at a clear disadvantage because it makes the story and the game as a whole more interesting to play. But whenever Ike shows up he immediately ROFLstomps through everything, and it feels the whole thing is on autopilot. And a lot of his dialogue feels empty and rather robotic, like "I won't stop until I die" in... 4-E-2, I think it was?

As much as I hate the Mary Sue terminology, I'd definitely say Ike is the closest to it barring Kris and Robin. For a character so dull and boring, he definitely gets a lot more spotlight than he deserves.

[Junkhead]

FE13's Avatar by FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR

[NoNameAtAll]

To say Ike isn't likeable is stupid!

And yet Priam, dull as he is, is much friendlier.

Sorry babe, but Ike is about as likable as a brick wall: Sturdy, but not much else to it.

[Junkhead]

Yeah, no offense. Ike is all like WHY SO SERIOUS

[BrightBow]

And yet Priam, dull as he is, is much friendlier.

Sorry babe, but Ike is about as likable as a brick wall: Sturdy, but not much else to it.

Friendlier? Priam?

You mean the guy who wasn't going to help save the world unless humanities only hope was engaging him in fight that probably killed a few dozen people?

Actions speak louder then words, and I don't remember Ike requiring Elincia to prove that she can beat the Greil Mercenaries before helping her.

Edited October 24, 2013 by BrightBow

[Snowy_One]

The term I tend to use for a Mary Sue is...

A character, usually in fanfiction or the authors own work, who...

1) Is only rarely wrong despite having no reason to always be right. (We only just met but I already know you hate me because my miniskirt and clown-shows combination is INFINITELY more fashion-sensible than yours. Yes I know you're a boy who wears rags because of low income and don't care about fashion, but you DO NOW SIMPLY BECAUSE I SAY SO!)

2) Is shown to be unreasonably skilled or capable of things despite plenty of reason to believe that they are uncapable of such feats. (You're a genius mage with an IQ of 120 putting you ahead of the curb? Well, I'm an EXTRA genius mage who mastered wind magic before I was even out of diapers. And despite being raised as a hockey puck salesman I was on par with master soldiers the MOMENT I touched a gun!)

3) Will dethrone or eclipse main and previously established characters for little to no actual reason. (You're the hero who saved the universe at 16? Well I went out and saved the entire multiverse, while becoming a hero in EVERY universe, and I did it at 15! So HA!)

4) People who disagree with them will almost always be presented as unquestionably wrong, likely regardless of what was actually being debated (fish or steak for dinner? If the MS picks steak and you choose fish because you have a moral objection to red meat that the MS disagrees with, your fish is poisoned).

5) Often ends up with the entire world, even side-plots that should have no logical bearing upon them, revolving around them. (The world is falling apart and I'm the only one who can save it and your quest is simply to find the girl you lost ten years ago? WELL YOU CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT ME BECAUSE I AM THE ONLY ONE CAPABLE OF MAKING YOU TWO REALIZE YOUR FEELINGS FOR EACH OTHER DESPITE YOU ALREADY KNOWING YOU LOVE EACH OTHER AND THE ONLY REASON FOR YOUR SEPARATION BEING A RUNAWAY KAZOO MOSH PIT INCIDENT!)

6) Her flaws are largely only informed, relate almost entirely to the authors preference, and are either inconsequential or overly focused on. (I'm trying to save your entire kingdom from an exploding volcano and the eternally wise and knowledgeable king refuses to listen to me because I have a mole on my heel AND EVERYONE KNOWS MOLES ARE UGLY AND THAT I'M HORRIBLY FLAWED BECAUSE OF IT!)

7) If she has to make any choice even slightly controversial, she will be able to do so without dealing with the consequences/debate or, if she does, her opponents will largely be strawmen or people simply out to get her out of spite. (We live in a world with established deities who interact with us daily, but since I'm an atheist all those deities are either mass hallucinations, just another race with no divine authority, or con artists. You can't prove me wrong because your only claim that they are is because they say they are despite reams of evidence for things like immortality. What's that? THOR IS TRYING TO STRIKE ME DOWN FOR MY HERESY? WELL DOESN'T THAT JUST PROVE THAT THEY ARE FAKE IF THEY CAN'T TAKE CRITICISM? HE JUST HATES ME FOR MY MOLE! And because I just said he's nothing but a con-artist swindling people for free beer.)

Most importantly of all...

No matter how many or few of these traits she has, she is poorly written and presented. It's not that she *can't* be one or more of these things and not be a good character, it's that she will often have one or more of these things because she's the only character the author cares about to any real degree and, despite this, they only want to focus on how 'awesome' she is, not why she does the things she does, who she is, or her place in the larger world. It isn't a story about how Mary Sue saved the world. It's a story about Mary Sue which involves her saving the world at some point.

Edit: Now that I think about it, those last two sentences summarize the entire thing perfectly. A Mary Sue happens when it's not a story about Mary Sue saving the world, it happens when the story is about Mary Sue involving her saving the world. I.E. The focus is not upon making a good story or trying to present and interesting world, but upon Mary Sue and her own personal struggles, often either overblown or exaggerated, which involve saving the world at some point.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[PKL]

I've always said that the term Mary Sue has been thrown around so much it has basically lost all meaning, so using it to define a character means next to nothing.

