link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[PKL]

I can host.

[Refa]

Sorry, for which idea?

The old draft Link Arena team one.

[Vennobennu]

Alright then, I'll start work on my team.

[General Horace]

I can host.

Hopefully you were referring to the match between anon and I, because I sent you my team!

Also I might have forgotten to use cut supports. SO GOOD

It also might be terrible but that's beside the point.

Edited May 9, 2014 by General Horace

[PKL]

Hopefully you were referring to the match between anon and I, because I sent you my team!

Also I might have forgotten to use cut supports. SO GOOD

It also might be terrible but that's beside the point.

Yeah, i was referring to your match vs Anon. Anon hasnt sent me his team. Also, is it no cutweapons?

[General Horace]

I was under the impression that people thought Rexflame was too OP so yeah, no cut weapons.

also my team would get owned by it

Edited May 9, 2014 by General Horace

[PKL]

Honestly, Resolve is more OP and we leave it there. Rexflame is a 1:1 at best against 27spd or lower units, usually only taking out a unit with low enough Res and speed and then the Rexflame guy is killed next turn. Of course, if you play wrong you can lose a lot to it, just like you can lose 2-3 units to Resolve.

[General Horace]

i've never actually used rexflame, so I dunno haha

if anon wants to use cut weapons too, i'll do it, but i'd probably want to remake my team

[General Horace]

Resolve can be worked around though, avoiding knocking them into range, Nihil, etc. Rexflame is pretty much just like "Hi one of your units dies now"

Calill can have 111 avoid with it too. And you can add resolve on top of that and well...

Edited May 9, 2014 by General Horace

[Elieson]

Honestly, Resolve is more OP and we leave it there. Rexflame is a 1:1 at best against 27spd or lower units, usually only taking out a unit with low enough Res and speed and then the Rexflame guy is killed next turn. Of course, if you play wrong you can lose a lot to it, just like you can lose 2-3 units to Resolve.

Rexflame doesn't get equipped by defensive tanks ala Nasir. While it counters everything (bar Guard I guess), its users aren't blessed with the end-all-be-all of accurate hitrates, so it can be countered by units with High Avo, and by Mist/ Elincia to an extent (or Naesala? That should be tested). But the point being, it's the single thing that makes units like Tormod viable, and Ilyana kind of more usable. I think the reason people want to ban Rexflame is because of how powerful it is on Calill, rather than how powerful it is in general.

[Psych]

We have a Ragnall ban on Ike, maybe a Rexflame ban when on Calill

[Elieson]

We have a Ragnall ban on Ike, maybe a Rexflame ban when on Calill

Not like this can realistically be tested, but I was gunning for this, if anything even has to be done about it at all.

[Espinosa]

Sages still put a huge dent into armours. No need to make them any more desired. If you think keeping Rexflame promotes the usage of previously lacklustre units (Tormod, Ilyana et al), then remember that forcing it into the metagame makes the Generals pretty bad, and also erases some of the valid team ideas featuring Brom/Tauroneo/Gatrie as part of support chains. And that's a lot of teams!

[Elieson]

Sages still put a huge dent into armours. No need to make them any more desired. If you think keeping Rexflame promotes the usage of previously lacklustre units (Tormod, Ilyana et al), then remember that forcing it into the metagame makes the Generals pretty bad, and also erases some of the valid team ideas featuring Brom/Tauroneo/Gatrie as part of support chains. And that's a lot of teams!

Then does that mean that Brom/Tauroneo/Gatrie are too centralized in the meta, since most if not all teams include at least one of them these days?

[PKL]

Exactly, I dont see less armors as a bad thing lol.

[General Horace]

nobody uses gatrie

[Elieson]

Bastian now supports Gatrie!

[Espinosa]

Then does that mean that Brom/Tauroneo/Gatrie are too centralized in the meta, since most if not all teams include at least one of them these days?

Gatrie's very rare nowadays (even though Shinon got nice new supports in the cut supports meta, but nobody seems to care); Tauroneo has been absent for a while; Brom is present mostly since his Makalov support has been hyped up (but really, you shouldn't take too many rounds to KO him when he has that +3 def as opposed to any other support that gives him +1 def instead - one at best and not necessarily always the case).

Calill isn't going anyway, Rexflame or not, but Generals could disappear entirely if she becomes as centralising as it smells like at the moment (other Sages to a lesser extent because no innate Nihil).

[PKL]

Calill counters Armors, Rexflame or not. And like i said, its a 1 for 1 at best. Sages are too frail.

Edited May 9, 2014 by PKL

[Elieson]

Gatrie's very rare nowadays (even though Shinon got nice new supports in the cut supports meta, but nobody seems to care); Tauroneo has been absent for a while; Brom is present mostly since his Makalov support has been hyped up (but really, you shouldn't take too many rounds to KO him when he has that +3 def as opposed to any other support that gives him +1 def instead - one at best and not necessarily always the case).

Calill isn't going anyway, Rexflame or not, but Generals could disappear entirely if she becomes as centralising as it smells like at the moment (other Sages to a lesser extent because no innate Nihil).

So

FMPOV, sages are generally useless without Rexflame (with the exception of Calill, who still has middling hitrates against most of the game). That aside, there's 4 sages other than Calill, and 3 generals. Tormod suddenly becomes Viable, Ilyana becomes viable, and in doing so, we can remove Skill speculation around Shade, and hell, even Bastian becomes some kind of decent, with ok sage stats and enough str to hold Rexflame without any AS loss.

