Why do people overrate Hector as a unit?

[Tamanoir]

i don't know when ninian would ever be considered better at holding a choke than oswin, even against magic since magic users aren't ever doubling oswin unless he's underlevelled or facing the Cog of Destiny Valks, the latter of which should never happen

i mean he'll have at least 20 hp on ninian if you're using Oswin on a regular basis, and his resistance upon promotion isn't actually that bad, and there's no contest when facing physical enemies, there's always the chance that ninian gets hit twice by two 40% hits and curls up and dies

defence is a pretty big stat early on in hhm too, it separates someone like Dorcas with a few Lyn mode levels from Oswin.

as for Hector himself, he's debateably your second best unit in the hardest part of the game, and he's not that much of a pain like Eliwood or Roy having to lug around unpromoted since he's still more than durable enough unpromoted to take some abuse. The worst part about him really is his enormous con and low movement upon promotion, but you have a team of wrecking balls by that point, so his contributions are largely irrelevant, but he can still easily hold his own if need be.

Well, I took Denning's chapter for a clear reason. Oswin takes a Hit, heard a Tink, becomes purple because of the poison.

Ninian/Nils will never ever be hit on the first place, and s/he won't get doubled on the first place (Once again, this doesn't count efficiency. In this case Ninian had be abused to be nearly level 20)

I guess Rebecca, Guy, or any other Avo Tank would works better for comparison. Avo tank are just better at taking hit later than normal Tanks. Tink Can also tend to also have really low Res, which means not being able to avoid those annoying status staff (lke this Berserk Staff Druid in Final).

But to answer the topic's question...

If Hector is overrated, it's not because of its stats (who really cared about that when they obtained the game for the first time. And the method used to determine "good"characters was entirely different anyway, what with Marcus being considered utter garbage).

No, it's because he's a pretty fine character and is goddamn cool.

Eliwood is your typical hero,,and is... pretty boring actually.

Lyn is fine, but she lacks relevance.

He's reckless, hot-blooded, and not above cold blooded violence (in its very first appearance).

Wait a minute...

Where do I have seen this before ?

Oh.. right !

That's it ! Hector is an American role model !

Edited February 6, 2014 by Totally Radical Judge

[Shadow Mir]

Well, I took Denning's chapter for a clear reason. Oswin takes a Hit, heard a Tink, becomes purple because of the poison.

Ninian/Nils will never ever be hit on the first place, and s/he won't get doubled on the first place (Once again, this doesn't count efficiency. In this case Ninian had be abused to be nearly level 20)

I guess Rebecca, Guy, or any other Avo Tank would works better for comparison. Def is still useless on late game. It is extremely usefull on early to mid game, but for the really last parts of the game, it's not that usefull.

But to answer the topic's question... If Hector is overrated, it's not because of its stats (who really cared about that when they obtained the game for the first stats. And our method of calculating have completely changed anyway).

No, it's because he's a pretty fine character and is goddamn cool.

Eliwood isyour typical hero,,and is... pretty boring actually.

Lyn is fine, but she lacks relevance.

He's reckless, hot-blooded, and not above cold blooded violence (in its very first appearance).

Wait a minute...

...

That's it ! Hector is a Monkeyfighting American role model !

Boo hoo boo, Oswin got poisoned. My response to that is "Whatever, it ain't as if 4 rounds of poison damage will amount to anything meaningful in the face of Oswin's massive HP".

Bold: That alone damages your argument. And again, Ninian's not usable there (and Nils isn't, for that matter, IIRC).

[Junkhead]

With A Florina, Sol Katti, and 26 Skl, Lyn is seeing 29 crit against the thing, which is ~50% to crit on at least one attack when doubling. It's not reliable to count on by any means, but she can potentially do more than Hector or Eliwood are ever able to. It's already been mentioned, but Eliwood even faces problems potentially being doubled by the dragon if he's a bit speed screwed. And I haven't done calculations for an average, but I've also experienced Hector missing the dragon. I'd rather get 14 damage than whiff and do nothing...

