Why do people overrate Hector as a unit?

[Ronman5]

Hmmm I find eliwood to be the weakest but since this is hector

Hector is like a knight with only axes and he has no disadvantage to armor slayers making him better in that department also he has a good speed stat and is more viable if u give him the boots then he's like a super general on promo

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not about to try saying Lyn > Raven, but I did make the point about needing multiple combat units; even if Lyn is the 10th best combat unit in the game, that still makes her better than the 11th.

The Secret Book is fine, but it might take some time before he can wield that Silver Axe.

Yeah, I know I'm alone in my Lyn hyping, and I do understand why people like Hector more. I'm not one to think I know better than everyone else, but I'm still going to explain my side of things. If people can understand where I come from, then that's enough; I don't need them to agree with me.

Hmmm. I'll say, I don't dislike Lyn, but I just find Hector more reliable in most situations, considering he doesn't need to rely on the RNG to survive. That being said, I can see where you're coming from, I just thought the avoid hype was being blown out of proportion.

[Radiant Dragon]

Lyn vs. Hector can be a difficult comparison as long as we're counting Lyn mode (I'd say Hector wins pretty easily without).

First, there's the availability difference. Lyn has twelve chapters before Hector joins, while Hector has six chapters before she rejoins. Hector's chapters are more difficult than Lyn's, but they're not twice as hard (we have Marcus, after all).

As for supports, Hector can take a fast Eliwood support for full defense and avoid (not exactly what Hector wants, but he does also get a little attack and critical from it. Eliwood benefits quite a bit, though). Not quite as good as LynxFlorina's full attack, hit and critical (it is worth noting that they don't get any avoid from their support, interestingly), but it serves to reinforce my next point:

Lyn and Hector fill different roles. Hector excels at fighting the most common lance using enemies and can generally be counted on to not die, while Lyn is virtually invincible against axe users and also does better than him against sword users. Reavers complicate this otherwise simple generalization, but you get my point. Lyn generally does more damage to difficult enemies Hector can't double like Heroes and Valkyries, but Hector generally wins against Wyvern Lords (even if Lyn can 2HKO with a Steel Bow, Hector is better at taking them out on the enemy phase), Paladins and Generals.

To me, it seems pretty subjective at this point which one you think is better. I personally think Hector edges out a win because I really dislike the early chapters of HHM (too many terrible units), but that's just my opinion.

[Loki Laufeyson]

lol Lyn..

Hector is a pretty cool guy who doesnt afraid of anything. He sits in the field like a thwomp waiting for yon Mario. He waits...and then...SMAASH! Wolf Beil up in an enemy's dome! The only thing that makes Hector go "eeeee!" is mages. I like him. I like his character and i like him as a unit. Fuck the police. Hes my favorite lord in the series.

[Tamanoir]

In the midgame, yes, where your own units will be massively overleveled compared to the enemies (who wield impossibly shitty weapons to top it off).

Not so much later on.

Let's crunch some numbers, shall we?

Let's take a Lv20 Lyn and compare her to a bunch of HHM Chapter 24 (Linus) enemies.

On average, Lyn will have 20 speed and 15.45 luck at Lv20. Let's make that 15 luck so we get a nice round number: 55 Avo.

For reference, she will also have roughly 29 HP (29.3) and 6 defense (5.8).

Mercs: 21 L10 Mercs

17 have Steel Swords: 17-18 Atk, 99-103 Hit ---> Lyn faces 44 to 48 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd.

4 have Iron Swords: 14-15 Atk, 116-118 Hit ---> Lyn faces 61 to 63 Display Hit and is 4HKO'd.

Corsairs: 14 L10 Corsairs

Two have an Iron Axe: 19 Atk, 87-89 Hit ---> Lyn faces 17 to 19 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd.

Three have Hand Axes: 17-19 Atk, 72-76 Hit ---> Lyn faces 2 to 6 Display Hit and is 3HKO'd. (EDIT: I can't do math. Should be correct now.)

Five have Steel Axes: 21-23 Atk, 75-79 Hit ---> Lyn faces 5 to 9 Display Hit and is 2HKO'd. (EDIT: I can't do math. Should be correct now.)

