Top 25 Fire Emblem characters in 0% growths of ALL TIME (not really) countdown

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

IIRC the caps of Sothe make him somewhat unusable in late game

That and most players still tend to review end of game more in relation to early game. The idea of FE7 Marcus being overpowered is something that is only known to some places such as gamefaqs(where Marcus is a religion) and SF. Most casuals still saw him as a garbage

[dondon151]

sothe with growths is actually almost as bad as sothe without growths

[arvilino]

Even outside of 0% growths, I see people who ackwoledge that not all Jagens are bad saying he sucks. Aren't his growths good enough to carry him to end game?

He's essential in Part 1. But like all the Dawn Brigade he just doesn't get enough EXP to compete and in Sothe's case even if he had as many level ups as possible his caps and notably weapon type are so restrictive that even at level 20 Whisper he's not actually much better than some characters in tier 2 classes.

Edited February 11, 2014 by arvilino

[Refa]

FE10 is the only game thus far to feature a three-tier class system, and IS had to make some adjustments to the Fire Emblem formula in order to make that system work - to mixed success. The rapid increase in enemy quality over the course of FE10 presents an interesting case. While it is true that all units in 0% growths tend to peak after joining and fall off as the game progresses, nowhere is this more evident than in FE10, where a unit who steamrolls enemies in his or her joining map will conversely be steamrolled about 10 chapters later. (One should take note that for the games in which stat inflation is the greatest, i.e., FE12 and FE13, 0% runs are almost certainly an impossibility.)

Actually, FE2 had a three tier system as well (even discounting the villagers, which were like a tier 0). More of an FYI since you haven't played FE2, but yeah.

[Jotari]

The real thing that mystifies me about Sothe is why his luck cap as a Whisper is lower than when he's a Rogue.

[Junkhead]

Unfortunately, Sothe is like a child actor - peaks early, falls quickly - which is why he can't be closer to the top.

lawl

and people still hate him due to anti-jeigan bias (or due to being miccy's canon husband)

Cool entry. He's very useful in every playthrough.

Yeah, Sothe is great.

I used to hate him.

[dondon151]

19. Saleh, from FE8

If one played FE7 before FE8, his first reaction when Saleh joins the army was probably along the lines of "this guy is exactly like Pent!" Saleh joins at around the same time in the game, is in the same class, and fulfills much of the same roles as Pent, from FE7.

But Saleh is not exactly like Pent. In a vacuum comparison, Saleh is actually quite a bit worse. He's what would result if one literally reduced all of Pent's base stats by 3 points (except for mag, which is only reduced by 2 points) and downgraded that base A staff rank to a C (and added a B light rank, but no one cares about that). There's no doubt that if Saleh and Pent switched games, Saleh would be significantly worse and Pent would be significantly better.

That actually hints at why Saleh is higher on this list despite being objectively worse. Pent's problems are that Warp isn't all that good in FE7 and he has a lot of good combat units to compete with. Saleh doesn't have those problems - he manages to benefit from being in a game where Warp availability is substantial and options for player units are worse on the whole. In economic speak, Saleh's marginal benefit to the army in FE8 is greater than Pent's marginal benefit to the army in FE7.

Of course, there is a certain way to use Saleh. He has to spend a lot of effort raising his staff rank from C to A between the time he joins and chapter 16. FE8 fortunately doesn't have terrible staff WEXP gain like in FE6, but regardless, Saleh has to be spamming a staff just about whenever possible - opportunities for staff use are actually somewhat diminished in 0% growths because units can no longer be healed for HP gain on level up. Still, in the time since I first completed FE8 0%, players like General Horace have pushed the boundaries of FE8 LTC and have shown that Saleh can reach A rank staves in time for endgame despite the ever tighter turn constraints. The effort is well worth it, because even if an 8-tile staff range doesn't seem that great, there are no better alternatives.

Saleh also needs to be careful around physical enemies. 30 HP, 8 def actually renders him 2HKO'd by some stronger unpromoted enemy types; even Iron Lance gargoyles in chapter 12 3HKO the solemn sage. Often the player simply has to bite the bullet and count on Saleh dodging enemies, since his 1-2 range offense is too powerful and consistent to be restricted by death chances. As a point of comparison, Saleh @ Thunder has about the same atk and AS as Gerik @ Hand Axe, except Saleh has 26 more hit and targets lower enemy resistance stats. When the going gets tough, Saleh can even fall back on Excalibur for a blistering 34 atk with no net AS loss.

