Chrom is a bad king/leader

[RJWalker]

Speaking of Emmeryn, she's an even worse ruler than Chrom, worst in the entire series by far.

She just keeps making one bad decision after another while it is always obvious that the decision is a terrible one.

[Rapier]

If I recall correctly, isn't that what their father did when he was alive? I believe it was Gangrel who brought it up but it was their father's oppression and war against Plegia for worshiping Grima and not Naga that led the Plegians to hate Ylisse so much. The toll of that war ruined both countries until Emm took over

I meant the First Exalt, not their father. Surely that after the war it became much easier to finish the Grimleal and secure Grima's Table, or destroy it. Kind of like what happened in FE4, when the Lopt Sect was persecuted for years.

[skuka]

I agree, he was totally willing to sacrifice the future lives of thousands just to keep one person alive. I picked the ending where you sacrifice yourself, but if you pick the one where the avatar doesn't, then he even says something along the lines of "Perhaps the future would have been easier if you did it, but you made the right choice." I may be alone in thinking this but doesn't he sort of seem in love with the avatar? Even if you don't marry him he is still willing to sacrifice so many lives in order to keep you alive. I can't imagine friends doing that for each other, but when people are in love they think irrationally.

[LuxSpes]

I agree, he was totally willing to sacrifice the future lives of thousands just to keep one person alive. I picked the ending where you sacrifice yourself, but if you pick the one where the avatar doesn't, then he even says something along the lines of "Perhaps the future would have been easier if you did it, but you made the right choice." I may be alone in thinking this but doesn't he sort of seem in love with the avatar? Even if you don't marry him he is still willing to sacrifice so many lives in order to keep you alive. I can't imagine friends doing that for each other, but when people are in love they think irrationally.

I did find this weird. My first run through the game, Chrom was married to the avatar and I didn't find anything too weird, but on subsequent playthrough with MaMU and FeMU that weren't paired with him, I found it very weird how 'dedicated' he is to the avatar. The line 'We are two halfs of the same whole' makes a whole lot less sense for me when Chrom is married to Sumia and the avatar is a guy.

[skuka]

I did find this weird. My first run through the game, Chrom was married to the avatar and I didn't find anything too weird, but on subsequent playthrough with MaMU and FeMU that weren't paired with him, I found it very weird how 'dedicated' he is to the avatar. The line 'We are two halfs of the same whole' makes a whole lot less sense for me when Chrom is married to Sumia and the avatar is a guy.

I know, right? He seems to care about him/her far more than Lucina and whoever he marries. He even says things like "What if I drag you down with me?" which just shows that he cares more about the avatar than himself, and considering he is the future king/leader of the shepherds isn't really a great thing to think, as so many people need him and his death would result in a lot of trouble for Ylisse. Even when you sacrifice yourself, he says something like "I will spend the rest of my days looking for you." He's a king with a wife and children, yet he'd spend the rest of his life searching for one person? If that's not proof of love then I don't know what is

Edited December 29, 2013 by skuka

[Czar_Yoshi]

I meant the First Exalt, not their father. Surely that after the war it became much easier to finish the Grimleal and secure Grima's Table, or destroy it. Kind of like what happened in FE4, when the Lopt Sect was persecuted for years.

Yes, and that persecution gave them a very good reason to want everyone else annihilated (thus reviving Loptyr). There isn't a single instance in a FE game where persecuting the followers of a defeated dark deity doesn't result in them becoming eviler and trying to destroy the world.

Now as far as Avatar goes... This might be random fanfic territory, but it seems almost like his personality changes based on who he's around. With Chrom, he's all "two halves of the same whole", whenever Morgan is around he's completely obsessed with nameless tactics (he/she is too), whenever Flavia/Basilio are around, he's hmmming and hurring and pondering how to blow something up, etc. However, he's very flat about all these aspects with anyone else; during the Lucina cutscene he's either jumping to take one for the team, completely forgetting about his earlier rhetoric about not wanting to abandon Chrom, or he's putting his own life ahead of his leader's, despite apparently knowing that Validar will make him kill Chrom. Around anyone else, he doesn't even mention Chrom unless prompted, despite being so devoted when they're together. It's almost like he mirrors the personality of the person he's speaking to. Hmm, I wonder if FE has a precedent for that...