Some wield other weapons, but there's not much difference. They really can't hit her.

Wyverns: 38 L10 Wyverns

Twenty-eight have Steel Lances: 23-24 Atk, 84-88 Hit ---> Lyn faces 44 to 48 Display Hit and is 2HKO'd.

Eight have a Javelin: 18-21 Atk, 79-81 Hit ---> Lyn faces 39 to 41 Display Hit and is 2-3HKO'd.

Eight have an Iron Lance: 19-21 Atk, 92-96 Hit ---> Lyn faces 52 to 56 Display Hit and is 2-3HKO'd.

She's pretty much invincible against axes, but against everything else? Not so much. Granted, terrain in this game is abundant and really overpowered. Parking her on a forest, for instance, adds 20 Avo on top of that, which causes her to face only 20ish to 40ish Display Hit even against accurate enemies or in WTD.

My point stands that these are not numbers you want to rely on for survival if just two or three hits will cause you to drop dead.

Again, not really.

Staying with Lyn for this example, she has a 30% Res growth, which is decent, and a whopping +5 Res promotion gain - but she starts out at 0 base Res. At Lv20 unpromoted, she'll have 5.7 Res on average, which is laughably little.

I may have overdone it, but it's still pretty great. Those damn mercs expected she's pretty reliable. She would definiely needs a Lancereaver if she wants to Avo tank properly, but that's still quite good. While this isn't FE6 (The only game where skills actually does matters), or FE8 (Where ennemies are really bad), Avo tanking is still pretty reliable. It's not as hyped as I made it;, I'll admit (I always Arena Abused on my playthrough, so obviously Avo Tanking was the best thing to do), the ones who said Lyn and others Avo tanks have papier-maché defense are clearly wrong too.

She'll promote and gain access to bowsjust two chapter after, and will be able to negate Wyvern Knight's Threat. (And you will have at least a regular Staff users at this point)

I remember Nino having 56-58 display hit against a Javelin Wearing paladin in 28x, and I know by experience that it's entirely possible to have Nino reach Level 20 in this chaper (it's a pain, and it's absolutely not efficient). The only ones who could one-shoted her ( She had to wears a Fire or Thunder, because Inferno weighted her to much. And she was 2HKO'd) was the Wyvern Lord (Wyvern Knights were also a real pain), and maybe that Bolting wearing Sage.

Ennemies aren't that dangerous then (I'll really would like more accurate information about that, because mt memory here is really fuzzy).

Actually, Nino is greatly helped by physical tanks, in this chapter, even if this is an argument nobody will ever use...

Anyway... My point was that Avo Tanking is a pretty reliable method, and Lyn, while not the absolute best, is pretty good at it.

And it seems the most underrated unts here is Eliwood. Absolutely noone wants to defend it (Hector with Eli's promo would be the absolute best unit...).

Hector is incredibly usefull early game, up to mid game, but his usefullness dimnish once everyone else start promoting, and you get better Axe users (Well... Mainly Raven, but the Paladin can be quite good either. Depending of how lucky you get, Lowen can be a pretty good example of Moble Oswin).

...But honnestly, none of the Lords will be the best fighting units of the game.

Hector have a better use for a third to a halfof the game. Lyn have more availability, better promotion (and she can actually immediately contribute as soon as she promotes).

So, I guess the question is if it's better to always contributes evenly, or to be really good, but just for a limited part of the game.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Avo is broken if you play super snails mode and stack support bonus and their ridiculous free +15 - 30 AVO

[Junkhead]

How does Lyndis' Avo become reliable, RFoF? I myself am pretty fine with assuming LHM base, but most other tier people seem to leave it behind and skip straight to HHM.

[Scarlet]

[Too much stuff to quote]

Sure, Avo tanking is reliable enough in normal play if you accept the fact that every once in a while, the RNG will screw you over if you don't play at a snail's pace. I can agree with that. It's just not "better" than actual physical tankiness like Oswin's.

As for Eliwood, personally, I like him, actually. With supports involved, he can become ridiculously tanky in both ways.