Someone playing efficient FE8 0% would almost certainly agonize over how many Barrier or Hammerne uses can be wasted on building staff rank, or how to most consistently get Saleh to emerge from a swarm of enemies alive. Indeed, we all kind of wish that Saleh were Pent instead, but the important thing is that Saleh gives the player more than enough to work with.

Note on Ephraim route: Saleh is significantly worse here because he joins in chapter 15 instead of chapter 12. He forfeits his most productive period of combat and the chance to reach A staves before endgame.

Edited February 12, 2014 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Don't forget that in all-out-no-turning-back LTC, Artur is the preferred staff user to Saleh due to availability and shaving off turns making staffspam very restrained. Could be wrong though - Horace and Hawk King are the champions of absolute lowest turn counts in Sacred Stones at the moment, and I think Horace talked about having Saleh catch up to A staves later while Artur is just there to warpskip the less mag-demanding chapters (even if the staff rank/ mag requirements for chapter 16's 1-turn aren't easy to meet at all), lacking magic because of the Bishop caps.

[General Horace]

In absolute LTC Artur is needed for warp in the earlier chapter like Espinosa said, but he pretty much needs to proc magic every level, which honestly is pretty ridiculous. Saleh is still required for endgame warping because of Artur's magic cap though, and his combat is much better and he's generally a more reliable option.

Regardless that's with growths. Saleh would still be pretty invaluable in warping in FE8 0% I imagine, although you needed him for a lot of combat in your run, but that could probably be worked around. The only run I've done in 0% I had L'ARACHEL as my warper and clearly she's top tier.

Edited February 12, 2014 by General Horace

[Tamanoir]

While in normal gameplay, Pent is better than Saleh.

Pent have few competitions as a mage, and even less as an Anima Magic user. Erk is shaky as best, and on average actually worse than Pent, except Speed and HP (and Pent have more CON anyway). His only benefits is early join time.

Nino... will never be used on efficient playthrough, or even by most casual.
Priscilla is the main competition, but she his far more frail, and Pent is a more potent unit overall.

That's why even with anti-prepromobias, he was never considered a bad unit. Physic and Force access for start is also always a good thing.)

Saleh have to compete with Artur and Lute as possible Sages (Yeah, Lute is no doubt better as a MageKnight, but that's actually a positive point for her. Not sure wether Artur would be better as a Bishop.

A pretty interresting list, really.

[Florete]

Kind of funny how that works. In almost any way of looking at it, Pent is better than Saleh: his stats are better, his weapon ranks are better, he's in a (slightly) tougher game...yet when it comes to 0% growths, which is a situation you would think Pent should be shining even more for all those reasons, the actual context is such that Saleh comes out on top.

[Elieson]

But Saleh is in a game with comparably weaker units over the long haul, combined with a stronger warp.

[Mekkah]

@up

No dancers? O RLY?

Good point, I was gonna include them but idk which ones of them will be grouped together. Definitely think Lara and Lalum/Elphin will make it. Not all that sure on Tethys and Ninian actually, I remember dondon said he wasn't too impressed with Ninian at some point, though he was comparing her to FE10 Herons. I really don't know enough about FE8 LTCing to make a good call here...if you put a gun to my head I'd say they're all gonna make it in some shape or form. Probably at the cost of Othin, maybe Ike/Wendell/Eyvel?

[Espinosa]

dondon said Othin isn't a walloper =(

[dondon151]

orsin sucks

but not as much as felgus

get at me mekkah

[dondon151]

18. Ike, from FE10

In contrast to his FE9 incarnation, Ike is large and in charge (quite literally, judging by the size of his arms) from the get-go in FE10, and IS made damn sure that his stats reflect that. At 44 HP, 24 str, 23 spd, and 21 def, Ike has the best all-around stats of any unit in the Greil Mercenaries, or for that matter, any beorc unit that joins afterwards for a long time. For someone who joins at the beginning of part 3, Ike's long-term usefulness is quite unlike the average FE10 unit. On top of his killer bases, exclusive access to Ragnell and the flexibility granted by FE10's skill system give Ike the tools needed to stay viable well into his part 4 maps.

Technically, one can't beat the game without Ike - he has to defeat the Black Knight mano-a-mano in 4-E-2 and land the final blow against Ashera in 4-E-5 - but it would be kind of disingenuous to base Ike's rank solely on interactive cutscenes. So we'll ignore that for now.