Just speculation, of course. I doubt that's actually what the devs were thinking (they probably weren't thinking at all), but it's something I noticed.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

This is not the first time a blue haired dude giving more fucks for his fuckbuddy than his own wife

Well, kind of

Chrom might actually be the descendant of Finn. That explains everything except for his dumbassery

[Constable Reggie]

Oh my god.

Even though the game showed us how these bad decisions came back to haunt her, I made the mistake couple of weeks back of reading Queen of Sorrow, a AU fanfic where the Greil Mercenaries don't make it in time to save Lucia. Then it goes downhill from there. I'm replaying RD right now and I can't get this horrible fanfic out of my head. (Don't get me wrong, I found it well written. But the ending is just so demoralizing)

HOLY SHIT why did i read this

Demoralizing is quite the understatement

Chrom feels like an amalgamation of a lot of previous lords, but devoid/stripped of what makes a good number of the previous ones interesting

[NinjaMonkey]

Well Chrom doesn't really have an excuse for not knowing who Validar is.

Seeing as Validar was the boss of Chapter 6, it's presumable that Chrom thought that he was dead...

Edited December 30, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[Roy: Marquess of Pherae]

Speaking of Emmeryn, she's an even worse ruler than Chrom, worst in the entire series by far.

She just keeps making one bad decision after another while it is always obvious that the decision is a terrible one.

Not really. Emmeryn did fall right into traps, but she did it on purpose. Everyone in the entire game excpet Gangrel and some of his followers seems moved by her actions and she becomes an icon of peace. She was a collected and peaceful ruler who attempted to do what was best for her people. After she dies, Chrom goes along causing ruckus all over the place, each fight leading to the whole continent in danger. Emmeryn wasn't a bad ruler. She was a good ruler and Chrom's actions are what screws up the game. That and the avatar's position.

[Skynstein]

Seeing as Validar was the boss of Chapter 6, it's presumable that Chrom thought that he was dead...

You're actually right, I address it in the other thread. Chrom knew Validar's appearance, but not his name, so he couldn't have guessed Validar was the new king of Plegia before he met him because Validar was dead for all intents and purposes.

Not really. Emmeryn did fall right into traps, but she did it on purpose. Everyone in the entire game excpet Gangrel and some of his followers seems moved by her actions and she becomes an icon of peace. She was a collected and peaceful ruler who attempted to do what was best for her people. After she dies, Chrom goes along causing ruckus all over the place, each fight leading to the whole continent in danger. Emmeryn wasn't a bad ruler. She was a good ruler and Chrom's actions are what screws up the game. That and the avatar's position.

Don't waste your time arguing with him. It'll fall on deaf ears.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Malebolganone

[Loki Laufeyson]

Oh dont mind me, just here for the show.

Bad Plot Writing and FE13 seem to be like, synonymous with each other.

[RJWalker]

Don't waste your time arguing with him. It'll fall on deaf ears.

I don't appreciate that at all. Try debating instead of attacking me. Oh wait, you can't!

Emmeryn is a terrible leader. Even if she does what she does on purpose, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a terrible decision to back to the capital when it's an obvious trap.

Imagine if Marth went back to Altea instead of escaping to Talys. "Oh no! My people NEED me! I better go back and get myself captured and executed. Yeah, that'll show them!"

No, instead, we see him hurting over the decision to leave, cursing himself about his helplessness and inability to save his people at present. The dialogue we get at the end of Prologue 4 is some of the best in the series and I'll take any reason to show it again.

Jagen:

Look, sire. See how Altea shrinks on the horizon...

Marth:

..aven...

Jagen:

I beg your pardon?

Marth:

I am a craven. Powerless to save my sister, to staunch my kingdom's wounds; to ease my people's fears...

Jagen:

This...was your only recourse, sire. But surely, one day, you will be able to set things right...

