link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[dondon151]

Looks like I haven't considered some of the variables at players' disposal. Ilyana could always end up with a Laguzguard (it was ZM's initial desire to do so before I urged against it), which also has usage in making Ilyana better if she's your last survivor going against a royal, as it prevents her from being 2HKO'd by Tibarn (not sure if still the case since we added him a point of str; kinda busy to look at all the numbers right now) and Naesala. Ilyana with a Laguzguard now survives two attacks from Nasir as well, possibly countering with Rexbolt for really heavy damage and, if Flare activates / the 6% crit kicks in, leaves Nasir vulnerable to a finisher from Ilyana's teammate next turn. So the variables are still there and the players are expected to react to what happens rather it being a clear "5-4, job done, next turn".

there is literally no reason to put a laguzguard on ilyana except to get an extra round of combat on the off chance that the opponent has nasir (and not like, lucia, who would kill ilyana anyway with parity). and you are suggesting that the best option that ilyana has against nasir is to fish for a crit or a flare proc, as opposed to using anything remotely reliable. if nasir gets off a laguz stone use, ilyana's counter doesn't do very much to nasir anyway, and either way: congratulations, you just wasted a laguzguard.

[shadykid]

I motion to just ban mages for excessive sucking

there I saved everyone some trouble

[Espinosa]

Well, this sure halted firmly as I was gone. I guess I've might had unreasonable expectations when I thought battles "could run themselves" without any mediation.

there is literally no reason to put a laguzguard on ilyana except to get an extra round of combat on the off chance that the opponent has nasir (and not like, lucia, who would kill ilyana anyway with parity). and you are suggesting that the best option that ilyana has against nasir is to fish for a crit or a flare proc, as opposed to using anything remotely reliable. if nasir gets off a laguz stone use, ilyana's counter doesn't do very much to nasir anyway, and either way: congratulations, you just wasted a laguzguard.

Shouldn't you be complaining about Lucia being the perfect Ilyana counter then? Ilyana can avoid being one-rounded by Nasir by getting a Laguzguard (which I cited as also being useful in granting Ilyana an extra endgame turn by keeping her alive against Tibarn or Naesala), but nothing's saving her from Lucia (who's a tiny bit away from 2HKOing with a Brave Sword so she'll probably take a counter attacking with a Silver instead, or maybe Vague Katti for a higher chance to KO with the first hit).

A bunch of characters are just good against each other though. Ilyana and Largo wallop Gatrie (and Largo destroys Brom as well), SMs and Snipers cover each other well (Shinon still doubled by SMs with the new stats) while everybody else has more even matchups that depend on circumstance. 28+ AS sword users threaten Boyd (who is still the hardest-hitting bow user in the metagame).

Ilyana proccing Flare while countering Nasir with Rexbolt tears off 43/60 HP and can safely KO him next turn, making Nasir counters to Ilyana risky. If she doesn't proc Flare, being in the same team as Giffca allows the lion royal to deal 42/60 damage, so Ilyana could be equipped with a more accurate tome for the first counter. The reason why I was mentioning crit at all is because Ilyana with Rexbolt has displayed crit comparable to that of a sniper/SM/Largo.

wrt Laguz Stone - I think we should not intergrate this into the metagame even though the first post mentioned it for a while (because I thought it would encourage the use of laguz before we allowed the royals). Because then why not allow Elixirs to make some stupidly stally strats? The Demi Band exists too, Nasir and Janaff being its top users in the no boosters metagame.

[ZemZem]

Hmm...still quite a bit of unsolved plans, it seems.

Another match soon? Though we should've planned one ourselves while you were gone, haha.

[Espinosa]

I want to take part as one of the players in the next one (because I'm most probably missing out on some stuff while observing the games as a 'bot') so I'm going to need both a partner and a third person to run the game. I believe PKL wanted to help out, so that variant would be great (with me and the second player sending our teams to PKL instead).

I have two ideas for teams in mind, one ultra-offensive and another ultra-defensive. No clue how they'd work against each other and/or other people's teams built around different concerns than what I have in mind right now.

[dondon151]

Shouldn't you be complaining about Lucia being the perfect Ilyana counter then? Ilyana can avoid being one-rounded by Nasir by getting a Laguzguard (which I cited as also being useful in granting Ilyana an extra endgame turn by keeping her alive against Tibarn or Naesala), but nothing's saving her from Lucia (who's a tiny bit away from 2HKOing with a Brave Sword so she'll probably take a counter attacking with a Silver instead, or maybe Vague Katti for a higher chance to KO with the first hit).

but lucia blows. she receives no supports (because parity is passive), has a paltry 19 str, and her defensive parameters are terrible. nasir at least is really bulky and hits pretty hard (this is with the laguz band or laguz stone assumption that i'll cover later). i would not run lucia on any team just to counter ilyana because you basically have a 50% chance that you'll go second and lose your only ilyana counter, since literally anything with a brave lance can ORKO lucia.