But on the Ike/Micaiah topic, I'll definitely say Micaiah is a considerably more interesting character due to the love/hate relationship she has with the rest of the cast. In fact, I would have preferred a hundred times to have a game focused entirely on FE10 Part 1, but expanding it to make it as long as FE9, then make a 3rd and final Tellius game that's made of FE10 parts 3 and 4.

Ike... I swear the more I play FE10 the more dull and boring I find him. Micaiah is a character that goes through so much crap (a lot of which is not by choice) and only has a few people on her side she can directly call her friends (and even then Jill and Zihark can still betray her). I like seeing a main character actually go through hurdles in order to achieve victory while being at a clear disadvantage because it makes the story and the game as a whole more interesting to play. But whenever Ike shows up he immediately ROFLstomps through everything, and it feels the whole thing is on autopilot. And a lot of his dialogue feels empty and rather robotic, like "I won't stop until I die" in... 4-E-2, I think it was?

As much as I hate the Mary Sue terminology, I'd definitely say Ike is the closest to it barring Kris and Robin. For a character so dull and boring, he definitely gets a lot more spotlight than he deserves.

You forgot his 3-E deathquote. I remember being like: Wuuuut? When I first beat him and he just said something like "lol let's roflstomp this place".

[Vashiane]

Those are some interesting examples there, Snowy... a little exxagerated though.

Now to the actual problems at hand here:

First, this is an extremely subjective question, because everyone's standards and guidelines for what makes a Mary-Sue differ. It's almost impossible to come to the exact same conclusion for the same reasons.

Second, there is a massive difference in being a Mary-Sue, being a main character, and being a self-insert. The story naturally revolves around a main character, and a self-insert is created for the purpose of wish-fulliment. A Mary-Sue combines BOTH of these characteristics, plus several more. In my honest opinion, the biggest sign of a Mary-Sue is their tendancy to break rules established within the work or its origin. If you go out of your way to make up rules for your canon, or respect the rules of someone ELSE'S canon, only to make a character that tramples those rules beneath their feet at any given moment is probably the most blasmpheous way to give your character whatever they want, when they want it.

Third - because I saw this mentioned earlier - favoristism of a character is a very slippery slope. Once you start favoring one character over another, they tend to start getting more lines, more spotlight, which sort-of snowballs if you're not careful. I myself have problems with this, so to combat it, I usually have large casts so I can split the screentime up evenly.

And fourth... just because a character is unlikable does not make them a Mary-Sue, and just because you like a character doesn't automatically excluded them from being one.

Of all the definitions used to identify Mary-Sues, THOSE are the only two that don't make any sort of sense.

[Jave]

Ike? Nobody liked him in the beginning. He was just the newbie mercenary.

Are you sure we're playing the same games? Because I have a clear memory that everyone was fine with Ike at the beginning of FE9. The only one who didn't like Ike (and never did even by the end of FE10) was Shinon (you could say Gatrie by extension but he never struck me as disliking Ike, he left with Shinon since they're buddies, mostly). Then Elincia joins and praises everything Ike does.

If someone said "Nobody liked Ike at the beginning", I'd wonder if that person even played FE9 to begin with.

[Vashiane]

Are you sure we're playing the same games? Because I have a clear memory that everyone was fine with Ike at the beginning of FE9. The only one who didn't like Ike (and never did even by the end of FE10) was Shinon (you could say Gatrie by extension but he never struck me as disliking Ike, he left with Shinon since they're buddies, mostly). Then Elincia joins and praises everything Ike does.

If someone said "Nobody liked Ike at the beginning", I'd wonder if that person even played FE9 to begin with.

Shinon doesn't like anyone, really...

[shadowofchaos]

Shinon doesn't like anyone, really...

By the way he treats Lyre, I wonder if he has a closet fetish for cat laguz.

[ZemZem]

How does he treat Lyre? I never played FE10.

I do know that he has respect for Janaff after one of the best sets of supports in FE history.

[Jave]

How does he treat Lyre? I never played FE10.

This convo (Also the one where the infamous "Gatree" pairing comes from):

Kitten Smitten

Gatrie: ...Oh, and this girl! You're going to think you're dreaming! She's as lovely as the dawn, I'm telling you!

Shinon: All right, just show me already. Where is this sunrise with legs, anyway?

Gatrie: Wait, are you saying you're actually curious? I never thought I'd see the day.

Shinon: Well, we're gonna have to hang around these sub-humans for quite a while. A pretty face will help keep me sane.

Lyre: Hey! You! You want to say that again?!

Gatrie: Ahh...!

Shinon: Hey, pussycat. You should've dropped by after dinner. I'm a generous man. I would've given you some table scraps.

Lyre: T-table scraps?! How dare you! You scum! Who do you think you are? I'm not going to forget that!

Shinon: Aw, kitty wants to play? Sure, I've got some time to kill. Let's dance, hairball!

