Chiki Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I'm gonna post this on Smogon's uber thread, but I'll go ahead and post this here too. 2 gens ago, Smogon banned Garchomp due to its Yache + SD set which had no counters except bulky Cresselia. This was understandable since it's not right to expect every team to carry bulky Cresselia to deal with Garchomp; banning Garchomp was probably justified. Fast forward to 2014. Almost everyone on Smogon thinks Mega Lucario should be banned. Why did I bring up Garchomp earlier? Well, Garchomp only had one solid counter. Lucario has many depending on which set it runs. I'll only be considering sets commonly used (so SD IP, Crunch, and NP) since they're the ones worth considering, since we decide what is uber and what is not based on usage, even though it's possible that Lucario has a better set. Garchomp was only considered uber material after its Yache set was discovered. Let's consider them one by one. Checks to most sets: Talonflame (he can take a hit from ES) Genesect Greninja Conkeldurr Breloom Starmie (can take a hit from ES) Excadrill (in sand) A bunch of Scarf users, ranging from Garchomp, Rotom-W, Heatran, and so on. Cripplers: Azumarill Sableye Klefki Thundurus Salamence Manectric Landorus-T SD Lucario w/ Ice Punch: Aegislash Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder) Gyarados Jellicent Zapdos Moltres Volcarona SD Lucario w/ Crunch: Aegislash (with good play) Gliscor Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder) Gyarados Landorus-T Zapdos Moltres Volcarona NP Lucario w/ Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere: Gyarados Mega Venusaur Zapdos Moltres Volcarona This set has few real counters, but it has more checks than usual due to having no priority moves. For example, Alakazam. NP Lucario w/ Vacuum Wave over Dark Pulse: Aegislash Gyarados Mega Venusaur Zapdos Moltres Volcarona This set has some advantages; it can't be checked by Genesect and Scarf Heatran, for example. I'm probably missing some counters here. I'm sure you guys can add more. Is Mega Lucario in this gen really that much different from LO Lucario back in Gen 4? Has Smogon become too banhappy? Honestly, it seems to me that people just want to ban everything that gives them the slightest bit of trouble nowadays. Banning Blaziken, Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan were good ideas, but is Mega Lucario going too far? Edited February 5, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djing Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Mega Lucario has two sets (Swords Dance and Nasty Plot). It is nigh impossible to counter both at the same time. The only Pokemon that are able to count both (Bulky Volcarona, Bulky Moltres, Bulky Zapdos) are only able to do so with Stealth Rock off the field. Mega Lucario also has a 4x Resistance to Stealth Rock meaning it can switch freely and wear down it's counters very easily. Teams often needed 2 Pokemon dedicated to handling it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Kamon Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Uh... Mega-Lucario, uber? Nah. It's OU and pretty strong, but not an Uber indeed. Talonflame and Aegislash are quite diffused and counter it 9/10 times, so... There also are many other pokémon who could take it without problems. Seriously. Just switch in at the right time, take one hit and 1HKO it. It's not difficult. It's just that people, especially on Showdown, always use the same pokémon with the same sets which happen to be unreliable against M-L. >_> Seriously, I get always insulted when I get around 1700s in Showdown because I use uncommon sets that people can't predict. .__. Honestly speaking, I didn't have a problem with Mega-Gengar either. Mega Kangaskhan and Blaziken were definitely uber though, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Smogon has always been ban-happy. Nothing new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahrivar Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I don't get the Mega-Luke hate. Of course he's strong and a great lategame sweeper but he's incredible frail and gets oneshoted by a lot of mons. I know why they banned MegaGengar (Perish Song trapper), but the ban was stupid imo - the endless clause showed that Smogon DOES complex ban, so why didn't they ban Gengarite + Perish Song? But 31% usage rate Smogon-W is fine and not overcentralizing, you hypocrites Edited February 5, 2014 by Assurhaddon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I actually think they are too banhappy last gen. Like, everything up to exca is okay. Landorus and Tor T is where it start to become crazy Okay, that and the fact that ALL the clusterfuck last gen could be solved by simply banning Politoed. Calling a team that includes Ttar a "sand team" past Exca ban is an insult in and on itself when