A bunch of characters are just good against each other though. Ilyana and Largo wallop Gatrie (and Largo destroys Brom as well), SMs and Snipers cover each other well (Shinon still doubled by SMs with the new stats) while everybody else has more even matchups that depend on circumstance. 28+ AS sword users threaten Boyd (who is still the hardest-hitting bow user in the metagame).

largo doesn't destroy gatrie at all depending on how defensive gatrie gets. gatrie can get up to 38 def and WTA against largo, which means that largo isn't really doing much unless he gets a critical hit, and he eats a pretty heavy counter. but more importantly, largo takes enough damage from a counter that he's an easy kill on the subsequent turn for a unit with a brave bow. ilyana is a bigger problem for gatrie, but she can't ORKO him without a crit or a double flare proc, and gatrie is still remarkable for being nearly impenetrable by anyone else. unlike boyd, who gets destroyed by probably the most common unit in the metagame (ike) and similarly countered by any SM or falcoknight.

wrt Laguz Stone - I think we should not intergrate this into the metagame even though the first post mentioned it for a while (because I thought it would encourage the use of laguz before we allowed the royals). Because then why not allow Elixirs to make some stupidly stally strats? The Demi Band exists too, Nasir and Janaff being its top users in the no boosters metagame.

is this a serious question? elixirs will obviously break the metagame. laguz stones obviously won't. and laguz are generally not viable without their full transformation gains.

[Espinosa]

Some have noticed the effective weaponry poll (should've made the votes public so that it's less disoriented and the votes can be connected to the posts in the topic), which I added in in response to Dio's old question about using the Japanese or Western formula for eff. damage calculation.

Hammer and Poleaxes suddenly hit really hard if we switch to the original Japanese effective Might, Laguzslaying weapons become a big threat (even the sword if in the hands of Ike or even Zihark) and some otherwise neglected weapons like Knight Killer become somewhat viable.

I think the biggest difference this would bring is reduce the motivation to deploy any royal other than Giffca, because arrows hurt Naesala/Tibarn too much once their natural gauge has depleted (unless we introduce the Laguz Stones as intended from the start) and they would get less exposure as a result because any Paladin making it to the lategame could bring a 54 eff Mt Silver Bow forge to 2HKO them with ease (or KO after a tiny bit of chip damage).

I guess Giffca wouldn't be safe either, with fire-bombing from Ilyana dealing significant damage (and even stuff like Flame Lances I guess) and Largo 2HKOing with a Laguz Axe (the Paladins are some points short due to lacking in +atk supports).

Units who aren't weak to anything (Ike and other foots) and Ilyana (all tomes are effective against something) would benefit the most from it; Ilyana maybe less because the Full Guard is expected to be on early on, at least on the bird royals.

but lucia blows. she receives no supports (because parity is passive), has a paltry 19 str, and her defensive parameters are terrible. nasir at least is really bulky and hits pretty hard (this is with the laguz band or laguz stone assumption that i'll cover later). i would not run lucia on any team just to counter ilyana because you basically have a 50% chance that you'll go second and lose your only ilyana counter, since literally anything with a brave lance can ORKO lucia.

Agreed on Lucia. You can still get a turn for her, guaranteed, if you deploy Provoke Shinon, though, but this is all a bit too much just to take Ilyana out I think (there are more little strats for Provoke teams out there, though).

A somewhat big question here is whether Ilyana is even worth running Nasir for, and whether her potential invincibility for the duration of most of the battle is an issue for balance and the options when building a team (seems like a problem enough for Gatrie). I want to test this with a stall team I've got in mind.

largo doesn't destroy gatrie at all depending on how defensive gatrie gets. gatrie can get up to 38 def and WTA against largo, which means that largo isn't really doing much unless he gets a critical hit, and he eats a pretty heavy counter. but more importantly, largo takes enough damage from a counter that he's an easy kill on the subsequent turn for a unit with a brave bow. ilyana is a bigger problem for gatrie, but she can't ORKO him without a crit or a double flare proc, and gatrie is still remarkable for being nearly impenetrable by anyone else. unlike boyd, who gets destroyed by probably the most common unit in the metagame (ike) and similarly countered by any SM or falcoknight.

That's true - 51 atk with a Silver Axe forge isn't doing a whole lot against that Gatrie setup you mentioned (though even with a sword, his avo is so low that he's impossible to whiff). The Brave Bow mention sounds strange to my ears though because the Sniper is likely to be taken out first (it could chance to be on a bulky Paladin like Oscar instead though). But yeah, Largo still has some defensive issues even no longer doubled by SMs. That high HP still makes him bulkier than somebody like Marcia or the SMs though (didn't run the calcs but seems right).

is this a serious question? elixirs will obviously break the metagame. laguz stones obviously won't. and laguz are generally not viable without their full transformation gains.