Lyre: HISSSSSS!!!

Kyza: Stop! Don't make another move.

Lyre: Kyza! You should hear the garbage he's saying! He's the worst man I've ever met!

Kyza: He's a beroc, Lyre. Please accept my apology on behalf of my associate. Please, forgive her. Now you, Lyre. Apologize to him.

Lyre: What?! Why do I have to be the one to apologize?! That guy was the one who started it!

Kyza: Do you want me to report to Captain Ranulf that you couldn't control your temper and started a fight with a beorc?

Lyre: N-no...

Shinon: I'm waiting... I'd forgive you if you apologized. I am a nice guy, you know.

Lyre: What?! Never! You're lucky I don't claw that smile off your face!

Kyza: Lyre! I'm sorry... Maybe some other time. Excuse us.

Shinon: Hmph, I hate it when sub-humans like him act all high and mighty, pretending to be just like us beorc. He's even worse than the other hairball.

Gatrie: ...Sigh.

Shinon: What, did all that stun you into silence? You look like you've been hit in the head.

Gatrie: So, her name is Lyre. What a pretty name! Lyyyyyre...

Shinon: What? Oh, come on! Don't tell me the girl you were talking about is that pussycat!

Gatrie: Don't mock me, Shinon! This is serious. I feel it. It's destiny! That girl and I are fated to be together!

Shinon: You're chasing after a laguz now? Gatrie, I swear you'd hit on a tree if I dressed it in a skirt. Tell me I'm wrong!

[PKL]

I still can't forgive FE10 Ike for doing that in 3-13. I beat his rear end with Trueblade Edward and he just proceeds to not give a fuck and storm the castle. Whyyyyyy?

Edited October 24, 2013 by PKL

[Vashiane]

I still can't forgive FE10 Ike for doing that in 3-13. I beat his rear end with Trueblade Edward and he just proceeds to not give a fuck and storm the castle. Whyyyyyy?

Because screw your effort, Ike does what he wants. :3

[NoNameAtAll]

Friendlier? Priam?

You mean the guy who wasn't going to help save the world unless humanities only hope was engaging him in fight that probably killed a few dozen people?

Actions speak louder then words, and I don't remember Ike requiring Elincia to prove that she can beat the Greil Mercenaries before helping her.

I said friendlier. I didn't say smarter.

Edited October 24, 2013 by NoNameAtAll

[Loki Laufeyson]

The author of an original work can self-insert just as easily as the author of a fanfic. See: Twilight. It's more common in fanfiction, but can definitely exist in original works.

Yes it does. Canon Sues can be very tricky to spot if in the hands of a crafty writer, but sometimes...just sometimes, they happen. They are usually the mouthpieces of the author though. Twilight is the best example of a Canon Sue because Bella is actually deliberately written so the reader could slip into her shoes. But the blathering about Edward is all Meyer.

I find Ephraim a bigger Mary Sue (or "Gary Stu" in this case) than either Micaiah or Ike to be honest.

Ephraim gets really close, but hes more of a flat character (especially compared to his sister and Lyon) and everyone loves him anyway. Other than his Leeroy Jenkins style, its hard to find actual character traits in Ephraim. Seems to me that they wrote Eirika's story first and then decided it would be neat to have Ephraim in the spotlight after the fact.

Again I'd argue that Micaiah is a deconstruction of a Mary Sue. Part 1 sort of builds her up to be one (however it is shown that she is still human) and Part 3 then rips it to shreds.

She could be. Daenerys from ASOIAF/Game of Thrones reminds me a little bit of Micaiah. Daenerys is a deconstruction of the Messiah/Savior/Lost Princess tropes and concepts. Her and Micaiah's arcs have a lot of similarity up until Part 4 of Micaiah's story. (thats where shit just goes out the fucking window.) Nobody to Savior, liberates areas, wins some allies, are forced to do things against their moral codes, etc. (even their hair color is the same) But unlike Dany, Micaiah gets hammered with horrible writing near the end of the story. Its rushed, badly executed, and just not pleasant. We can blame the writers for this because Micaiah's story could have been really fucking cool if more effort was put in near the end. Part 4...just...goddammit Part 4!!!!

[Anacybele]

Are you sure we're playing the same games? Because I have a clear memory that everyone was fine with Ike at the beginning of FE9. The only one who didn't like Ike (and never did even by the end of FE10) was Shinon (you could say Gatrie by extension but he never struck me as disliking Ike, he left with Shinon since they're buddies, mostly). Then Elincia joins and praises everything Ike does.

If someone said "Nobody liked Ike at the beginning", I'd wonder if that person even played FE9 to begin with.

I didn't mean it literally. Sure, they're fine with Ike joining the group, but they're not totally praising him or anything. Elincia is the only one that praises Ike like that at all for the most part.

[Hawk King]

Red Fox already said it. There are no Mary Sues in any FE.

Well aside from FE13 Avatar.

[Nobody]

Whatever people say, Micaiah is not a Mary Sue.

If she was one, I wouldn't hate her so much =)

[Junkhead]

=)