A cursory examination of FE10 enemy stats reveals that enemies in chapter 3-11 aren't terribly stronger than they are in chapter 3-P. For example, a halberdier in 3-P has 36 HP, 20 AS, and 18 def, while his 3-11 compatriot has 41 HP, 22 AS, and 22 def. Halberdiers are one of the bulkier enemy types, so Ike can ORKO the majority of weaker enemies between 3-P and 3-11 given a Speedwings (keep in mind that he needs one to reach the 27 AS necessary to defeat the Black Knight quickly) and a strong enough sword: the Ettard, a forged Steel Sword, or the Ragnell.

What Ike sorely wishes he had more of is movement. Over the years, Ike has been progressively relinquishing tier position in the FE10 HM tier list to units with similar availability but better movement, such as Haar and Titania. Haar and Titania are not the faces of complete domination in 0% growths like they are in normal play, but they still make Ike a less relevant unit in the middle part 3 maps. By the time they start waning, Ulki and Janaff join in chapter 3-7 to help pick up the slack. And when part 4 rolls along, Nailah decides that she hasn't yet had her fill of beorc meat.

Ike really finds his niche, though, in strong, no-strings-attached 2-range combat. The drawback of relying on so many laguz later in the game for combat roles is that they require many more turns to rout enemies with 2-range weapons. The route splits in part 4 exacerbate this problem by spreading the player's viable combat units thin. Ike manages to patch up a lot of these holes in his part 4 maps, even though the part 4 enemies are a step above the part 3 chumps. All he needs are Resolve, Savior, a support bot with Daunt, and 2 Angelic Robes in order to kick ass... as long as he has 31 or less HP.

That all seems like a lot, doesn't it? But for those of you who have played maps like chapter 4-4, imagine how much worse that would be if you had no 1-2 range. Thank goodness for Ike!

Edited February 13, 2014 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

BK is 4-E-2, dragons are 4-E-3...interesting to see who will make the rest of the list.

[chococoke]

So excited for Marcus to make an appearance. Fuq Seth

[dondon151]

17. Jagen, from FE11

Let me introduce you to Jagen. The archetype to begin all archetypes. The veteran to outgrizzle all veterans. The Silver Lance to... something about Silver Lances. And so on. (He has spikes on his pauldrons!)

Statistically speaking, Jagen kind of blows. His personal bases are comparable to those of Abel, so the only statistical difference between Jagen and his much more junior subordinates is the difference between paladin bases and cavalier bases. That's not very much; paladins have, notably, 4 HP, 2 str, 1 spd, 1 def, 6 res, and 1 mov over their unpromoted versions (though anyone who has experience with 0% playthroughs should know that these small differences ultimately matter). However, any player who attempts to use Abel, Cain, or any non-Hardin cavalier as a Jagen surrogate in 0% will be thoroughly disappointed.

Jagen's base weapon rank is the one trait responsible for this gulf in performance (prepromoted status in class set A means a lot, too). As the sole potential user of his starting Silver Lance, Jagen has the highest per-hit damage output in the army until Barst gets the Devil Axe in chapter 3 and combines that with the highest mobility in the army until the first Master Seal becomes available in chapter 10. He also happens to be one of the surprisingly few Ridersbane users in the early to midgame, because playable FE11 cavaliers have remarkably nonexistent base lance weapon ranks.

Really, that's about it: Jagen can use a Silver Lance starting in chapter 1 and a forged Ridersbane starting in chapter 5. He can do it with 10 movement and with the ability to fly starting as soon as chapter 4. By the time he can no longer OHKO cavalry with a +4 MT Ridersbane forge, the player doesn't need much more than a couple of warpers and bosskillers to close out the rest of the game.

Oh, and it's nearly impossible to finish chapter 1 without Jagen. I'm not weighting that very heavily, though.

Edited February 14, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

please dondon its possible to solo chapter 1 with doga

it only takes 70 turns or so

but honestly im glad Jeigan made the list though.

[Xator Nova]

I really wished there was some mention of FE1!Jagen.

Then I remembered you hadn't played FE1. Or you haven't tried it in 0% growths at the very least.

Also, Jagen > Ike is cool.

and people still hate him for some reason

Edited February 14, 2014 by Xator Nova

[Garland Chaos]

Will Dagda(Or Dagdad, as I like to call him) from FE5 be on this list at one point?

[X-Naut]

Dagda got an honorable mention as #26 after Fin, so no.

[Garland Chaos]

Dagda got an honorable mention as #26 after Fin, so no.

Oh. I see.

[Florete]

I really wished there was some mention of FE1!Jagen.

Then I remembered you hadn't played FE1. Or you haven't tried it in 0% growths at the very least.

Also, Jagen > Ike is cool.

and people still hate him for some reason

Who the hell hates Jagen?