The Mary Sue of All FE Characters

[Mighty Kamina]

I guess I'd say Robin or RD Ike?

Personally I always felt Micaiah was sort of a deconstruction of a Mary Sue. (Especially in Part 3)

In all honesty though I don't really consider anyone in the FE series a Mary Sue.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Junpei Iori

[bookofholsety]

let's face it, these days "Mary Sue" has devolved to become shorthand for "any character i dislike but couldn't be fucked to adequately justify my disdain" and has pretty much lost all legitimate meaning it once had

that said, the avatars of FE12 and FE13 are the obvious candidates for the conventional meaning, but you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find a "legitimate" one in the series otherwise. even Micaiah, the FE fandom's traditional whipping girl on this subject, isn't really in that territory despite what everyone insists; i remind you that the entirety of FE10 part 3 exists and goes a long way to establishing that actually she's kind of not perfect and everyone, herself included, knows it (except maybe Pelleas). she's hardly the best executed FE protagonist, but there's a fair deal more nuance and reasonable handling to her than is often given credit

also loltvtropes who even listens to them anymore

[Anacybele]

untrue

Care to explain why? I'm an author that favors some characters over others that I've created in my work. I do my best not to give any of them too many Sueish traits though.

As for who are Mary Sues in the FE series, the Avatars are, though that's understandable because it's intended for them to be us in a way. So that's excusable. But an inexcusable Mary Sue, imo, is Micaiah. Everybody in Daein praises her and says she's so great simply because of her unique hair color and special power. Her special powers are explained, but everybody loves and respects her. Nobody dislikes her. The laguz even like her when they're supposed to hate her because she's a Daein and a Branded! And she did very little to actually earn all of this praise. She's got a super secret and major past, she's the only one with silver hair, she seems to have good leadership skills out of nowhere, and ugh.

People who say Ike is a Stu are WRONG. Yes, he gets a lot of praise from people. But he EARNED it. He wasn't anything special at all in the beginning of PoR, just a simple mercenary in training. When he took leadership, he had little experience, a couple members of the group deserted them, and Ike messed up a couple times. He had to earn the respect he got from the Greil Mercenaries, laguz tribes, Begnion, etc and work to gain the skills he got. Reyson wanted to murder him at first, but Ike managed to earn his respect. And he saved all of Crimea and gained more respect from that.

Even without PoR, Ike is not a Stu. It's explained how he earned his fame by saving Crimea and being the hero of the Mad King's War. He doesn't have any special powers of his own, he doesn't have any special heritage other than being the son of a well-known and skilled Daein ex-general. And he's still disliked by Daein because of how he defeated their king and all. But Ike later even earned their respect by showing that he's not a bad person. Ike still has his personality flaws too, like being reckless, sometimes unintentionally rude and too blunt, being somewhat naive, etc.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Anacybele

[Just call me AL]

I find Ephraim a bigger Mary Sue (or "Gary Stu" in this case) than either Micaiah or Ike to be honest.

[Rainbow Skittles]

anyone who says ike is a stu is not automatically wrong, at least not in all caps.

[Snowy_One]

The thing, in my eyes, that makes a sue a sue is not what they are, but how it's presented. Superman (or any other super-hero) is not a Mary Sue of necessity even though they can fight crime and even move entire worlds, battle gods, and the like. The girl in the fanfiction whom everyone loves despite being a total bitch to everyone she meets for no reason beyond 'because she's awesome'? That's a Mary Sue.

Micaiah is not a Mary Sue. She *looks* like one (though white hair is hardly a Sue-ish trait, especially with other characters coming close or having it and people IRL having it), but her story and reasons are presented legitimately. Being able to heal without a staff would, indeed, be a huge thing even if magical healing is common-place. Her thing with Yune does make sense as well.

[Mighty Kamina]

Care to explain why? I'm an author that favors some characters over others that I've created in my work. I do my best not to give any of them too many Sueish traits though.

As for who are Mary Sues in the FE series, the Avatars are, though that's understandable because it's intended for them to be us in a way. So that's excusable. But an inexcusable Mary Sue, imo, is Micaiah. Everybody in Daein praises her and says she's so great simply because of her unique hair color and special power. Her special powers are explained, but everybody loves and respects her. Nobody dislikes her. The laguz even like her when they're supposed to hate her because she's a Daein and a Branded! And she did very little to actually earn all of this praise. She's got a super secret and major past, she's the only one with silver hair, she seems to have good leadership skills out of nowhere, and ugh.