You were pedantic about staying true to the past link arenas and the game's real mechanics at one point, so I'm not entirely (or much at all) joking with that parallel between the two. Laguz Stones can be used multiple times to keep you transformed, they are also a stall mechanic that defensive teams can use not to act on their turn and wait for a counter opportunity instead (I've seen plenty of times where this was topical in normal battles so far). Ike and the Paladins like this a lot with Sol, as does anybody who needs a specfiic number of specific attacks to KO without taking too much damage. An Elixir is obviously more gamebreaking in that you can just sit there and use them while countering (either player), and could result in boring and stupid fights. If we are pedantic, Elixir and Laguz Stones are both items that take up a turn to be used and allow a unit to circumvent having to choose a target for their next attack.

[dondon151]

Some have noticed the effective weaponry poll (should've made the votes public so that it's less disoriented and the votes can be connected to the posts in the topic), which I added in in response to Dio's old question about using the Japanese or Western formula for eff. damage calculation.

Hammer and Poleaxes suddenly hit really hard if we switch to the original Japanese effective Might, Laguzslaying weapons become a big threat (even the sword if in the hands of Ike or even Zihark) and some otherwise neglected weapons like Knight Killer become somewhat viable.

JPN effective damage calculation would be okay, but in that case we should probably ban ragnell again, or introduce more favorable transformation mechanics for laguz.

A somewhat big question here is whether Ilyana is even worth running Nasir for, and whether her potential invincibility for the duration of most of the battle is an issue for balance and the options when building a team (seems like a problem enough for Gatrie). I want to test this with a stall team I've got in mind.

i also had a stall team focusing on ilyana in mind. mind sharing yours with me?

You were pedantic about staying true to the past link arenas and the game's real mechanics at one point, so I'm not entirely (or much at all) joking with that parallel between the two. Laguz Stones can be used multiple times to keep you transformed, they are also a stall mechanic that defensive teams can use not to act on their turn and wait for a counter opportunity instead (I've seen plenty of times where this was topical in normal battles so far). Ike and the Paladins like this a lot with Sol, as does anybody who needs a specfiic number of specific attacks to KO without taking too much damage. An Elixir is obviously more gamebreaking in that you can just sit there and use them while countering (either player), and could result in boring and stupid fights. If we are pedantic, Elixir and Laguz Stones are both items that take up a turn to be used and allow a unit to circumvent having to choose a target for their next attack.

when we are talking about laguz stones in the first place, we've already gone past strict adherence to GBA link arena mechanics (especially since the GBA games don't have laguz).

anyway i was under the assumption that you'd both be able to use a laguz stone and attack in the same turn (this would eliminate laguz stone stalling). that kind of nullifies the drawback of the transformation mechanic altogether, although i don't think that the transformation mechanic really has a place in link arena anyway, given that laguz are generally mediocre already without having to deal with transformation penalties. if you throw in the 3x effective weapons, you might as well just let laguz all start transformed at 20 gauge.

[Espinosa]

i also had a stall team focusing on ilyana in mind. mind sharing yours with me?

I haven't typed it down yet or anything, but it's probably similar to yours. How about we have a battle instead; are you still up for one? Some empirical tests would greatly add to all the pages of talking carried out in the topic thus far as well as the recent average stat changes that we still haven't played a game with.

when we are talking about laguz stones in the first place, we've already gone past strict adherence to GBA link arena mechanics (especially since the GBA games don't have laguz).

anyway i was under the assumption that you'd both be able to use a laguz stone and attack in the same turn (this would eliminate laguz stone stalling). that kind of nullifies the drawback of the transformation mechanic altogether, although i don't think that the transformation mechanic really has a place in link arena anyway, given that laguz are generally mediocre already without having to deal with transformation penalties. if you throw in the 3x effective weapons, you might as well just let laguz all start transformed at 20 gauge.

It's true that Laguz don't exist in the GBA games, but in PoR Laguz Stone is an item consuming a use of which ends your turn. I suppose I agree that the decision we make here should take metagame balance into account more than dubious "intuitive" searching for equivalents. After all, Swordmasters not countering 1-2 range is a big enough change from the existing arenas.

Removing transformation entirely or implementing the 20/20 gauge + the stones (with or without attacking, really) means your royal of choice (maybe even Janaff, Ena and/or Nasir) essentially has dibs on a Full Guard, since they cannot equip a Laguzguard or the Knight Ward and there's no need for the Laguz/Demi Band anymore. That in turn means no effective damage against the Laguz at all, which, I suppose, could be not a bad idea at all considering the royals will never counter 2-range, fail hard at attacking two of the Beorc units on the opposing team and have no procs for piercing defences or restoring HP unlike Ike, Generals or Paladins.

