Why do people overrate Hector as a unit?

[Integrity]

;~;

i thought that was obvious enough hyperbole

[Mekkah]

Hector is the best unit ever, without question. You tried to argue utility and effectiveness vs things, but in the end, Hector's superior stats and supports make him win. Hector's better in many ways. Proabably all of the reason's have been said already so I shall shut my mouth up now. And Hector is also 10000000000% vital to finishing the game since only he can take out the Fire Dragon. You're going to stand alone on this, dondon. Nobody in hell would agree with you. Hector's clearly superior in battle in terms of hit and avoid. Lyn has only 0.3 more DEF, less RES by a lot, and less avoid and LUK, and even less HP. Hector's substantially more durable.

Hector's faster. Hector's far more durable. Hector's more accurate. Hector can use the Wolf Beil and the amazing Armads. Hector's support options are vastly superior to Lyn's. Hector's 100% needed to complete the game, Lyn isn't.

I'm not going to start debating about this. However, I would say one thing to you Narga. You can call dondon arrogant all you want, and it's true, he's an arrogant jerk in debates half the time, but to be quite honest, you can't really claim the moral high ground, going by the tone you're taking in this. I'd watch your tongue if I were you.

Just some friendly advice .

More evidence can be found here:

http://w11.zetaboards.com/Fusion/topic/389292/1/

Edited February 9, 2014 by Mekkah

[dondon151]

Ike's support options are vastly superior to Lyn's.

you just got exposed :O

[Mekkah]

well Ike's options are vastly better too i mean where is Lyn going to find an Earth support?

[eclipse]

well Ike's options are vastly better too i mean where is Lyn going to find an Earth support?

But Ike's Earth bonuses don't even EXIST in FE7 (let alone his character).

I also have no idea what that blurb is about, short of a good giggle.

[Florete]

As fun as things are, I'll need to brutally murder this topic if it doesn't get back on track immediately. No more 2009, no more Ike, more Hector and why he is/isn't overrated as a unit.

[Dwarfishh]

In all honesty, the other axe users in this game are fairly fragile, aside from those who gain the weapon upon promotion, as they're probably not getting to high in that weapon rank. The fighters have high HP, but they take so much damage, and are fairly slow. Dart is quicker, but his defenses are both pretty poor. Hawkeye has horrible supports, and Geitz is okay at best. Hector is the only one who is able to 'hold the line' reliably, in my experience.

[dondon151]

uhhh hawkeye is way bulkier than hector.

[Tamanoir]

In all honesty, the other axe users in this game are fairly fragile, aside from those who gain the weapon upon promotion, as they're probably not getting to high in that weapon rank. The fighters have high HP, but they take so much damage, and are fairly slow. Dart is quicker, but his defenses are both pretty poor. Hawkeye has horrible supports, and Geitz is okay at best. Hector is the only one who is able to 'hold the line' reliably, in my experience.

Well, Marcus woud be the only one who could compete almost equally, but... Well, it's Marcus.

And he doesn't have the Wolf Beil anyway

Lowen can be extremely bulky, but as much as I like it, I'll admit even a horse doesn't makes him win over Hector.

Oswin would be his main counter, but he only gain Axe after pomo.

Raven is great, but join far later and only gain Axe after promotion.

High Rank isn't really needed because all you need is a Hand Axe (Well, and maybe a Killer Axe later...)

So, unless you want to abuse Marcus, Hector is your only reliable Axe user (And Boss Killer, which is the most imprtant).

So, it depends how much you favor early game...

[General Horace]

Harken is also another durable axe user. There's no real shortage of them in the game. Their durability is further increased by the amount of lances in the game too.

Edited February 10, 2014 by General Horace

[Loki Laufeyson]

;~;

i thought that was obvious enough hyperbole

Oh...sorry. /patpat

Hector is the best unit ever, without question. You tried to argue utility and effectiveness vs things, but in the end, Hector's superior stats and supports make him win. Hector's better in many ways. Proabably all of the reason's have been said already so I shall shut my mouth up now. And Hector is also 10000000000% vital to finishing the game since only he can take out the Fire Dragon. You're going to stand alone on this, dondon. Nobody in hell would agree with you. Hector's clearly superior in battle in terms of hit and avoid. Lyn has only 0.3 more DEF, less RES by a lot, and less avoid and LUK, and even less HP. Hector's substantially more durable.

Hector's faster. Hector's far more durable. Hector's more accurate. Hector can use the Wolf Beil and the amazing Armads. Hector's support options are vastly superior to Lyn's. Hector's 100% needed to complete the game, Lyn isn't.

I'm not going to start debating about this. However, I would say one thing to you Narga. You can call dondon arrogant all you want, and it's true, he's an arrogant jerk in debates half the time, but to be quite honest, you can't really claim the moral high ground, going by the tone you're taking in this. I'd watch your tongue if I were you.

Just some friendly advice .

More evidence can be found here:

http://w11.zetaboards.com/Fusion/topic/389292/1/

Oh...gods...the NOSTALGIA!!!!