only like Terrakion gives a shit about the boost, and doggy is nowhere to be seen, and nobody gives a shit to Ninetales Also IMO this gen banning is MUCH less justifiable because the volume of terrible players is too much and the meta is so diverse(WAYYY too much good pokemon) its hard to really see how the meta will shape. Edited February 5, 2014 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 After reading about eight pages of the suspect thread, it's kind of hard to disagree with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Banning Snow Cloak because Sand Veil was also banned (because of Garchomp) was the epitome of Smogon silliness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 One could say they're too ban-happy... though IMO, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. Most of what they ban was generally proven overcentralizing (see: Gen 4 Garchomp, Mega Kangaskhan). But I will say this: You can't tell if Lucario's special or physical until it boosts, and that one turn might be all the opponent needs to start crushing you under their heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruity Insanity Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I like using it, so no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I don't really remember mega Lucario giving my much trouble. From my experience its a strong mon, but not really something that can instantly get me into trouble. And I'm not even all that good. Its different then Mega Blaziken and Mega Kang who I did see everywhere and who where very annoying to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Uh... Mega-Lucario, uber? Nah. It's OU and pretty strong, but not an Uber indeed. Talonflame and Aegislash are quite diffused and counter it 9/10 times, so... There also are many other pokémon who could take it without problems. Seriously. Just switch in at the right time, take one hit and 1HKO it. It's not difficult. It's just that people, especially on Showdown, always use the same pokémon with the same sets which happen to be unreliable against M-L. >_> Seriously, I get always insulted when I get around 1700s in Showdown because I use uncommon sets that people can't predict. .__. Honestly speaking, I didn't have a problem with Mega-Gengar either. Mega Kangaskhan and Blaziken were definitely uber though, yes. One of which gets crippled by Stealth Rock, and the other wouldn't like taking the odd EQ (and EQ doesn't trigger the attack drop from King's Shield). And supposing I do have my Talonflame or Aegislash out against Mega Lucario, what's to stop Lucario from just switching out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) But 31% usage rate Smogon-W is fine and not overcentralizing, you hypocrites Usage has nothing to do with being overcentralizing or not. Rotom-w being used a lot doesn't means he is overcentralizing the game, because there are many things able to counter or check it. Rotom-W is the kind of pokemon that only is used because it counters other things being used. I bet that if his usage dropped, he wouldn't even be banned from UU, for example. Banning Snow Cloak because Sand Veil was also banned (because of Garchomp) was the epitome of Smogon silliness. WHAT? LOL NO. They were banned under the evasion clause. That's not silly at all. BTW, I don't think Smogon is that ban happy. I like their bans in general. And I can't wait for mega lucario to be gone. Edited February 6, 2014 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Kitty Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Usage has nothing to do with being overcentralizing or not. Rotom-w being used a lot doesn't means he is overcentralizing the game, because there are many things able to counter or check it. Rotom-W is the kind of pokemon that only is used because it counters other things being used. I bet that if his usage dropped, he wouldn't even be banned from UU, for example. WHAT? LOL NO. They were banned under the evasion clause. That's not silly at all. BTW, I don't think Smogon is that ban happy. I like their bans in general. And I can't wait for mega lucario to be gone. I'm pretty much in agreement with this. Nothing I've seen banned I didn't either agree with or understand. Personally, I think most people dislike bans because they're either too afraid of ubers(it's probably the easiest tier because most of it is noobs with their ROAR OF TIME DARKRAI'S and their AEROBLAST LUGIA'S) or they like whatever is getting banned a lot. And mega gengar was not banned because of perish song trapping(although that's a valid reason), it was banned because of it's ability it shits down the neck of anything that happens to be in play when mega-gengar is and isn't a direct counter because it has 170 base special attack and 130 base speed and you can't switch out. tl;dr most if not every ban is valid and