3 for 3, if you will. Sorry soren, you still suck in Avgs meta

[Elieson]

Calill   40   12   26   25   24   20   14   22   70   68   12   24
Bastian  39   15   24   26   20   18   14   24   70   58   13   26
Tormod   40   10   26   24   26   19   14   25   67   69   12   24
Soren    39    4   30   28   25   16   10   28   71   66   14   28
Ilyana   39   11   26   27   21   21   10   28   75   63   13   27

Rexflame has 14 wt, meaning that Bastian only needs 1 speedwing to suffice (2 to avoid being doubled by everybody bar Giffca, Naesala and superLaguz), which still leaves 2 speedwings for other people on a support-centralized team, like 1 for each of Geoffrey and Elincia. Makalov and Ike fit into these teams, and require no other speedwings, allowing a trash tier unit to actually exist in the meta, and allows for a unique thing, Elincia+Sage to coexist on a team. I dunno how that'd play out, but it's something that you haven't been able to see by even the longest of stretches.

Bastian supporting makalov, and having Rexflame exist at all, makes for a few interesting team combinations. He supports Gatrie(unused) too, but Gatrie is still Gatrie. I dunno, options exist.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

Calill counters Armors, Rexflame or not. And like i said, its a 1 for 1 at best. Sages are too frail.

It's a big deal if your armour is also your Nihil/Resolve user.

Also here's the list of key units @ base stats Rexflame!Calill 2HKOs in one round without taking supports into account:

Oscar 30/49 on the first strike

Boyd 33/60

Kieran 32/50

Brom 31/55

Neph 31/44

Makalov 33/51

Gatrie 32/59

Tauroneo 27/52

Geoff 31/49

Largo 38/60 [no speedwings]

Elincia 22/38

Some of them can prevent the 1RKO from occurring by equipping the KW and taking both Talismans, in many cases a robe, but it's still really broken. It's kind of a hax button that you can try pressing against many key units, and with Calill's dark affinity / other favourable variables you can be sure that she will frequently dodge the counter, getting away with killing a unit in one turn. Notice that we're talking about "reliable" units who do not mind being struck by a VK crit a lot of the time - their reliability completely goes down the drain in a Rexflame meta.

We do have dodgey units in the meta, like booster-stacked Lethe with Resolve or the Earth support people, but at least they don't threaten to kill something (a lot of things) in one single turn!

[Elieson]

It's a big deal if your armour is also your Nihil/Resolve user.

Then maybe you shouldn't always have your slowest unit be your Nisolver!

Calill!RF still isn't even gaurenteed to hit everybody. Her hitrates average about the 60s or so...Resolve blows that out of the water.

[AnonymousSpeed]

nobody uses gatrie

I use Gatrie.

Bastian now supports Gatrie!

No one uses Bastian.

Calill   40   12   26   25   24   20   14   22   70   68   12   24
Bastian  39   15   24   26   20   18   14   24   70   58   13   26
Tormod   40   10   26   24   26   19   14   25   67   69   12   24
Soren    39    4   30   28   25   16   10   28   71   66   14   28
Ilyana   39   11   26   27   21   21   10   28   75   63   13   27

Rexflame has 14 wt, meaning that Bastian only needs 1 speedwing to suffice (2 to avoid being doubled by everybody bar Giffca, Naesala and superLaguz), which still leaves 2 speedwings for other people on a support-centralized team, like 1 for each of Geoffrey and Elincia. Makalov and Ike fit into these teams, and require no other speedwings, allowing a trash tier unit to actually exist in the meta, and allows for a unique thing, Elincia+Sage to coexist on a team. I dunno how that'd play out, but it's something that you haven't been able to see by even the longest of stretches.

Bastian supporting makalov, and having Rexflame exist at all, makes for a few interesting team combinations. He supports Gatrie(unused) too, but Gatrie is still Gatrie. I dunno, options exist.

...15 strength...I'm temped to use Bastian.

[PKL]

It's a big deal if your armour is also your Nihil/Resolve user.

Also here's the list of key units @ base stats Rexflame!Calill 2HKOs in one round without taking supports into account:

Oscar 30/49 on the first strike

Boyd 33/60

Kieran 32/50

Brom 31/55

Neph 31/44

Makalov 33/51

Gatrie 32/59

Tauroneo 27/52

Geoff 31/49

Largo 38/60 [no speedwings]

Elincia 22/38

Some of them can prevent the 1RKO from occurring by equipping the KW and taking both Talismans, in many cases a robe, but it's still really broken. It's kind of a hax button that you can try pressing against many key units, and with Calill's dark affinity / other favourable variables you can be sure that she will frequently dodge the counter, getting away with killing a unit in one turn. Notice that we're talking about "reliable" units who do not mind being struck by a VK crit a lot of the time - their reliability completely goes down the drain in a Rexflame meta.

We do have dodgey units in the meta, like booster-stacked Lethe with Resolve or the Earth support people, but at least they don't threaten to kill something (a lot of things) in one single turn!

Most units suck at base, which is why give them statboosters. Ideally, none of those units are going to have that issue your presented. Plenty of stuff would be bannable if we saw base stats only.