However, while Hector (shaky speed and accuracy issues early on) and Lyn (shaky strength and bad HP/defense) have clear weaknesses, they also have clear strengths. Eliwoods weakness is that he does not have any strengths. His stat spread is too balanced for his own good, so he just can't really catch up unless you baby him early on and allow him to get a level lead on his enemies. He can be pretty decent if you allow him to, but you just gotta admit that out of the three lords, he's the worst if you don't favor him.

[dondon151]

this topic smells like 2009.

[Hawkeye]

I like how this has turned into a Hector vs Lyn debate. It's a more interesting topic to discuss anyway.

For my part, I'd say Hector is the better lord. First, weapon type: It's pretty much a fact that axes are overall the best weapon type, whereas swords and bows are the two worst (of physical weapons anyway). Hector has reliable 1-2 range from hand axes, which are available all game, whereas Lyn is stuck at 1 range for most of the game and even once she promotes, she then has to choose to use either 1 range or 2 range, both of which have their drawbacks.

In terms of prfs, I'd say they're about tied. The Wolf Beil is definitely better against units that it has an effective bonus on (knights and cavs), whereas the Mani Katti is a better general use weapon (while also winning against mounted sword or bow users, who are significantly less common than the lance-wielding variety).

For how they deal against the different average enemies, I'd say Hector wins again. Against axe users, Lyn is functionally invincible, whereas Hector is facing middling hit. Lyn is also more likely to get the 0RKO due to always doubling. Against sword users, Lyn is facing middling hit (higher avo than hector, but these enemies are more accurate), whereas Hector is facing high hit, with low hit of his own. Against soldiers Lyn is facing decent hit, whereas Hector is facing slightly lower hit. They will both always double in return, with Hector definitely getting the 0RKO and Lyn probably getting the 0RKO. Against other lance users (cavs and knights) the hit is about the same, however this time Lyn is not getting the 0RKO without the Mani Katti or maybe a lancereaver, whereas Hector is in the same boat for cavs but will still get the 0RKO on knights. Against bow users they're both facing decent hit, but Lyn has to equip a bow to counter them, thus opening herself up to being freely hit on EP. Hector can equip a hand axe and avoids this issue. With mages Lyn is never able to counterattack, but faces lower hitrates.

Looking at this it seems like Lyn has a clear offensive advantage, but there are a few things to note:

First of all, the enemies that Lyn wins against are less common than the enemies Hector wins against. Hector also has an EP advantage due to his 1-2 range allowing him to take on archers and mages without compromising his ability to handle 1 range enemies. The second thing to note is the durability difference. Against anything other than axe users, Lyn is facing an average of 40-50 hit. While this is better than Hector, it's certainly not enough to make her invincible. With her terrible defense and HP, she's getting 3HKO'd on average, meaning 6 enemies are taking her down on average, but considering lance users are more common and stronger, she can be taken down by as few as 2 wyverns given a bad roll. Meanwhile Hector is getting 5-6HKO'd on average, facing higher hitrates. The difference here is that he's not relying on the RNG; even if it rolls all 0's it's still taking the same amount of enemies to defeat him. Given that he has WTA on the most common enemies and he takes pitiful damage from swords, he can easily expect to take on 8 enemies on average, and is not nearly as prone to getting RNG screwed.
Of course they both have their own unique factors as well. Lyn has Lyn mode, where she will most likely be your second-best combat unit behind your cav of choice. This gives her plenty of time to train and she will probably exit somewhere around lvl8. She benefits the mode as much as the mode benefits her, as she is a very effective boss-killer, really only being less effective than your cav on chapters 2, 7x, and 10. She is also a contender for both of the boosters. The ring is between her, Erk, and Florina, with Matthew and Kent being occasional possibilities as well. The robe is between her, Florina, and maybe Nils or Matthew. She probably won't get both, but it's highly likely that she will get at least one. The thing is, Lyn mode is not always assumed, and all these advantages go down the drain if we choose to just start fresh at Hector mode, which many people do.