Marth:

"Surely"? Why do words of such conviction smack so much of uncertainty when spoken? Not surely, Jagen. Assuredly. Gra will pay for their acts. Today, though, allow me to wallow in this pain, to feel every awful twist of it. I never want to forget.

Jagen:

Sire...

Marth:

I will return, Altea! Your prince will return to you one day!

We get some great character development, something we never get with Emmeryn. Instead, we get:

Emmeryn: I should never have left. If it's discovered I'm away when this news comes to light... The people could panic. Riot. More Ylisseans could needlessly die. Here, Chrom. I entrust this to you.

[...]

Emmeryn: ...... I love you, Chrom. Both you and Lissa are my everything. As for the peace I seek... You cannot see who it is for. I have to go. I'm sorry—I truly am. Let us embrace again in Ylisstol when you arrive with Feroxi reinforcements. I know you will come.

She's obviously planning to sacrfice herself but the thing is, she doesn't need to. Perhaps if she had been alive, she could have advised Chrom better. But now he's free to keep messing up while the characters and the game continue to praise his mistakes as GOOD things while asking the player to blindly ignore his obvious mistakes.

The sad part is that people are quick to say that FE11 had a terrible story but the its story is SO much better than that of FE13.

So again, how about you debate me instead of insulting me because that's your only way of saving face?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Sunwoo]

Emmeryn's scenes with Chrom and Lissa, along with her devotion to peace, can be emotionally powerful to a lot of players. Especially the first time around. Except when you actually play the game enough to really start paying attention to the story, you see problems with it. Emmeryn's dedication to peace falls short, compared to what we see from other characters from past FEs.

Eirika from FE8 is a pacifist who hates war and makes bad decisions a lot in the game, but the people around her (Seth) were able to keep her from going through with those dumb decisions. Elincia from FE9 and FE10 grows a lot throughout her games. In FE10, she starts as a weak queen who is too concerned about hurting the people to properly quash a rebellion, and nearly loses someone very close to her, which is at point she wises up. Emmeryn's decisions cost her her life, yes, but sometimes I feel that FE13 doesn't really hit you with the CONSEQUENCES of the characters' actions. It's like, "yeah, this bad decision is either totally not going to bite our characters in the butts, or we're not going to discuss the negative consequences and act like this is a good thing!" Again, the examples of Chrom not paying attention to Plegia for two years and stuff. All the leaders in this game are woefully inept.

[Skynstein]

I don't appreciate that at all. Try debating instead of attacking me. Oh wait, you can't!

Emmeryn is a terrible leader. Even if she does what she does on purpose, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a terrible decision to back to the capital when it's an obvious trap.

Imagine if Marth went back to Altea instead of escaping to Talys. "Oh no! My people NEED me! I better go back and get myself captured and executed. Yeah, that'll show them!"

No, instead, we see him hurting over the decision to leave, cursing himself about his helplessness and inability to save his people at present. The dialogue we get at the end of Prologue 4 is some of the best in the series and I'll take any reason to show it again.

We get some great character development, something we never get with Emmeryn. Instead, we get:

She's obviously planning to sacrfice herself but the thing is, she doesn't need to. Perhaps if she had been alive, she could have advised Chrom better. But now he's free to keep messing up while the characters and the game continue to praise his mistakes as GOOD things while asking the player to blindly ignore his obvious mistakes.

The sad part is that people are quick to say that FE11 had a terrible story but the its story is SO much better than that of FE13.

So again, how about you debate me instead of insulting me because that's your only way of saving face?

I've tried debating with you. But it's like hitting a brick wall. You decided you hate the game, you won't consider you might be wrong. So I don't waste my time with you anymore.

BTW I don't see anything special about that Shadow Dragon dialogue you posted. At least, not anything so wonderful that it trumps Awakening by miles. Jagen speaks some flowery words and Marth immediately changes his resolve? Without some "meat" (storytelling, description) to back it up, it doesn't sound powerful at all.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Malebolganone

[Sunwoo]

I've tried debating with you. But it's like hitting a brick wall. You decided you hate the game, you won't consider you might be wrong. So I don't waste my time with you anymore.