It's not entirely about the weapon. Promotion is good for new weapons, stat boosts, movement boost, and uncapped level. Only one of those is irrelevant for Hector, and another he doesn't even get.

And ugh, how do things like this always come down to a final chapter evaluation? We're talking about a single enemy here, it's not that big of a deal. Sure, it is the toughest enemy in the game, but none of them are even the best at fighting it. Even without a crit Luna!Athos + Nils are taking out half its health in one turn. Put a crit in and the thing is gone before a Lord could even run up to it. Hell, if you saved a Speedwing or Body Ring for Athos, he'll double and you don't even need a crit <_<. (That sounds weird, though. Someone else check to make sure I calculated that right, because I don't remember it being that simple)

Anyway...Out of all the things my opinions have changed on over the years, miraculously, Lyn has stayed in my mind as the most useful Lord of the three. Maybe it's the way I play, maybe I favor her and don't even realize it because I've done it for so long, but that's just how it turns out. I do always play LHM, where she'll get to ~8-10 and receive the Energy Drop (Robe goes to Florina), but I think that's justifiable enough (I'll completely agree that Lyn without LHM training is bad). She gets A Florina support for +3 atk and +15 crit, which is justifiable outside of max efficiency because it's super fast (41 turns from nothing to A) and Florina is a good unit who benefits plenty from it as well. And then she has those 45 uses of the Mani Katti which tend to be pretty good at slaying anything, especially those Knights and Cavaliers (this is how I always kill Uhai without relying on 60-70 hit from others).

Compare it to Hector, whose only real advantage is his raw durability. Yes, it is substantially better and leaves him at little risk of dying after a few maps of leveling, but before long I always see Lyn (and most units, to be honest) dodging very reliably anyway. And I've always got at least one dedicated healer on the team, two when Pent arrives, so even if an unlucky hit strikes I won't be in hot water. Hector's offense tends to be rough, with a hard time doubling and, early on, a hard time even hitting enemies that aren't wielding Lances (which does end up being most of the enemies in the game). Access to 1-2 range is his win here, but it's not really enough when, just as he starts to really get going, he level caps and slowly gets worse until he can finally see a promotion, but still has a hard time reaching enemies due to his 5 move and high Con. (This game doesn't exactly have an extraordinary amount of ranged enemies anyway outside the maps with a majority of magic using enemies like CoD [not Call of Duty] and the right side of CB)

Personally, I'm just going to chalk it up to being the way I play. This isn't a Sothe case where a unit that is obviously great is bagged on by people who don't know better; I can see where the criticism is coming from. I do still think Hector tends to be overrated as a unit, though. I don't think he's bad by any means, but he's not particularly great.

Is your Lyndis really able to dodge things not-Axe users? And I am not talking about hits in the mid 50s, at best...like, something actually reliable against them.

Noone beats Marcus and Hector is definitely better than Raven considering he gets some pretty easy chapters to train up (13x and 15) and be a powerhouse, Raven doesn't have that opportunity until like 25.

Why compare him to Lords from different games entirely...

I don't think Hector is better than Raven because Raven can turn out to be a 1RKO machine. He actually 1RKO's right off the bat, thanks to good Str/Spd combo. I think you may be able to get by his durability issues with an Angelic Robe or Dracoshield. Also consider the fact that he gains access upon promotion, which is always great when you are able to use Hand Axes. Hector is not a powerhouse, he'll never actually 1RKO unless it's a 1HKO by Wolf Beil, which only has limited uses and may actually run out quite fast in the early chapters (Ch.14, I'm looking at you).

The reason I am comparing him to Lords in the other games is not to put him down. I am aware he is still a good character in your team, but by the hype that I think he's gotten, I don't think he really lives up to it.

[Tamanoir]

Boo hoo boo, Oswin got poisoned. My response to that is "Whatever, it ain't as if 4 rounds of poison damage will amount to anything meaningful in the face of Oswin's massive HP".