People who say Ike is a Stu are WRONG. Yes, he gets a lot of praise from people. But he EARNED it. He wasn't anything special at all in the beginning of PoR, just a simple mercenary in training. When he took leadership, he had little experience, a couple members of the group deserted them, and Ike messed up a couple times. He had to earn the respect he got from the Greil Mercenaries, laguz tribes, Begnion, etc and work to gain the skills he got. Reyson wanted to murder him at first, but Ike managed to earn his respect. And he saved all of Crimea and gained more respect from that.

Even without PoR, Ike is not a Stu. It's explained how he earned his fame by saving Crimea and being the hero of the Mad King's War. He doesn't have any special powers of his own, he doesn't have any special heritage other than being the son of a well-known and skilled Daein ex-general. And he's still disliked by Daein because of how he defeated their king and all. But Ike later even earned their respect by showing that he's not a bad person. Ike still has his personality flaws too, like being reckless, sometimes unintentionally rude and too blunt, being somewhat naive, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't really think any FE character is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but I can see where people are coming from with calling RD Ike a Stu. For example most people pratically worship the guy (or at least kiss hiss ass) in RD and when someone doesn't like him their typically being shown in a negative manner (Micaiah, Shinon, Bengion's population, Daien's population, etc). Aside from Skimr's (or whatever the hell that lion prince's name was) screw up Ike basically steam rolls everything in his path. Oh right and the fact that he comes in and steals the spotlight from everyone else.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Junpei Iori

[Anacybele]

Now don't get me wrong, I don't really think any FE character is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but I can see where people are coming from with calling RD Ike a Stu. For example most people pratically worship the guy (or at least kiss hiss ass) in RD and when someone doesn't like him their typically being shown in a negative manner (Micaiah, Shinon, Bengion's population, Daien's population, etc). Aside from Skimr's (or whatever the hell that lion prince's name was) screw up Ike basically steam rolls everything in his path. Oh right and the fact that he comes in and steals the spotlight from everyone else.

Read what I said. People "worship" Ike because he earned the respect he got. He risked his life to save Crimea and do everything else he did. I'd praise him a lot too! And Ike "steals the spotlight" because he's the main character of the Tellius saga. If any main character is a Sue simply because they get the spotlight, that would mean every single main character in existence is a Sue, which is not true.

[Snowy_One]

I actually agree. Ike is a Gary Stu. A decently-written one, but one none the less. The thing about Micaiah is that there are some legit reasons why. Having the power to heal without a staff is, indeed, useful and could be seen as a divine blessing. I'm sure if you suddenly got the ability to preform surgery despite no training and not have it botched people would see it as a divine blessing despite there being plenty of surgeons in the world. Micaiah is also a generally likable and nice person, so it's easy to see why people like her. That goes a VERY long way towards diffusing the 'sue' status (it's okay to like a likable person. It's Sueish to like an unlikable person). Meanwhile Ike is practically a hero and beloved despite turning his back on Elincia in favor of being a mercenary (remember, mercenaries work for money. Even if Ike would never intentionally hurt Crimea, his refusal to swear loyalty and to function as a merc is not only a slap in the face of Crimea but puts him in a position where he could indirectly hurt Crimea. To top it off, his father was a Daien general who raised him closely and he looks up to. Suspicion in this case would be prudent even if nothing happens). Ike is almost 'always' on the 'good' side (Micaiah was forced to fight against her will for her enemies in a 'lesser of two evils' scenario. Ike fighting for Crimea is good regardless despite Crimean nobles almost killing Lucia in his intro). Yea... Ike is a Gary Stu, no doubt about it.

[CT075]

oh shit

banzai has spoken

nobody argue with the english major

[Mighty Kamina]

Read what I said. People "worship" Ike because he earned the respect he got. He risked his life to save Crimea and do everything else he did. I'd praise him a lot too! And Ike "steals the spotlight" because he's the main character of the Tellius saga. If any main character is a Sue simply because they get the spotlight, that would mean every single main character in existence is a Sue, which is not true.

I know he earned a lot of respect, but the main thing that bugs me about it (aside from that almost everyone worships the guy) is that anyone who voices their dislike for the guy is almost always being shown in a negative light.