He's free to have his opinion, though, and it makes you look like a jerk when you tell another poster "don't waste your time with this guy, he's a lost cause". That was not cool.

[Samias]

Maybe the rock that hit Emmeryn in the head when she was a kid affected her decision making skills. She was so obsessed with trying to appease her people for her father's action that she walks into a trap on purpose because she's TOO soft. I don't think it's poor characterization to, for once, have a queen who is too headstrong and foolish to back off and heads off to her death. I think it's the post reaction of OTHER characters that's poorly handled. Once Emmeryn dies, that's when the story goes out the window as Chrom bungles his way through Valm and back to Plegia. If only the team had better writers to make the arc switch more organic and reprimand Chrom and crew for their actions, since Chrom is clearly his father's son.

[Sunwoo]

Maybe the rock that hit Emmeryn in the head when she was a kid affected her decision making skills. She was so obsessed with trying to appease her people for her father's action that she walks into a trap on purpose because she's TOO soft. I don't think it's poor characterization to, for once, have a queen who is too headstrong and foolish to back off and heads off to her death. I think it's the post reaction of OTHER characters that's poorly handled. Once Emmeryn dies, that's when the story goes out the window as Chrom bungles his way through Valm and back to Plegia. If only the team had better writers to make the arc switch more organic and reprimand Chrom and crew for their actions, since Chrom is clearly his father's son.

... This is actually a good point. I mean, I can understand Emmeryn being a weak queen who is too obsessed with atoning for the things the former exalt did that she cannot make difficult decisions. Not quite sure I liked Chrom constantly praising his sister's sacrifice, like it was an inevitable thing, or how everyone else around him is dumb. Again, that's just poor writing and pacing.

EDIT: To be clear, if Emmeryn's characterization was meant to be a weak Exalt who made poor decisions because she was too soft, that's all right. But she appears to be pushed as a GOOD leader.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Sangyul

[RJWalker]

I've tried debating with you. But it's like hitting a brick wall. You decided you hate the game, you won't consider you might be wrong. So I don't waste my time with you anymore.

BTW I don't see anything special about that Shadow Dragon dialogue you posted. At least, not anything so wonderful that it trumps Awakening by miles. Jagen speaks some flowery words and Marth immediately changes his resolve? Without some "meat" (storytelling, description) to back it up, it doesn't sound powerful at all.

I said that you can't debate so you resort to insults to save face.

You didn't disappoint. *slow clap*

And it's not just one piece of dialogue. Though that one piece of dialogue does give Marth more character development than anyone in FE13. If you think Marth changed his resolve their, you probably didn't even understand. It's not even that deep. But you still got it wrong.

If only the team had better writers to make the arc switch more organic and reprimand Chrom and crew for their actions, since Chrom is clearly his father's son.

They almost got close with Walhart comparing the similarities between him and Chrom but no, that conversion only serves to make people point out how different they are. Sad that they didn't do anything interesting with that.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Skynstein]

He's free to have his opinion, though, and it makes you look like a jerk when you tell another poster "don't waste your time with this guy, he's a lost cause". That was not cool.

And he isn't a jerk when he comes to every Awakening thread where a point of the game is criticized and distills his hate for the game? I've done that in a Pokémon forum where I criticised Hoenn every chance I had, and was called out for it. It really is annoying to other people, so I don't bother doing that anymore.

I said that you can't debate so you resort to insults to save face.

You didn't disappoint. *slow clap*

And it's not just one piece of dialogue. Though that one piece of dialogue does give Marth more character development than anyone in FE13. If you think Marth changed his resolve their, you probably didn't even understand. It's not even that deep. But you still got it wrong.

They almost got close with Walhart comparing the similarities between him and Chrom but no, that conversion only serves to make people point out how different they are. Sad that they didn't do anything interesting with that.

You seem to be very easily offended if you think I "insulted" you, lol. I could insult you in a very appropriate way, but I won't.