Bold: That alone damages your argument. And again, Ninian's not usable there (and Nils isn't, for that matter, IIRC).

But your Avo Tank won't even be poisoned on the first place. No Disadvantage > Weak Disadvantage.

Unless you want to train your healer, of course.

Quite a long time I played the game, and I never pretended to be anything else than a casual. And replaces Nils/Ninian by Guy, Lyn, Florina, Rebecca and the results willbe the same. Rebecca in particular have such an amazing Avo she will never be hit (Less than 100% Display hit against the Dragon is impressive, even if she'll be one shoted).

Still, he apparently isn't that great on efficiency (what with his 5 move on promotion), and in Casual he isn't that great anyways.

He's the only lords who mention Arena, but he's doing a pretty poor performance here and Arena Abuse is his greatest demise (Arena Abuse greatly emphasises Speed)...

Quite ironic, I'd say.

[chococoke]

I only argued for 7-9 level ups on Lyn, actually. I mean, I've exited LHM with her as high as level 17, but I'm definitely not going to say that is a common case.

Raven is a monster, but Guy? Not quite. An LHM trained Lyn with the Energy Ring (since you don't seem to disagree with that) is going to be completely better offensively and stay that way due to superior growths.

Guy actually has a better speed growth than her. That coupled with the fact that he can promote much earlier than her make his offense very comparable to hers.

Lyn is certainly one of the more viable candidates for the Energy Ring, but I'd personally rather give it to a unit like Florina (or whichever cav I decide to promote in LM) rather than a unit I feel is somewhat redundant

[Refa]

Well, if you're promoting Sain then it's a waste, Kent would definitely appreciate it though.

[Florete]

Guy actually has a better speed growth than her. That coupled with the fact that he can promote much earlier than her make his offense very comparable to hers.

Lyn is certainly one of the more viable candidates for the Energy Ring, but I'd personally rather give it to a unit like Florina (or whichever cav I decide to promote in LM) rather than a unit I feel is somewhat redundant

That would only matter if Lyn ever had trouble doubling anything. What really matters is the Str difference, Lyn's access to the LHM Energy Ring, and a quick +atk support with Florina (in my post I only mentioned superior growths, but you're right in that that isn't quite the case and there's more to it). Earlier promotion is a fair point, but don't forget Lyn's Bow access.

I'll agree that Lyn is not the only candidate for the Ring by any means, but in my experience, Florina only wants it if Lyn is not in play (and therefore there is no support between the two) anyway, because she should have enough power with Lances, natural Str, and the support, and there's no way Sain needs it. Kent, though, is a fair choice, and maybe also Erk. However, the choices are so limited I really don't believe it can be ruled out for her, which is why I always bring it up.

[chococoke]

That would only matter if Lyn ever had trouble doubling anything. What really matters is the Str difference, Lyn's access to the LHM Energy Ring, and a quick +atk support with Florina (in my post I only mentioned superior growths, but you're right in that that isn't quite the case and there's more to it). Earlier promotion is a fair point, but don't forget Lyn's Bow access.

I'll agree that Lyn is not the only candidate for the Ring by any means, but in my experience, Florina only wants it if Lyn is not in play (and therefore there is no support between the two) anyway, because she should have enough power with Lances, natural Str, and the support, and there's no way Sain needs it. Kent, though, is a fair choice, and maybe also Erk. However, the choices are so limited I really don't believe it can be ruled out for her, which is why I always bring it up.

I agree that it can't be ruled out for her. My original point was that Hector is a better unit than she is. While she does acquire bow access and solid promotional gains, she doesn't promote until late and, by that point, we've already had at least Raven bash things with his sword and promote.

Hector's niche is not replicated by any other units until much later in the game, and his usefulness doesn't start wavering until later on ( likewhen he caps his level.)

[Florete]

Another unit being better than Lyn doesn't make her worse than Hector.

What is this "niche" Hector fills? Bulk? Because Oswin and Marcus have that (and better), and I already went on about how powerful avoid is in this game.