Also about the spotlight stealing, it's not that he gets the spotlight it's that by the end of the game he's stolen it from every other major character.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Junpei Iori

[Anacybele]

I actually agree. Ike is a Gary Stu. A decently-written one, but one none the less. The thing about Micaiah is that there are some legit reasons why. Having the power to heal without a staff is, indeed, useful and could be seen as a divine blessing. I'm sure if you suddenly got the ability to preform surgery despite no training and not have it botched people would see it as a divine blessing despite there being plenty of surgeons in the world. Micaiah is also a generally likable and nice person, so it's easy to see why people like her. That goes a VERY long way towards diffusing the 'sue' status (it's okay to like a likable person. It's Sueish to like an unlikable person). Meanwhile Ike is practically a hero and beloved despite turning his back on Elincia in favor of being a mercenary (remember, mercenaries work for money. Even if Ike would never intentionally hurt Crimea, his refusal to swear loyalty and to function as a merc is not only a slap in the face of Crimea but puts him in a position where he could indirectly hurt Crimea. To top it off, his father was a Daien general who raised him closely and he looks up to. Suspicion in this case would be prudent even if nothing happens). Ike is almost 'always' on the 'good' side (Micaiah was forced to fight against her will for her enemies in a 'lesser of two evils' scenario. Ike fighting for Crimea is good regardless despite Crimean nobles almost killing Lucia in his intro). Yea... Ike is a Gary Stu, no doubt about it.

Ike never "turned his back on" Elincia. He still fights only for Crimea and her allies and calls it his home. You don't see him taking jobs for Daein or Kilvas or anyone else. Only Crimea, Gallia, and Begnion. And in the case of Begnion, he did it only to gain their favor for Crimea's sake. Ike even offers to help Elincia stop the rest of the rebels after Lucia is saved in RD, but she declines and decides to have the knights do it instead. Ike declined his lord status because he's just not interested in being a noble. Not because he doesn't want to be loyal to Crimea. He IS loyal to Crimea and he always was. He'd never turn against them.

And Ike didn't have any idea for YEARS that his father was from Daein. He never looked up to him because of that. He looked up to him because he's him.

Yeah, some Crimean nobles were evil. Not the rest of the country. Ike was helping to save the country from the wrath of these nobles, just like he helped save Begnion from their idiot senators.

Ike is a very likeable man. He's kind to anyone he meets, he always defends people he cares for (he fights for his friends, remember? ;3), and he even tries to help people that spit in his face at first, like the Daein commonfolk and Reyson. Even though Reyson insulted him, Ike still went to protect him and save Leanne. Despite being a mercenary, Ike isn't selfish or greedy. He only seeks a reasonable pay for what he does, no more, no less. And he'd give his money to someone else that needed it more, like when he tried to give money back to the Daein commonfolk. He gave his lunch to little Soren when they first met!

To say Ike isn't likeable is stupid!

Edited October 24, 2013 by Anacybele

[ZemZem]

I find Ephraim a bigger Mary Sue (or "Gary Stu" in this case) than either Micaiah or Ike to be honest.

None of them are Mary Sues. You're just saying Ephraim is one because you hate FE8. :P

[Shotguner159]

But an inexcusable Mary Sue, imo, is Micaiah. Everybody in Daein praises her and says she's so great simply because of her unique hair color and special power. Her special powers are explained, but everybody loves and respects her. Nobody dislikes her. The laguz even like her when they're supposed to hate her because she's a Daein and a Branded! And she did very little to actually earn all of this praise. She's got a super secret and major past, she's the only one with silver hair, she seems to have good leadership skills out of nowhere, and ugh.

People in Daein praise Miciah because she saves them from Begnion. Note that Izuka says he's spreading rumours, and it doesn't turn into full blown worship until after 1-8, which is after she's liberated most of Daein. Soren, Almedha, Izuka, the Begnion Senators and Army dislike her. Branded are normal in Hatari, show Volug, Rafiel and Naliah don't care. Kurth didn't know. Vika doesn't know she's a branded, and has no trouble working with people from Daein anyway, and Muarim trusts her because Sothe does. That's all the laguz she interacts with before Part 4, where the impending apocalypse took precedence over racism. She liberated Daein, serving as both a tactician and fighter. That's what Ike did for Crimea, yet he earned worship from the entire continent while she doesn't deserve it from just Daein?

And that completly ignores that Micaiah has flaws. Her letting Jarod go, believing he'll just bury Alder leads to him laying waste to Nevassa. She looses her powers and collapses several times because she works herself into exhaustion. She does deplorable things, knowing full well that they are deplorable, not because she believes that it's the right thing to do, but to keep her country stable. She left Sothe behind, and planned on doing it again before Ike made her not want to. Even Soren, for all his flaws, would not dream of leaving Ike. Hell, developers notes says Micaiah was like Soren prior to Ike leaving Daein in tatters, and that Sothe was suprised that she wanted to help people.

[Anacybele]

People in Daein praise Miciah because she saves them from Begnion. Note that Izuka says he's spreading rumours, and it doesn't turn into full blown worship until after 1-8, which is after she's liberated most of Daein. Soren, Almedha, Izuka, the Begnion Senators and Army dislike her. Branded are normal in Hatari, show Volug, Rafiel and Naliah don't care. Kurth didn't know. Vika doesn't know she's a branded, and has no trouble working with people from Daein anyway, and Muarim trusts her because Sothe does. That's all the laguz she interacts with before Part 4, where the impending apocalypse took precedence over racism. She liberated Daein, serving as both a tactician and fighter. That's what Ike did for Crimea, yet he earned worship from the entire continent while she doesn't deserve it from just Daein?