Are you really going to argue that Marth gets more development than anyone in FE13 just in that scene, when Chrom himself gets the same development than him throughout the story or maybe even more, turning from a rabid hound into an exalt that tries to understand and follow his sister's words? Tharja, the character you have such a mortal hate towards that you mercilessly murder her every time you play the game, was only recruited because Chrom decided to give her his trust. He would not have done that if he didn't try to listen to Emmeryn. Of course, you might say, "but he went medieval on Gangrel! and Walhart!". Well Gangrel was a psychopath. And Walhart couldn't be reasoned with either.

The only similarity between Chrom and Walhart is that both are lords of war. Walhart had napoleonic desires of uniting people, but it would be by force, and in a very dictatorial way. Chrom is a goody two-shoes compared to him, wanting freedom for all the realms, feeling guilt over his father's charges against Plegia, and being more mellow after Emmeryn's death in an attempt to preserve her legacy. They are, indeed, different. If you think otherwise, you didn't understand what's supposed to be a very simple story.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Malebolganone

[Czar_Yoshi]

The sad part is that people are quick to say that FE11 had a terrible story but the its story is SO much better than that of FE13.

That's probably because FE1/11 was an NES game, which suffered from hardware limitations in terms of text. Nintendo saw and righted the error by adding Mystery of the Emblem to explain a lot of stuff (eg. Manaketes, which Malledus randomly brings up for all of one chapter before proclaiming that Medeus is evil and must die). Unfortunately, Mystery was never localized and to people who just played the game, the story wasn't very impressive. It's a decent one to be sure, but SD alone doesn't represent the whole thing.

Now, uh, would you two mind not fighting?

[RJWalker]

How does Chrom learn from his sister's words? Perhaps she was trying to teach him that an entire country is more important than a single person but right till the end, Chrom is willing to damn that whole world so that his secret fuckbuddy doesn't have to sacrifice themself.

Doesn't look like he learned anything.

[Skynstein]

How does Chrom learn from his sister's words? Perhaps she was trying to teach him that an entire country is more important than a single person but right till the end, Chrom is willing to damn that whole world so that his secret fuckbuddy doesn't have to sacrifice themself.

Doesn't look like he learned anything.

Well he wanted the solution that would be sort of a middleground. Killing Grima with the Falchion wouldn't rid them of the threat forever, but they could still stop people from trying to summon him. It shouldn't be that hard when Grima stayed dormant for thousands of years. And Avatar lives.

It doesn't make a difference either way because the Avatar survives the sacrifice, which is a nice idea when you first play the game (hey I survive in the end! how cool) but definitely weakens the choices you have as the player. This is not the first time I've seen something like this happen in a story, but when it does, there's a feeling that the sacrifice was for nothing.

Personally I felt that the choices in the game should've made more difference.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Branching text (and paths) are indeed something Awakening could have sorely used. Every FE from 5 to 8 had branching paths (quite large ones in FE8's case) and they were quite nice, both from a strategic standpoint (In theory, Thracia's waves of enemies vs. trolley traps) and from a storyline perspective (Eirika/Ephraim routes). IS also has some good past examples of putting branching text to use, but FE13 lacks even a rudimentary haggling conversation.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[ClassyWolf]

Well he wanted the solution that would be sort of a middleground. Killing Grima with the Falchion wouldn't rid them of the threat forever, but they could still stop people from trying to summon him. It shouldn't be that hard when Grima stayed dormant for thousands of years. And Avatar lives.

And how exactly would they stop people from trying to bring back Grima?

It doesn't make a difference either way because the Avatar survives the sacrifice, which is a nice idea when you first play the game (hey I survive in the end! how cool) but definitely weakens the choices you have as the player. This is not the first time I've seen something like this happen in a story, but when it does, there's a feeling that the sacrifice was for nothing.

Personally I felt that the choices in the game should've made more difference.

Aah the illusion of choice, how I hate that, it's not like they haven't done branching paths before (fe8), but giving you a choice and the saying "whatever you do wont matter because the exact same thing will happen anyway".

So yeah, I agree that if you show on the surface to the player that you give them a choice...just give them a choice.