link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Tables]

Eh? Weren't you talking about using Stillness in FE9?

[Psych]

Yeah, but it's not really able to be compared since the value isn't the same due to higher caps and the ability for more skills in FE10

[Nicolas]

I've got crazy idea: FE8 Reclass Link Arena!

In this weekend I have time to host it!

[AnonymousSpeed]

I've got crazy idea: FE8 Reclass Link Arena!

In this weekend I have time to host it!

That sounds fun! Berserker with light affinity...what a world.

[Tables]

I've got crazy idea: FE8 Reclass Link Arena!

In this weekend I have time to host it!

Ohh boy. I think I'd be up for that.

In the realm of crazy ideas, I had one for, well any metagame but I think FE9 could be most interesting: Reverse team building. You build a team (with certain restrictions - things like, as much cap as possible must be used on each unit, all weapon slots filled with weapons from the common list, all items distributed to people who can use them, everyone must be either a dragon, a royal, or have a support/bond in the team etc.) that ensure at least moderate level competency), then you switch teams with your opponent. They can then make certain small changes (not sure exactly what yet, probably switching one skill around, choosing each equipped weapon/item, maybe switching one or two around) and then you battle.

It's probably be dumb and it'd need an actually complete set of rules, but maybe it'd be funny to see what kind of terrible teams people can make within the rules.

[General Horace]

sounds kind of like SOYO'S in drafting, actually which were always amazing.

maybe you'd be able to pick somebody's team but you'd be able to sort out boosters (if boosters were allowed) and skills and such.

Edited March 10, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

We don't even have a clear idea what they actually do in-game!

they affect the AI. they don't affect the player.

i don't understand the reasoning here: we don't know exactly how they work in the game, so let's make things up! scrap shade/provoke altogether, please. nihil is powerful enough already.

They likely make it if there's another viable target, the enemy will attack them before the Shade target and vice versa for Provoke.

all anecdotal evidence has pointed to provoke and shade having inconsistent effects on AI.

Edited March 10, 2014 by dondon151

[Tables]

sounds kind of like SOYO'S in drafting, actually which were always amazing.

maybe you'd be able to pick somebody's team but you'd be able to sort out boosters (if boosters were allowed) and skills and such.

So you just choose the characters, and they have to put the team together from it? That would probably work.

[ZemZem]

I've got crazy idea: FE8 Reclass Link Arena!

In this weekend I have time to host it!

I like the sound of this.

[General Horace]

So you just choose the characters, and they have to put the team together from it? That would probably work.

I think it'd work better with a pool of like 13-18 randomly selected units, otherwise we'd see a lot of units like Sothe.

Alternatively, there could be a game mode where you and your opponent pick your own team from a randomly selected group of units too I guess.

Edited March 10, 2014 by General Horace

[PKL]

they affect the AI. they don't affect the player.

i don't understand the reasoning here: we don't know exactly how they work in the game, so let's make things up! scrap shade/provoke altogether, please. nihil is powerful enough already.

all anecdotal evidence has pointed to provoke and shade having inconsistent effects on AI.

Nihil-less meta plz.

[Espinosa]

Nihil doesn't have the best distribution in the metagame.

In FE10, you have Ike and Nolan with the skill, both probably among the better characters, so whenever we get to playing that, it might be more complicated to decide what to do with it there.

[PKL]

Nihil doesn't have the best distribution in the metagame.

In FE10, you have Ike and Nolan with the skill, both probably among the better characters, so whenever we get to playing that, it might be more complicated to decide what to do with it there.

You're underestimating Nihil severely. Calill might be a bit weak, but she's still a really big threat because of Nihil. She hits most of the meta for more than half their HP, can run Vantage or Resolve along with Nihil, which is a pretty tough combo! Using an all-Nihil team makes it stats vs stats and not much thought involved if im being honest. You don't have to scout anything because lol everyone negates everything. You don't worry about any of the opponent's skills because lol you negate everything (thus making custom skills completely irrelevant) and you can still run your own skills.

EDIT Add: In other words, what Im trying to say is that full-Nihil is lame, unfun and I'd be surprised if Refa (or anyone else running the team) doesnt win.

EDIT 2: We should consider doing something about Nihil after the tournament.

Edited March 10, 2014 by PKL

[Tables]

Before taking drastic action I think a question to ask is, can it be dealt with sensibly? I'm not sure just how good Nasir is statwise, but Calill at least takes up a lot of resources. It's possible some teams which just have a combination of good units with good supports will simply outmatch them on the whole.