[Refa]

Hector is one of your few units that doesn't die to a stiff breeze in early game. Even if you are using Marcus and Oswin (which you should be) chances are there's still more than enough that Hector needs to do. Lyn doesn't have any niche.

EDIT Also Marcus beats everyone, I wish people would stop comparing Hector to him because chances are he's also better than Lyn for whatever she's supposed to be doing for a long damn time too.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Refa

[Shadow Mir]

But your Avo Tank won't even be poisoned on the first place. No Disadvantage > Weak Disadvantage.

Unless you want to train your healer, of course.

Quite a long time I played the game, and I never pretended to be anything else than a casual. And replaces Nils/Ninian by Guy, Lyn, Florina, Rebecca and the results willbe the same. Rebecca in particular have such an amazing Avo she will never be hit (Less than 100% Display hit against the Dragon is impressive, even if she'll be one shoted).

Still, he apparently isn't that great on efficiency (what with his 5 move on promotion), and in Casual he isn't that great anyways.

He's the only lords who mention Arena, but he's doing a pretty poor performance here and Arena Abuse is his greatest demise (Arena Abuse greatly emphasises Speed)...

Quite ironic, I'd say.

What I see is you grasping at straws just to look like you have an argument - ffs, the riffraff with poison weapons ain't even worth mentioning because poison weapons are shit. I'd be much more worried about those with weapons with actual Mt than poison that probably won't even deal 10 damage over its duration. Also, Avoid tanks generally have trash for Con, limiting them in what they can use if they're to preserve their Avoid.

[Scarlet]

But your Avo Tank won't even be poisoned on the first place. No Disadvantage > Weak Disadvantage.

Your Avo tank will also invariably get screwed by the RNG at some point and take multiple hits to the face in a row, likely dying as a result of having no durability to speak of. (Unless you never expose them to a number of enemies that could potentially kill them, but that'd mean you... ...really can't expose them very much)

This will never happen to tanky people like Oswin, lolpoison be damned.

[Tamanoir]

What I see is you grasping at straws just to look like you have an argument - ffs, the riffraff with poison weapons ain't even worth mentioning because poison weapons are shit. I'd be much more worried about those with weapons with actual Mt than poison that probably won't even deal 10 damage over its duration. Also, Avoid tanks generally have trash for Con, limiting them in what they can use if they're to preserve their Avoid.

Well, outside of Florna (And maybe Nino...), Con is not so much of a Problem. Basically Irrelevant for Rebecca, slightly more important for Lyn, but at worst you could still use a body ring (And Lyn can also uses Bow. While hard to do, maxing her Bow Rank is actually a good idea).

Legault is probably the best Avo Tank, though not that great as a fighter.

Avo Tank are better than regular tanks in this game. That's just a fact.

Only relevant here because Hector tries to be a regular Physical tank in the game where this is the worst niche you could have.

Your Avo tank will also invariably get screwed by the RNG at some point and take multiple hits to the face in a row, likely dying as a result of having no durability to speak of. (Unless you never expose them to a number of enemies that could potentially kill them, but that'd mean you... ...really can't expose them very much)

This will never happen to tanky people like Oswin, lolpoison be damned.

Don't forget Avo Tank also have a generally high Res (Higher than Regular Physical attackers at least)

There main problem is their chance of being Str Screwed.

And, if it happens to also be a mage, nothing will resist them.

Priscilla can weep the floor with just a couple Thunders.

(And Pent, with or without Louise, have good enough stats for the role. Pent's Role is actually kinda mixed)

Oswin and Hector will be wiped completely by mages, and Long range magic are encountereed more often than Ballistas (ANd are better too). (And Oswin is anyway far better at this job than Hector, if only because of the earllier promotion).

Against a Mage, Lyn will fare far better than Hector.

And while they have Really high Defense, this is rarely even needed

Obviously the best is to be able to do both. that's why people like Farina actually.