Meanwhile, Hector has 6 chapters before Lyn returns, during which Hector is one of your top 3 offensive and defensive units. As far as boosters go during that time, there's a skill book that might as well go to him if you're not selling it, and... a goddess icon? Really nothing important to fought over. The other thing about Hector is that he's needed to seize for the rest of the game. This isn't really an advantage or disadvantage. If you're playing casually then there's no rush to get him to the throne and if you're playing efficiently he's being ferried. Obviously he's not getting experience if he's getting ferried, but if we're playing efficiently then Lyn isn't seeing too much combat either. His high con and low move don't matter as much either, because if we're playing efficiently we'll make use of the few units who can ferry him, and if we're not, the low move doesn't hurt him. The only time this would matter would be if we were hurrying to the throne but not ferrying him, and why would we do that?
Overall they're both good units, but I'd say Hector has the advantages where it matters most, so he's the better unit.
tl;dr Lyn needs forged silvers to do damage and Hector doesn't have the con to use axes. Use Eliwood.

[Florete]

How does Lyndis' Avo become reliable, RFoF? I myself am pretty fine with assuming LHM base, but most other tier people seem to leave it behind and skip straight to HHM.

I already agreed that Lyn without LHM use is, indeed, pretty bad.

this topic smells like 2009.

Your post smells like spam. I really don't like that smell.

[Elieson]

Rfof, how do you handle the excellent combat of MK!Lyn, when there's only one (compared to multiple WBs and Rapiers)? It seems like she has unrealistically high crit expectations from you.

[SB.]

Oswin and Hector will be wiped completely by mages, and Long range magic are encountereed more often than Ballistas (ANd are better too). (And Oswin is anyway far better at this job than Hector, if only because of the earllier promotion).

Against a Mage, Lyn will fare far better than Hector.

And while they have Really high Defense, this is rarely even needed

hector has the same base and 5% less growth, but actually has 1-2 range and more str so he might not need to take a counter every once in a while, making him a much better mage killer

[Florete]

Rfof, how do you handle the excellent combat of MK!Lyn, when there's only one (compared to multiple WBs and Rapiers)? It seems like she has unrealistically high crit expectations from you.

45 uses with the occasional first-strike crit comes out to more than it may seem if you use it against the right enemies. It's mostly only necessary to get her going initially and take out some bulkier guys later on. Once her support gets going I usually don't have to rely on the Mani Katti much. I sometimes finish the game with uses left, even, though the amount is less than 10.

Besides, even if you do get an extra Wolf Biel/Rapier, it comes pretty late and isn't nearly as useful by that point when you've been able to buy Silvers and your units have leveled far past many of the enemies.

[Tamanoir]

Since when are we using "snails" instead of "turtles" (Yeah, I know turtles

If we assume Arena abusing... Well, first all Lords sucks, but amongst the Lord Lyn is the one who does the best job here. In casual gameplay, it's not impossible to have a Lv 20 Lyn as soon as chapter 17.

(And with Arena Abusing Avo Tank is always the superior option).

Well, anyway, a LV 20 units is a dead weight anyway, because it'll never participate in any battle (Because of that sweet, sweet EXP). In my kind of play overleveled units won't participate either (or at minimum), but I guess I'm in the minority who tries to level up everyone equally here (and conserve Special Weapons uses too)...

So any lord will have absolutely zero use, except seizing, and otherwise, would have to take those ballistas and Bolting hits (and Lyn is anyway better at this...) as soon as he reach 20.

I think Lyn X Eliwwod is a better comparison, but have nohing to do with the topic.

Most of what I'm saying is linked to the way I play, which is absoultely noy efficient, and may differs for most, I'll admit.

Also why does people refers to stats boosters as if they're anything relevant. They're generally not needed, and everyone can uses them, so deciding who uses it is pure favoritism (except in extreme cases like Skill Book for Dart (and all of them to Gonzales in FE6))

hector has the same base and 5% less growth, but actually has 1-2 range and more str so he might not need to take a counter every once in a while, making him a much better mage killer

Oswin also have 1-2 range so I don't see what you mean with that. He has twice as much option as Hector on Promotion anyway.

When I compare Hector to Oswin, I always takes the earlier promotion into account. With far earlier promotion its offense will eventuallly become better (except for WB related cases, but this is a limited weapon).

Hector is generally better offensively (though earlier promo jkind of mitigate this), but Oswin is arguably better defensively (on Def he's clearly better, and they're pretty even on Res).

None of them should ever be used reallistically as a mage killer anyway.