[General Horace]

well nihil teams are more like stats + skills vs just stats which is kinda unfair. Like straight up nihil teams lose statwise, but they still have access to all their skills.

but yeah it should probably be sorted out after the tourney unless somehow nihil teams start failing hard

nasir is really strong statwise, althoug he'd like at least a couple of speedwings. His only real flaw is his gauge. Another reason why he's so good is he has nihil and an additional 25 Skillpoints since dragons have 40.

i guess nasir kinda has hit issues too.

Edited March 10, 2014 by General Horace

[PKL]

Before taking drastic action I think a question to ask is, can it be dealt with sensibly? I'm not sure just how good Nasir is statwise, but Calill at least takes up a lot of resources. It's possible some teams which just have a combination of good units with good supports will simply outmatch them on the whole.

They can run units that need no/little investment like Makalov and Ike though and pour all their boosters on the 2 Nihilists that need them, Calill and Nasir.

Like Horace said, it's really a battle of stats+skills (Nihil team) vs stats only (any other team)

EDIT: Which reminds me, why is Ike still allowed? It seems problems are all he causes. Ban Ragnell, Ban Oscar, hes still one of the best. Why not just flat out ban him and get it over with?

Edited March 11, 2014 by PKL

[Espinosa]

All-Nihil is not a possibility because at most a team can have 3 Nihil users. Running Calill implies a huge resource dump, and running Nasir usually implies not having an armour, and armours are pretty big (I guess Resolve armour + 2-3 wings Nasir is still viable enough) right now; all three of them to some extent (Tauroneo > Brom > Gatrie).

Calill does 2HKO a lot of the metagame, including unboosted Ike with 18 res, but that's with Rexbolt (which weighs her down and needs a ring not to get her doubled). Thunder nuking is nowhere as effective on the other hand. Calill also has to wait for somebody to be in KO range in order to finish off with huge magical chip, and the same can be done on the physical side by, say, Boyd, Brom or Largo. All of them have 30 or so str, and attack with 20-21 mt weapons rather than 9 mt Thunder. Calill has innate Nihil, but that's all she wins. Resolve is kinda wasted on her, really.

I went against an "all-Nihil team" in losers' round 2 and was really close to winning in spite of running 3 mid tier characters (Stefan, Soren, Ranulf). No serious faults on Horace's part in that game either. So I think you greatly exaggerate the prowess of teams built around Nihil. How about teams built around two Snipers or around the brother bond? There's quite a lot to complain about there if you were really up for it (but really, a variety of equally viable teams is really good, and I'm pretty happy with where we currently are with the meta).

We still haven't had any Nihil team vs. Nihil team matches yet. If Nihil were universally seen as broken as you claim it to be, I'm sure we would've had some by now.

Also note that Nihil becoming popular means... that Nihil becomes less popular. Namely, Calill, as any caster, doesn't like encounters with Nasir at all (who can easily double her and cripple if she has a Laguzguard). So a prospect "Nihil-dominant" meta is still a meta with 2 Nihil users - Nasir and some other random guy of choice. And honestly, it's hardly the case that you would put Nasir unto every team you make (personally I'd rather have a second Resolver in Tauroneo).

[PKL]

All-Nihil is not a possibility because at most a team can have 3 Nihil users. Running Calill implies a huge resource dump, and running Nasir usually implies not having an armour, and armours are pretty big (I guess Resolve armour + 2-3 wings Nasir is still viable enough) right now; all three of them to some extent (Tauroneo > Brom > Gatrie).

Calill does 2HKO a lot of the metagame, including unboosted Ike with 18 res, but that's with Rexbolt (which weighs her down and needs a ring not to get her doubled). Thunder nuking is nowhere as effective on the other hand. Calill also has to wait for somebody to be in KO range in order to finish off with huge magical chip, and the same can be done on the physical side by, say, Boyd, Brom or Largo. All of them have 30 or so str, and attack with 20-21 mt weapons rather than 9 mt Thunder. Calill has innate Nihil, but that's all she wins. Resolve is kinda wasted on her, really.

I went against an "all-Nihil team" in losers' round 2 and was really close to winning in spite of running 3 mid tier characters (Stefan, Soren, Ranulf). No serious faults on Horace's part in that game either. So I think you greatly exaggerate the prowess of teams built around Nihil. How about teams built around two Snipers or around the brother bond? There's quite a lot to complain about there if you were really up for it (but really, a variety of equally viable teams is really good, and I'm pretty happy with where we currently are with the meta).