*hands Mekkah a free interwebz*

Anyway, I thought it was pretty clear that Hector was the best axe user in the game not named Marcus. Mostly due to being around for like, ever, and having hella strength. Raven is pretty great for axing things in the face but Hector has a very significant lead on him. Bartre has serious skill issues and lolDorcas. So Marcus and Hector are the most reliable axers in the game for a very long time. /shrug

[Elieson]

A strong and capable lord that wields an optimal weapon type. I don't think he's overrated. I think he's properly rated

[Junkhead]

I've never really seen anyone overrate Hector as a unit. Generally people seem to like him due to his incredibly manly personality and the fact that he's the red herring of the lords. When you compare him to Lyn and Eliwood in terms of manliness.

1.Hector easily looks the most badass, especially once he promotes.

2. Armads is the same size as Hector and he swings it like it's made of paper.

3. Hector grows a beard.....Eliwood does not.

If we go under the assumption that people prefer to use characters that erupt with pure manliness.(I do.) Then Hector is simply favored more than Lyn and Eliwood. Just my theory on the matter though.

Being reckless isn't being "manly". But I do think that's a fine quality that makes him different and more likeable, among the Lords.

Hector has great strength and defense, as well as Hand Axe access and the Wolf Beil, which makes him monstrous in the earlygame, especially Chapter 14, and not too shabby later on.

In efficient play, he's usable, but he won't carry the team by any means. However, most of the people who put Hector on a pedestal are the filthy casuals (like me) who don't mind taking a few extra turns to let the world's manliest man see action.

I don't think he's monstrous...a monstrous unit would be able to 1RKO Like Marcus.

Hector with a horsie might've been the best unit in the game, behind Marcus.

For some, that includes discussing the merits of fictional video game characters on an online message board.

You make it sound so cheap. )0 I think this is plenty fun and much more productive.

uhhh hawkeye is way bulkier than hector.

Hawkeye is so bulky and great. I haven't played FE7 in a while, does he have use much beyond his joining chapter? I remember him being rather short on Spd.

A strong and capable lord that wields an optimal weapon type. I don't think he's overrated. I think he's properly rated

I am not talking about tier-people here. I felt the rest of the people who played the game overrated him as a unit. He isn't that good, you know.

Better than the other Lords doesn't mean fantastic. Then again, if it is the same people who think Oswin is fantastic...

[Radiant Dragon]

Hawkeye is so bulky and great. I haven't played FE7 in a while, does he have use much beyond his joining chapter? I remember him being rather short on Spd.

Hawkeye's speed isn't that big of a deal since enemies are so slow. He's not doubling Myrmidons and Mercenaries, but it's really not until Heroes and Valkyries start showing up that he starts having a lot of problems. He doubles most of the midgame chapters just fine. Then the Brave Axe helps lategame (and you get it the chapter before you get Hawkeye).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Hawkeye on a Peak lols at Vaida

10/10 contribution right there

[Dwarfishh]

uhhh hawkeye is way bulkier than hector.

But he gets doubled so much more than hector, and his defence is weaker overall. He does have better resistance though...

[dondon151]

But he gets doubled so much more than hector, and his defence is weaker overall. He does have better resistance though...

hector averages only 0.65 more spd at 20/-- than hawkeye does at base. hawkeye is faster in all but the slowest playstyles. hawkeye's 50/14/10 defensive bases are also much better than hector's 36.1/17.5/4.75 defenses at 20/--.

Edited February 12, 2014 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

I want to play 0% growths just to use Hulkeye

[Dwarfishh]

hector averages only 0.65 more spd at 20/-- than hawkeye does at base. hawkeye is faster in all but the slowest playstyles. hawkeye's 50/14/10 defensive bases are also much better than hector's 36.1/17.5/4.75 defenses at 20/--.

I did say in my first post that this was in my general experience, as I know that's not fully representative. I'm aware that his speed isn't much worse, but a 10% growth difference is quite a bit in this game, especially for these units. And since I'm not talking magic tanking, as that's just not a good idea with pretty much any physical unit.The hp difference would be made up in levels to come, as Hectors growth is about 40% higher, IIRC. He should be getting HP pretty much every level, and it'll soon get to the point where the defence advantage is preferable to the HP.

[dondon151]

I did say in my first post that this was in my general experience, as I know that's not fully representative.

i take this as an admission that you don't know what you're talking about. if you're going to post something that can't be substantiated, you're better off not posting it at all.

I'm aware that his speed isn't much worse, but a 10% growth difference is quite a bit in this game, especially for these units.

no, it isn't. the comparison assumes that both units are or will be promoted (since hector can't come close to hawkeye's stats unless he is promoted). promoted units do not level up quickly.

And since I'm not talking magic tanking, as that's just not a good idea with pretty much any physical unit.

that's all the better for hawkeye, who eats magic for breakfast! you just conceded that he can do something nontrivial that no other physical units can do.