roar of time is a terrible gimmicky move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahrivar Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Usage has nothing to do with being overcentralizing or not. Rotom-w being used a lot doesn't means he is overcentralizing the game, because there are many things able to counter or check it. Rotom-W is the kind of pokemon that only is used because it counters other things being used. I bet that if his usage dropped, he wouldn't even be banned from UU, for example. If something is used almost twice the amount of anything it counters, it counters too well imo. 31% when only one other Pokemon manages to get past 20 (21, and Genesect is a uber suspect), there's something wrong. Rotom-W was OU last gen aswell, without Talonflame (I know Talonflame isn't the only mon he counters) being around - it has a great typing, a good ability resulting in "zero" weakness (grass isn't a good offense type, there are plenty of teams without it) and a great movement pool - it's incredible versatile aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Usage has nothing to do with being overcentralizing or not. Why would a Pokemon that's never used overcentralize the metagame? Obviously it has everything to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Why would a Pokemon that's never used overcentralize the metagame? Obviously it has everything to do with it. In order to be overcentralizing, a pokemon has to be used a lot, but if a pokemon is used a lot, it doesn't mean it's overcentralizing If something is used almost twice the amount of anything it counters, it counters too well imo. 31% when only one other Pokemon manages to get past 20 (21, and Genesect is a uber suspect), there's something wrong. Rotom-W was OU last gen aswell, without Talonflame (I know Talonflame isn't the only mon he counters) being around - it has a great typing, a good ability resulting in "zero" weakness (grass isn't a good offense type, there are plenty of teams without it) and a great movement pool - it's incredible versatile aswell. Still, you don't have to use a SPECIFIC rotom-w counter in your team. He's not the kind of pokemon that needs one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 These are two contradictory claims: In order to be overcentralizing, a pokemon has to be used a lot Usage has nothing to do with being overcentralizing or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) These are two contradictory claims: Ok, i made a contradictory claim, so what? What i meant is that not every pokemon that is used a lot is overcentralizing. Edited February 6, 2014 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) A pokemon is overcentralizing if the entire metagame ends up shaping itself around it. There's a difference between that (Say, the old example of every Gen4 team being Garchomp/Garchomp-counter/Garchomp-counter-counter) and a Pokemon that has a wide variety of uses in the current metagame. Edited February 6, 2014 by Alg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) A pokemon is overcentralizing if the entire metagame ends up shaping itself around it. There's a difference between that (Say, the old example of every Gen4 team being Garchomp/Garchomp-counter/Garchomp-counter-counter) and a Pokemon that's used a lot. This it true. Just to show what I mean: How to deal with gen 4 Garchomp: You have to use one of his few specific counters in your team How to deal with Rotom-W: Don't make a team full of pokemon it counters. I don't find rotom broken or anything. It's actually a pokemon extremely easy to deal with. Edited February 6, 2014 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djing Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Rotom-W's usage is based almost entirely off of it being safe and practical. It doesn't sweep teams or wall anything. All it does is make teams work. Kinda like a Medic or Engineer in Team Fortress 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Rotom W is anti metagame the same as Gen 4 Scizor And Gen 4 Scizor is used WAYYYYYY higher than Rotom W. SO Scizor should be banned?\ Fun Facts: To this day Garchomp is the only banned pokemon who has ever been #1 in usage Edited February 6, 2014 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Ok, i made a contradictory claim, so what? What i meant is that not every pokemon that is used a lot is overcentralizing. If you wanna argue in favor of anything, then the last thing you want to do is make contradictory claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 These are two contradictory claims: i don't think these claims are contradictory at all. he's saying that usage is a necessary but not sufficient property of a pokemon that should be banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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