We still haven't had any Nihil team vs. Nihil team matches yet. If Nihil were universally seen as broken as you claim it to be, I'm sure we would've had some by now.

Also note that Nihil becoming popular means... that Nihil becomes less popular. Namely, Calill, as any caster, doesn't like encounters with Nasir at all (who can easily double her and cripple if she has a Laguzguard). So a prospect "Nihil-dominant" meta is still a meta with 2 Nihil users - Nasir and some other random guy of choice. And honestly, it's hardly the case that you would put Nasir unto every team you make (personally I'd rather have a second Resolver in Tauroneo).

But you suck, so how can I trust what youre saying? :) Joking. But really, time will tell if its truly OP or not. I'm leaning towards it being OP based on evidence. You're just theorycrafting.

[Espinosa]

But you suck, so how can I trust what youre saying? :) Joking. But really, time will tell if its truly OP or not. I'm leaning towards it being OP based on evidence. You're just theorycrafting.

If you mean the tourney match you lost, you kinda misplayed against the opposing Calill tbqh

[Hawkeye]

Ike definitely doesn't need to be banned anymore than any top tier unit does.

[Refa]

I don't see why Ike needs to be banned...He's not particularly better than any of the paladins.

[PKL]

If you mean the tourney match you lost, you kinda misplayed against the opposing Calill tbqh

Not really. Any attack of mine wouldve put Calill in Resolve range (no way to know if she had it or not really) and the Vague KAtti crit was my best shot at outright winning the game. (vague katti works for everyone else, why shouldnt it for me, right? but welp). Anyway, if Refa had chosen to cripple my Tauro with his Nihil, I lost anyway, so I had to do whatever I could to prevent her from doing that. But there was really no way but risky moves.

[Tables]

They can run units that need no/little investment like Makalov and Ike though and pour all their boosters on the 2 Nihilists that need them, Calill and Nasir.

I remain unconvinced. Calill has a bad support pool, bond only with someone else who is booster reliant, while Nasir obviously has no support pool or bonds. That means a team built around stat advantage can probably easily get it, as they can have more units with better stats, plus bonds, plus supports. The Nihil team has a skill advantage as a result, but considering Nihil eats a big chunk of capacity anyway, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage. Then again I'm no expert, just someone who feels a ban/significant action is premature without further evidence that Nihil teams are dominant.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel that most non-Nihil teams are often about the skills - they have their clever or just powerful skill combinations and happily use otherwise poor units, in order to take advantage of their innate skills (e.g. Tauroneo, Deadeye Snipers, Aether Ike etc.). Very few teams are more focused on simply having the stat/support/bond advantage. But I think those style of teams would be the strongest against a Nihil team.

[PKL]

I remain unconvinced. Calill has a bad support pool, bond only with someone else who is booster reliant, while Nasir obviously has no support pool or bonds. That means a team built around stat advantage can probably easily get it, as they can have more units with better stats, plus bonds, plus supports. The Nihil team has a skill advantage as a result, but considering Nihil eats a big chunk of capacity anyway, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage. Then again I'm no expert, just someone who feels a ban/significant action is premature without further evidence that Nihil teams are dominant.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel that most non-Nihil teams are often about the skills - they have their clever or just powerful skill combinations and happily use otherwise poor units, in order to take advantage of their innate skills (e.g. Tauroneo, Deadeye Snipers, Aether Ike etc.). Very few teams are more focused on simply having the stat/support/bond advantage. But I think those style of teams would be the strongest against a Nihil team.

So, basically, the meta should revolve around countering Nihil teams? Heh. You do realize there is a thing called "overcentralization"? Sure, a team made against Nihil will have a good shot, but why should teams have to be built around countering an specific something?

Edited March 11, 2014 by PKL

[AnonymousSpeed]

Ike definitely doesn't need to be banned anymore than any top tier unit does.

I don't see why Ike needs to be banned...He's not particularly better than any of the paladins.

Without Ragnell or Oscar, Ike isn't really all that powerful compared to Osar, Makaman, Tauroneo, Snipers (who often KO Ike). I mean, he's stronger and his supports are amazing, but he isn't all that much stronger. I haven't run Ike on most of my teams and a lot of people, including ones who beat my Ike-less team, don't either.

If we're still on shade/provoke, I like them as is, they do actually add some strategy.