So, back to the point :

- GBA FE are the worst kind of Game for Physical tanks (And I didn't even talked about the problem of High Con + Low Move which makes their Defence irrelevant if you're not turtling like crazy. I'm pretty sure they're even less usefull in efficiency plays)

- Oswin feels the niche actually better, because he have an earlier promotion, and better bases and growth.

Hector is stronger and faster, so he'll be doubled less(Though that's irrelevant for Physical opponents and won't save against mages anyway) (No mention than being able to destroy ennemies easier, is actually more a hindrance for the role)

And you should decides if the ennemies are weak or not. Because weak ennemies makes Physical tank even more irrelevant.

[Florete]

Hector is one of your few units that doesn't die to a stiff breeze in early game. Even if you are using Marcus and Oswin (which you should be) chances are there's still more than enough that Hector needs to do. Lyn doesn't have any niche.

EDIT Also Marcus beats everyone, I wish people would stop comparing Hector to him because chances are he's also better than Lyn for whatever she's supposed to be doing for a long damn time too.

I was responding to the idea that Hector fills this "niche." By definition, a niche is something you don't have/need much of or there would be no point in mentioning it. If two units fill this niche better, Hector's not really got much to say here. Lyn may not have a "niche," but you need multiple combatants, people to kill enemies, and Lyn can largely do this better than Hector.

In early game, Hector's better-than-average durability is a nice boon, for sure, but it just doesn't take long before it stops mattering a whole lot.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[SRC]

Eh, when the average enemy for the vast majority of the game is sort of beefy, uses lances (often javelins), and has mediocre speed, Hector naturally has a lot of things going for him over Lyn. Since actual enemies like heroes and valkyries (units she can finally take advantage of her speed and weapon type against) do not show up until very late in the game, I would certainly feel better having Hector on the field over Lyn for a significant portion of the game.

On the durability route, I'm kind of surprised Lyn's avoid is getting a lot of hype, haha. Don't get me wrong, it's pretty good, but it doesn't quite cut it against lances for quite a while. You're probably facing at least 45% hit rate or so against a lot of these lance dudes and Lyn's very low HP and def leave very little breathing room for unlucky RNs. Terrain helps her a whole lot, but with the option of a 1-2 range weapon, it's more situational than you would want it to be. Hector's defense allows him to basically go anywhere not involving a swarm of magic users, which is a sizable advantage over Lyn if you ask me.

Edited February 6, 2014 by SRC

[Radiant Dragon]

Never thought I'd see the day on SF where someone tries to argue that Ninian and Rebecca are better tanks than Oswin...

Overrated? Possibly. Having five move after promotion, shaky speed and accuracy against some enemies and a late promotion are all valid complaints. Hector's main draw seems to be his uniqueness - as a bulky, axe-using Lord, he made a lot of 'firsts' in the series.

Despite this, he's often one of the best non-Marcus units you have available until you start promoting people. He remains solid (not spectacular, but not bad) during the midgame chapters because there are plenty of enemies weighing themselves down with Steel weapons for him to ORKO and he's still one of your most durable units. Once he finally does promote he can quickly become a ORKOing machine that will never die, and can take the Boots to help his Mov issue.

Also, I don't buy the 'enemy accuracy sucks so much that avoid trumps defense' argument. Considering that units like Lyn and Guy face constant WTD they can not reliably dodge-tank as many enemies that Hector can simply brush off. Not even Florina or Rebecca or whatever can face an infinite number of rounds without going down.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Radiant Dragon

[Shadow Mir]

Well, outside of Florna (And maybe Nino...), Con is not so much of a Problem. Basically Irrelevant for Rebecca, slightly more important for Lyn, but at worst you could still use a body ring (And Lyn can also uses Bow. While hard to do, maxing her Bow Rank is actually a good idea).

Legault is probably the best Avo Tank, though not that great as a fighter.

Avo Tank are better than regular tanks in this game. That's just a fact.