[Refa]

-Assuming arena abusing is dumb because it's not necessary.

-Being better than everyone else at Lv20 doesn't make your unit dead weight. You're not playing for exp, you're playing to beat the game.

-Statboosters are relevant (well, some of them), this is where I begin to question if you know what you're talking about at all.

-Except the Skill Book, that is, it's better used for the 4K it brings selling it.

[Elieson]

Hector has enough skill to matter. A secret Book yields +4 Accuracy and +1 Crit. How necessary is that for anyone? Even dart isn't going to rely on that tiny of a boost.

[Florete]

As far as other playable characters are concerned, I don't think there's any real competition for the Secret Book, but you do get it at the beginning when you have no money to speak of and it's worth 4k, so selling it is probably better.

[Tamanoir]

-Assuming arena abusing is dumb because it's not necessary.

-Being better than everyone else at Lv20 doesn't make your unit dead weight. You're not playing for exp, you're playing to beat the game.

-Statboosters are relevant (well, some of them), this is where I begin to question if you know what you're talking about at all.

-Except the Skill Book, that is, it's better used for the 4K it brings selling it.

Bold : You're only wondering about that now ?

I was mentioning Arena Abuse because it was mentioned people doesn't play LHM, which is IMO far dumber.

But statboosters are also unnecessary to win the game. It's easier to use than Arena Abuse, but completely unneeded as well (except maybe an Angelic Robe for Athos in HHM, in order to beat that Dragon).

And if I said that about peope mentionning stats boosters in characters comparison. Every mention of using stats boster here is, by definition, completely biased. If I give a stats booster to a unit, I favorised it on detriment of another, and there is generally no good answer them (except if you use a Body Ring on Oswin, because even Hector would benefit for that boost for the Armads).

If you says : "X can use X statbooster", all I hear is : "X is my favorite unit here, so I will gave it anything s/he needs to be the best.

While being unbiased is really hard, or even impossible on a debate, we generally try not to be unfairly biased.

So, whatever their relevance is in game, in a debate they should never be used as argument.

[dondon151]

Your post smells like spam. I really don't like that smell.

it's not spam. i succinctly communicated the entirety of my opinion on this subject in one sentence. i challenge you to do better.

the arguments in this thread are bad. the assumptions in this thread are bad. there has been no conclusion on this subject despite huge walls of text (even though the consensus on FE7 units has been fairly static recently) and then the subject shifted to lyn for some reason. i walk into this thread and see the same arguments from 2009, the same assumptions from 2009, and the same irrelevant points being made from 2009. it's like a time machine.

Edited February 7, 2014 by dondon151

[Florete]

Your stated opinion is irrelevant to the subject at hand and you are not an authority on the subject. Spam? Maybe not (maybe), all things considered. But useless nonetheless, because you're not actually talking about the subject at hand, just getting on a high horse and talking down.

[Snaper_Joe]

I've never really seen anyone overrate Hector as a unit. Generally people seem to like him due to his incredibly manly personality and the fact that he's the red herring of the lords. When you compare him to Lyn and Eliwood in terms of manliness.

1.Hector easily looks the most badass, especially once he promotes.

2. Armads is the same size as Hector and he swings it like it's made of paper.

3. Hector grows a beard.....Eliwood does not.

If we go under the assumption that people prefer to use characters that erupt with pure manliness.(I do.) Then Hector is simply favored more than Lyn and Eliwood. Just my theory on the matter though.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Gman

[dondon151]

Your stated opinion is irrelevant to the subject at hand and you are not an authority on the subject.

oh yeah? what about everyone else's opinion? as far as fire emblem goes, i'm certainly more of an authority on the subject that pretty much anyone else that posted in this thread. this "opinions are opinions aka bullshit" card ain't gonna fly.

[Chiki]

I'm pretty sure having some records in Fire Emblem games makes you an informal authority.

Hector is kinda crap

[Radiant Dragon]

oh yeah? what about everyone else's opinion? as far as fire emblem goes, i'm certainly more of an authority on the subject that pretty much anyone else that posted in this thread. this "opinions are opinions aka bullshit" card ain't gonna fly.

You didn't speak about the subject at all, though. Simply made a condescending comment about how we've 'been there, done that'.