The hp difference would be made up in levels to come, as Hectors growth is about 40% higher, IIRC. He should be getting HP pretty much every level, and it'll soon get to the point where the defence advantage is preferable to the HP.

hector doesn't promote until chapter 30. there are 5 chapters left in the game, 1 of which doesn't really matter because it's a defense map. there are 9 chapters before chapter 30 where hawkeye exists and is doing much better than hector. the point is that there's not enough game left for hector to make up any statistical differences, nor for those differences to matter, and the assumption that hector is sitting at 20/-- before promotion is already tenuous.

tl;dr hawkeye is pretty awesome. geitz is pretty good too, but his map blows.

Edited February 16, 2014 by dondon151

[Dwarfishh]

i take this as an admission that you don't know what you're talking about. if you're going to post something that can't be substantiated, you're better off not posting it at all.

That's a bit of a leap. My experiences happened in game, and therefore have some bearing, seeing as I didn't mod the game during these plays. This does show to an extent that there are no good or bad units per-se, just ones with a predisposition to being better or worse. (Generally speaking, some units are just going to be good, due to bases, like Athos.) But I don't think that Hawkeye is that good.

hector doesn't promote until chapter 30. there are 5 chapters left in the game, 1 of which doesn't really matter because it's a defense map. there are 9 chapters before chapter 30 where hawkeye exists and is doing much better than hector. the point is that there's not enough game left for hector to make up any statistical differences, nor for those differences to matter, and the assumption that hector is sitting at 20/-- before promotion is already tenuous.

This is assuming we're playing Hector mode. In Eliwood mode, he can promote as early as CH24. And how can defence maps not count? There are a fair few units there to give XP. And if you are playing Hector mode, even if hawkeye is better, Hector is required, and can fulfill the roles almost as well, giving you another slot for another character (May well be Hawkeye, but it's nice to have other options)

I'm not saying that Hector is outright better than Hawkeye, I'm just saying that, in my experience, with my playstyle, he is much more effective than Hawkeye, and saying why. And it's not irrelevant, since the topic is about why hector is/isnt overrated.

[dondon151]

seeing as I didn't mod the game during these plays.

is this some sort of jab that i detect

This does show to an extent that there are no good or bad units per-se, just ones with a predisposition to being better or worse.

i.e., there are good or bad units

But I don't think that Hawkeye is that good.

here's the problem. it doesn't matter what you think when your evaluation is factually inconsistent. you complained that hawkeye is "fairly fragile." HHM chapter 25 enemies max out at 23 atk and more than 6RKO hawkeye at 40 or less hit. almost all of them have 7 or less AS. what does he have to be afraid of? we were using hector as a basis of comparison. well, hector can be no statistically better than hawkeye until he promotes in chapter 30, and past then he can only just be a little better because 1) there's not very much of the game left, and 2) promoted units grow pretty slowly.

you cited hawkeye as having "bad supports." who cares. (a pent/louise triangle is not bad in turtle play considering that pent is awesome and louise... gives pent an A support.)

then you tried to cover your butt with EHM. remember how enemies with HHM bonuses are doubled by hawkeye and >6RKO him? yeah, hawkeye will roll all over EHM without a second thought. it doesn't matter if hector could be better because neither unit has any trouble there anyway.

Edited February 16, 2014 by dondon151

[Dwarfishh]

is this some sort of jab that i detect

i.e., there are good or bad units

here's the problem. it doesn't matter what you think when your evaluation is factually inconsistent. you complained that hawkeye is "fairly fragile." HHM chapter 25 enemies max out at 23 atk and more than 6RKO hawkeye at 40 or less hit. almost all of them have 7 or less AS. what does he have to be afraid of? we were using hector as a basis of comparison. well, hector can be no statistically better than hawkeye until he promotes in chapter 30, and past then he can only just be a little better because 1) there's not very much of the game left, and 2) promoted units grow pretty slowly.

you cited hawkeye as having "bad supports." who cares. (a pent/louise triangle is not bad in turtle play considering that pent is awesome and louise... gives pent an A support.)

then you tried to cover your butt with EHM. remember how enemies with HHM bonuses are doubled by hawkeye and >6RKO him? yeah, hawkeye will roll all over EHM without a second thought. it doesn't matter if hector could be better because neither unit has any trouble there anyway.

No jab at all, how could that possibly be a jab?

But Hawkeye is not one of them, so...

His only A support being Ninian, who, personally, I never use. I care about having decent supports, as they can really help units in a tight spot.

The being fragile part was considering his low speed, making him consistently doubled. I must've just got really unlucky in my playthroughs with him then, as he's been consistently doubled by late game enemies, an taking large amounts of damage in the process on numerous occasions (around 4-5, which is usually enough to gauge a units worth)

Why are you so determined to disprove every thing I say? I'm saying why I prefer Hector to Hawkeye, what's so wrong with that? Calm down...

[eclipse]

In what mode is Hawkeye doubled consistently?

[Dwarfishh]

In what mode is Hawkeye doubled consistently?

As I said, this was on my playthroughs, although it seems I have had the worst hawekeye experiences in the world... ever...