Only relevant here because Hector tries to be a regular Physical tank in the game where this is the worst niche you could have.

Don't forget Avo Tank also have a generally high Res (Higher than Regular Physical attackers at least)

There main problem is their chance of being Str Screwed.

And, if it happens to also be a mage, nothing will resist them.

Priscilla can weep the floor with just a couple Thunders.

(And Pent, with or without Louise, have good enough stats for the role. Pent's Role is actually kinda mixed)

Oswin and Hector will be wiped completely by mages, and Long range magic are encountereed more often than Ballistas (ANd are better too). (And Oswin is anyway far better at this job than Hector, if only because of the earllier promotion).

Against a Mage, Lyn will fare far better than Hector.

And while they have Really high Defense, this is rarely even needed

Obviously the best is to be able to do both. that's why people like Farina actually.

So, back to the point :

- GBA FE are the worst kind of Game for Physical tanks (And I didn't even talked about the problem of High Con + Low Move which makes their Defence irrelevant if you're not turtling like crazy. I'm pretty sure they're even less usefull in efficiency plays)

- Oswin feels the niche actually better, because he have an earlier promotion, and better bases and growth.

Hector is stronger and faster, so he'll be doubled less(Though that's irrelevant for Physical opponents and won't save against mages anyway) (No mention than being able to destroy ennemies easier, is actually more a hindrance for the role)

And you should decides if the ennemies are weak or not. Because weak ennemies makes Physical tank even more irrelevant.

The other Pegasus knights aren't much better off - 5-6 AS loss with javelins is a lot... Also, lolnino. And GBA isn't exactly kind to avoid tanks, for your information.

That's a bad thing - what use is being an avoid tank if you can't deal enough damage to make your attacks meaningful???

I was responding to the idea that Hector fills this "niche." By definition, a niche is something you don't have/need much of or there would be no point in mentioning it. If two units fill this niche better, Hector's not really got much to say here. Lyn may not have a "niche," but you need multiple combatants, people to kill enemies, and Lyn can largely do this better than Hector.

In early game, Hector's better-than-average durability is a nice boon, for sure, but it just doesn't take long before it stops mattering a whole lot.

You gotta admit, though, Hector can get more exposure due to not having the durability of papier-mache.

Also, I find it funny that though this is about Hector being overrated as a unit, it's LYN being overrated here.

[Florete]

Also, I find it funny that though this is about Hector being overrated as a unit, it's LYN being overrated here.

Lyn is definitely not being overrated by the majority of people here. Like, come on. That is a ridiculous claim. And think about it: if one believes Hector to be overrated (as I do), it's not a stretch to think that Lyn is better than him. It's not like I'm saying Lyn is one of the best characters in the game, and I'm backing up my arguments. Don't start throwing strawmen at me.

We can theorycraft all day, but we'll never get anywhere. One side is saying all you need is avoid, the other is saying that's not enough; neither is really "proving" their point, and I don't think it's something that can be so easily proven anyway. That's why early on I decided to chalk it up to "the way I play." I simply don't rely on raw durability much because avoid works fine for me. I use terrain all the time, I take advantage of WTA whenever possible, I have healers for those unlucky moments, etc.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

Lyn is definitely not being overrated by the majority of people here. Like, come on. That is a ridiculous claim. And think about it: if one believes Hector to be overrated (as I do), it's not a stretch to think that Lyn is better than him. It's not like I'm saying Lyn is one of the best characters in the game, and I'm backing up my arguments. Don't start throwing strawmen at me.

We can theorycraft all day, but we'll never get anywhere. One side is saying all you need is avoid, the other is saying that's not enough; neither is really "proving" their point, and I don't think it's something that can be so easily proven anyway. That's why early on I decided to chalk it up to "the way I play." I simply don't rely on raw durability much because avoid works fine for me. I use terrain all the time, I take advantage of WTA whenever possible, I have healers for those unlucky moments, etc.