I think making everybody transformed permanently wouldn't be too gamebreaking?

[dondon151]

I haven't typed it down yet or anything, but it's probably similar to yours. How about we have a battle instead; are you still up for one? Some empirical tests would greatly add to all the pages of talking carried out in the topic thus far as well as the recent average stat changes that we still haven't played a game with.

i haven't really settled on a team because i'm still not sure on the mechanics that we're agreeing on, particularly the transformation mechanics. also it might be more interesting if there was a ilyana-stall vs. non-ilyana-stall matchup.

Removing transformation entirely or implementing the 20/20 gauge + the stones (with or without attacking, really) means your royal of choice (maybe even Janaff, Ena and/or Nasir) essentially has dibs on a Full Guard, since they cannot equip a Laguzguard or the Knight Ward and there's no need for the Laguz/Demi Band anymore. That in turn means no effective damage against the Laguz at all, which, I suppose, could be not a bad idea at all considering the royals will never counter 2-range, fail hard at attacking two of the Beorc units on the opposing team and have no procs for piercing defences or restoring HP unlike Ike, Generals or Paladins.

I think making everybody transformed permanently wouldn't be too gamebreaking?

or you could make it that you can't laguz stone + attack with the same laguz unit in the same turn (which is just a miniscule change... probably doesn't do anything lol).

[Espinosa]

The mechanics are the same as in last match we had. For now, the transformation gauge begins at the level set in-game and changes every turn. I just realised that if your royal has a Full Guard on and you go second, if they get smacked during the opening turn then they don't receive effective damage during the attack. For the rest of the transformation-related rules, let's go with no Laguz Stones, must act when equipping a different accessory - same ones as before. 2x effective damage for now.

I suppose we could agree that you use a stall team with Ilyana while I use stall without her and we see how things change? Just need to find a mediator and send complete teams at that point.

[PKL]

Sure, Im up for being the mediator for that match. :)

[Espinosa]

Awesome! No problems with the rules dondon? If so, we can send our teams to PKL when ready.

[PKL]

dondon plz ;_;. How about ZM vs Espinosa while we wait for donx2?

[dondon151]

oh whoops totally forgot about this

i might send you the team later because right now i have a test to study for tomorrow as well as pressing matters to attend to

[PKL]

Alright.

[Espinosa]

I've fallen ill recently so we can probably pospone it until later. Fever-induced delirium last night wasn't fun. Even if I do end up spending much of the time online, I can't be trusted to be awake at the right time to play the game.

[PKL]

Ouch man. Hope you get better soon! Besides, Im going to be busy most of the day with college. Only could've really handled one of these matches from 3:30 PM to 6 PM, which probably wouldn't be enough time.

[charlie_]

We should really run a capture the flag thing at some point though, I've had an idea in mind for it for a while.

[Hawkeye]

I come to this forum on the off-chance that espinosa has updated his fe9 LTC run and I find this awesome project of his instead. This was really interesting to read, i'd definitely like to get involved

Edited November 22, 2013 by Hawkeye

[Espinosa]

Thanks PKL!

This thing progresses anywhere only as long as people are interested and have some initiative, though I have a feeling it might've stayed dead for good if I hadn't bumped it up. Currently the plan is that I play dondon to test some of the immense amount of talking we've done, and from there having somebody willing to run and play matches will be invaluable (because I have a feeling I'm likely to start disappearing judging by the way life works out at the moment).

For the stall match with dondon, I should be able to play any time next week (really busy but flexible with this), and since I'm back in Europe the time here is UTC +2 and I mostly tend to adhere to traditional sleeping schedules occasionally staying up late and waking up also late. I think it's a good idea to type my team down already so that when the three sides are all present the game can begin.

[PKL]

Just letting you guys know that I'm gonna be gone all weekend. Because smash tournament. Don't count on me for any matches before Monday. So get another mediator for that D:

[Espinosa]

Posting to say that I've got my team typed down, ready to be sent to the host (PKL or anybody else) once we're ready to go. I also just realised that there doesn't have to be one mediator for the same game and the teams could be sent to a replacement if the first host has to go or the game drags on due to one of the sides being idle, so that's something to consider in case of emergency.

After this stall experiment, I think we can try running a few games with 3x effective weapons, what does everyone say? The support for the second option in the poll has been overwhelming. Also, Ike may not receive another boon with 3x effective damage around considering that as a swordlocked unit he doesn't have much access to such weapons. The units who suffer the most are the Laguz royals, and the 'gainers' are axe users like Paladins, Largo and Boyd.

[PKL]

I have class in approximately 2 hours. So, I can be the host for a match until then and then get replaced.

[Espinosa]

I really doubt we're starting the game that soon (though we might as well lol), but once dondon is donedone with his team we can gogo.