And that completly ignores that Micaiah has flaws. Her letting Jarod go, believing he'll just bury Alder leads to him laying waste to Nevassa. She looses her powers and collapses several times because she works herself into exhaustion. She does deplorable things, knowing full well that they are deplorable, not because she believes that it's the right thing to do, but to keep her country stable. She left Sothe behind, and planned on doing it again before Ike made her not want to. Even Soren, for all his flaws, would not dream of leaving Ike. Hell, developers notes says Micaiah was like Soren prior to Ike leaving Daein in tatters, and that Sothe was suprised that she wanted to help people.

People praise her from the start of the game though. Before she does hardly ANY saving. Ike? Nobody liked him in the beginning. He was just the newbie mercenary.

[ZemZem]

She was also quite bashed when she pulled off that tactic that killed a ton of people.

This is why I hate these threads.

[Anacybele]

Which further proves my point that she was heavily blindly praised. But whatever, I don't like these threads either. I just don't like when people call Ike a Stu because I don't believe he is one.

[ZemZem]

And I don't like when people call Micaiah a Sue because I KNOW she isn't one.

[Mighty Kamina]

People praise her from the start of the game though. Before she does hardly ANY saving. Ike? Nobody liked him in the beginning. He was just the newbie mercenary.

Again I'd argue that Micaiah is a deconstruction of a Mary Sue. Part 1 sort of builds her up to be one (however it is shown that she is still human) and Part 3 then rips it to shreds.

[Florete]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't consider either a Stu/Sue, but if Micaiah is a Sue, so too is Ike. You can't claim one is and the other isn't without plainly ignoring the facts. Shotguner159's post shows that pretty well. The game's dialogue itself even states that the Daein situation in part 1 is eerily similar to PoR's story and likens to Micaiah to Ike.

As for why Micaiah is being "praised" before she does much, remember that even at the beginning of the game the Dawn Brigade had already made a name for themselves as rebels against the Begnion oppression. Crimea wasn't quite in the same situation at the very beginning of PoR as Daein was at the beginning of RD, so Ike didn't start making a name for himself until he was helping his country in its time of need, just like Micaiah did. The people rallied behind Micaiah because she and the Dawn Brigade gave them hope. Considering their situation, it makes complete sense.

[Sunwoo]

Can we just agree that different people will have different "standards" for what qualifies as a Mary Sue and what doesn't? Even if the "traits" for what "classifies" as a Mary Sue were consistent (which they aren't always) a big part of a character being a Mary Sue or not is how well they are written. And people will disagree on how well (or not) a character is written. Ike and Micaiah and the FE13!MU can all be Mary Sues to some people. And to others one or more of them may be not. That doesn't make anyone WRONG. It just means you have different standards as to what qualifies as a Mary Sue and what does, and THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE.

And for the record the only time I give a fuck about Mary Sues is when I'm the one writing the characters.

[Anacybele]

Fine, I guess people really do have different standards as to what makes a Mary Sue/Gary Stu and what doesn't. And as you say, it's best to care the most about your own characters when it comes to this.

[Rewjeo]

Neither Ike nor Micaiah are Sues from the self-insert standpoint. IMO, Micaiah is potentially more interesting, but unfortunately writing her well took a backseat to... just about everything else. I do believe that well-written Micaiah could be one of the best characters in the series, though.

[ButteredToast]

Man, I knew I shouldn't have posted this topic. Sorry :(

[Silver Lightning]

Man, I knew I shouldn't have posted this topic. Sorry :(

Sadly, this is usually what threads like these devolve into; it always comes down to Ike vs. Micaiah vs. Robin. It never ends....

Can we just agree that different people will have different "standards" for what qualifies as a Mary Sue and what doesn't? Even if the "traits" for what "classifies" as a Mary Sue were consistent (which they aren't always) a big part of a character being a Mary Sue or not is how well they are written. And people will disagree on how well (or not) a character is written. Ike and Micaiah and the FE13!MU can all be Mary Sues to some people. And to others one or more of them may be not. That doesn't make anyone WRONG. It just means you have different standards as to what qualifies as a Mary Sue and what does, and THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE.

And for the record the only time I give a fuck about Mary Sues is when I'm the one writing the characters.

Amen to that. The terms "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" are terms that have far too many different definitions to far too many different people to have any use describing characters.