The thing is, though, I really have to wonder how good Lyn really is in a lance heavy game like this, especially after reading SRC and Radiant Dragon's arguments. I, too, don't buy the "enemy acc sucks so much avoid trumps defense" arguments being thrown around here - it just reeks of hyperbole imho.

[Scarlet]

Avo Tank are better than regular tanks in this game. That's just a fact.

Only relevant here because Hector tries to be a regular Physical tank in the game where this is the worst niche you could have.

In the midgame, yes, where your own units will be massively overleveled compared to the enemies (who wield impossibly shitty weapons to top it off).

Not so much later on.

Let's crunch some numbers, shall we?

Let's take a Lv20 Lyn and compare her to a bunch of HHM Chapter 24 (Linus) enemies.

On average, Lyn will have 20 speed and 15.45 luck at Lv20. Let's make that 15 luck so we get a nice round number: 55 Avo.

For reference, she will also have roughly 29 HP (29.3) and 6 defense (5.8).

Mercs: 21 L10 Mercs

17 have Steel Swords: 17-18 Atk, 99-103 Hit ---> Lyn faces 44 to 48 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd.

4 have Iron Swords: 14-15 Atk, 116-118 Hit ---> Lyn faces 61 to 63 Display Hit and is 4HKO'd.

Corsairs: 14 L10 Corsairs

Two have an Iron Axe: 19 Atk, 87-89 Hit ---> Lyn faces 17 to 19 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd.

Three have Hand Axes: 17-19 Atk, 72-76 Hit ---> Lyn faces 2 to 6 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd. (EDIT: I can't do math. Should be correct now.)

Five have Steel Axes: 21-23 Atk, 75-79 Hit ---> Lyn faces 5 to 9 Display Hit and is 2HKO'd. (EDIT: I can't do math. Should be correct now.)

Some wield other weapons, but there's not much difference. They really can't hit her.

Wyverns: 38 L10 Wyverns

Twenty-eight have Steel Lances: 23-24 Atk, 84-88 Hit ---> Lyn faces 44 to 48 Display Hit and is 2HKO'd.

Eight have a Javelin: 18-21 Atk, 79-81 Hit ---> Lyn faces 39 to 41 Display Hit and is 2-3HKO'd.

Eight have an Iron Lance: 19-21 Atk, 92-96 Hit ---> Lyn faces 52 to 56 Display Hit and is 2-3HKO'd.

She's pretty much invincible against axes, but against everything else? Not so much. Granted, terrain in this game is abundant and really overpowered. Parking her on a forest, for instance, adds 20 Avo on top of that, which causes her to face only 20ish to 40ish Display Hit even against accurate enemies or in WTD.

My point stands that these are not numbers you want to rely on for survival if just two or three hits will cause you to drop dead.

Don't forget Avo Tank also have a generally high Res (Higher than Regular Physical attackers at least)

Again, not really.

Staying with Lyn for this example, she has a 30% Res growth, which is decent, and a whopping +5 Res promotion gain - but she starts out at 0 base Res. At Lv20 unpromoted, she'll have 5.7 Res on average, which is laughably little.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Scarlet

[Shadow Mir]

*sees enemy stats* Huh. Also, we don't have enemy stats for 29 onward... Did they take care of that?

Also, @ Red Fox: I'll admit, I tend to use terrain if possible, but of course, you can't always do so (primarily in indoor maps, where pillars are scarce). It's cases like those where the durability of the likes of Lyn (or lack thereof) stands out the most.

[Shadow Mir]

*sees enemy stats* Huh. Also, we don't have enemy stats for 29 onward... Did they take care of that?

Also, @ Red Fox: I'll admit, I tend to use terrain if possible, but of course, you can't always do so (primarily in indoor maps, where pillars are scarce). It's cases like those where the durability of the likes of Lyn (or lack thereof) stands out the most.

[Junkhead]

Well, if you're promoting Sain then it's a waste, Kent would definitely appreciate it though.

Obviously...who the heck gives it to Sain. As if he didn't have enough Str to share already.

[chococoke]

Lyn is definitely not being overrated by the majority of people here. Like, come on. That is a ridiculous claim. And think about it: if one believes Hector to be overrated (as I do), it's not a stretch to think that Lyn is better than him. It's not like I'm saying Lyn is one of the best characters in the game, and I'm backing up my arguments. Don't start throwing strawmen at me.

We can theorycraft all day, but we'll never get anywhere. One side is saying all you need is avoid, the other is saying that's not enough; neither is really "proving" their point, and I don't think it's something that can be so easily proven anyway. That's why early on I decided to chalk it up to "the way I play." I simply don't rely on raw durability much because avoid works fine for me. I use terrain all the time, I take advantage of WTA whenever possible, I have healers for those unlucky moments, etc.

Maybe niche wasn't a great word to use. Yes, other characters share Hector's bulk. Hector also gets insane mileage out of the Wolf Beil in terms of typically having WTA when used against vulnerable enemies. He can OHKO units like nomads, at a part of the game where arrows are actually something to be afraid of. Well, for units that aren't Oswin, Marcus, or mah boy Hector.

I was also attempting to say that Lyn is completely replaceable as a combat unit. Her saving graces (forced deployment and Mani Katti, plus that support does help) really don't outweigh the fact that a unit like Raven, who is also sword-locked, is better defensively and can promote earlier, essentially achieving what Lyn can, and then beyond that when hand axes become available. Plus, Hector has a much easier time in general finding enemies that he has WTA against. I'm fairly certain there are many more lances than axes, especially in the midgame.

No, Hector isn't your only durable unit. But what other axe users are even viable to use in the early-mid game who aren't named Marcus? Each one of them requires babying to a certain extent (plus, just LOL if you're using Bartre or Dorcas.) Hector kicks ass from the moment he arrives. There are a ridiculous amount of enemies who are weak to his Wolf Beil, and with a secret book tossed his way (since we're talking resource use here...) his hit will be that much more manageable early on. If we're feeling really lucky, we already swiped the Silver Axe from ch. 15 to allow him to OHKO weaker enemy types (plus, again, who is going to use it?)

This is just how I feel though, of course. I think Hector is a great unit, certainly better than Lyn. There's no way that Lyn is overrated on this board though, most people hate on her pretty hardcore.

[Florete]

I was also attempting to say that Lyn is completely replaceable as a combat unit. Her saving graces (forced deployment and Mani Katti, plus that support does help) really don't outweigh the fact that a unit like Raven, who is also sword-locked, is better defensively and can promote earlier, essentially achieving what Lyn can, and then beyond that when hand axes become available. Plus, Hector has a much easier time in general finding enemies that he has WTA against. I'm fairly certain there are many more lances than axes, especially in the midgame.

I'm not about to try saying Lyn > Raven, but I did make the point about needing multiple combat units; even if Lyn is the 10th best combat unit in the game, that still makes her better than the 11th.

No, Hector isn't your only durable unit. But what other axe users are even viable to use in the early-mid game who aren't named Marcus? Each one of them requires babying to a certain extent (plus, just LOL if you're using Bartre or Dorcas.) Hector kicks ass from the moment he arrives. There are a ridiculous amount of enemies who are weak to his Wolf Beil, and with a secret book tossed his way (since we're talking resource use here...) his hit will be that much more manageable early on. If we're feeling really lucky, we already swiped the Silver Axe from ch. 15 to allow him to OHKO weaker enemy types (plus, again, who is going to use it?)

The Secret Book is fine, but it might take some time before he can wield that Silver Axe.

This is just how I feel though, of course. I think Hector is a great unit, certainly better than Lyn. There's no way that Lyn is overrated on this board though, most people hate on her pretty hardcore.

Yeah, I know I'm alone in my Lyn hyping, and I do understand why people like Hector more. I'm not one to think I know better than everyone else, but I'm still going to explain my side of things. If people can understand where I come from, then that's enough; I don't need them to agree with me.