Is Smogon too banhappy?

[Chiki]

i don't think these claims are contradictory at all. he's saying that usage is a necessary but not sufficient property of a pokemon that should be banned.

He's saying usage has nothing to do with it. If you say nothing, it means that it's not necessary either. He probably phrased what he was saying wrong and it's not worth dwelling on it too much.

[XeKr]

'Overcentralizing' is clearly not the primary ban rationale anymore (it perhaps never should have been). Stealth Rock is fairly ubiquitous in the metagame and has been for multiple gens. Politoed last gen, etc. Hazards and/or removing hazards is part of the game. Playing Rain or around Rain Gen 5 is part of the game.

Instead, people just talk about what's 'unhealthy' for the metagame (whatever that means). Top player consensus is for example, Rotom is 'healthy' for the metagame. Mega Luke is not. Inevitably subjective, but that's why the system is having people (namely the top players above a ladder cutoff) vote.

[Redwall]

Talonflame (he can take a hit from ES)

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If we adopt these definitions, Talonflame can't be considered a check to ES Mega Lucario.

Genesect

Also not a reliable check since +2 Vacuum Wave does 67.8% minimum. Genesect can get worn down pretty fast when SR is up.

Greninja

Greninja fails to check Mega Lucario reliably unless the former has Shadow Sneak to make itself immune to Mega Lucario's priority. +2 Extreme Speed does 91.6% minimum, while +2 Vacuum Wave is a clean OHKO.

Conkeldurr

Mach Punch doesn't OHKO Mega Lucario, dealing a max of 70.9% to 4 HP / 0 Def / 0 SDef Mega Lucario. +2 Flash Cannon deals 84% minimum to 252 HP / 0 SDef AV Conk, and while it is true that competent players shove some of the HP EVs into SDef, it remains a clean 2HKO. +2 Close Combat OHKOs.

Breloom

While Mach Punch OHKOs, Mega Lucario outprioritizes with ES or Vacuum Wave and OHKOs with a SD or NP.

Starmie (can take a hit from ES)

LO Starmie has only a 47.23% chance of OHKOing full-health Mega Lucario with Hydro Pump after accounting for accuracy and crits, with Analytic neglected. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie also gets OHKOed by +2 ES 70.7% of the time if SR is up and we account for crits.

Excadrill (in sand)

A bunch of Scarf users, ranging from Garchomp, Rotom-W, Heatran, and so on.

Scarf users don't have priority attacks and often lose you a tempo when Mega Lucario switches out. It is for this reason that Darkrai isn't allowed in OU in spite of its susceptibility to a Fighting Pokemon with a Scarf. And while it is true Excadrill checks Mega Lucario when sand is up, it only prevents Mega Lucario from setting up; it doesn't dissuade it from firing unboosted attacks on slower Pokemon that will have to die if Excadrill is to safely get in.

Azumarill

Azumarill gets OHKOed by +2 Flash Cannon.

Sableye

Sableye doesn't do anything to the NP set and doesn't get much done beyond burning the switch (which will likely be something that can force out Sableye). From there Mega Lucario can (for example) get in on a double-switch and continue threatening the opponent.

Klefki

Again, Klefki's not worth much more than a free paralysis on something expendable unless you're using the Swagger set, which is a losing set on average.

Thundurus

It's true that it cripples the NP set, but the SD set beats it without losing a step:

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 252-297 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Salamence

Yes for physical sets lacking Ice Punch, but this has little value when considering that you basically lose a Pokemon if you incorrectly guess Mega Lucario's set.

Manectric

Still a shaky check since +2 Vacuum Wave and +1 ES deal minimums of 79% and 60.4% respectively.

Landorus-T

It gets beaten by the NP set if it lacks a Choice Scarf. If it does have a Choice Scarf, then it's worth noting that EQ and Superpower are among the worst moves to be Scarf-locked into.

Aegislash

It can't switch into Dark moves at all, taking about 40% minimum with 252 HP EVs and four or none in the appropriate defense. The risk-reward game favors the Mega Lucario much more when considering that you often have no other Pokemon who can switch into Mega Lucario's Fighting STAB. A Landorus-T and Aegislash combo won't fear Fighting STAB but will get worn down by Dark Pulse.

Mega Venusaur (Sleep Powder)

Sleep Powder isn't reliable both because of accuracy and because the opponent can fodder something to sleep. Mega Venusaur's Earthquake fails to OHKO Mega Lucario unless the latter has a CC defense drop, while +2 Crunch and CC used in succession will KO any Mega Venusaur not at full health and with significant Def investment. +2 Flash Cannon still 2HKOs even the most specially defensive MVenu, who will only 2HKO back with Earthquake or put something expendable to sleep.

Gyarados

Zapdos

Moltres

Volcarona

It's really easy to wear these guys down with double-switches into SR. When you have to spin/Defog to get these guys in, it's the Mega Lucario player who's dictating the game, even if he can't sweep right away, since he can capitalize on that free turn and make you react to it the way he wants.

Jellicent

While it beats Mega Lucario lacking a Dark move, basically every competent player uses a Dark move on their Mega Lucario given the prevalence of Aegislash. This is likely something not borne out in the ladder's weighted usage statistics given that only a small fraction of ladder players are any good.

Gliscor

As with bulky Salamence, you basically lose a Pokemon if you incorrectly guess Mega Lucario's set.

Is Mega Lucario in this gen really that much different from LO Lucario back in Gen 4?

While Flygon, Celebi, Gengar, and Jirachi all outsped Lucario in Gen 4 without needing a Choice Scarf, they (and the Gen 5 musketeers and Lati twins) now find themselves incapable of forcing out a Mega-evolved Lucario even with the health to take boosted priority moves. Compared to LO Lucario, Mega Lucario barely worries about putting itself on a timer thanks to its lack of LO recoil; CC is the most likely to run out of PP, but in those games where you do run out of PP, the opponent will probably be in a losing position from having taken so many CCs (assuming the Mega Lucario player uses double-switches to punish Zapdos). You can prevent Mega Lucario from setting up if constant offensive pressure is applied by making everything on your team capable of 2HKOing Mega Lucario, but this limits teambuilding significantly. Given its ridiculous speed and the fact that the only Pokemon that can switch into both the main sets (SD Crunch and NP) are all weak to SR, I think a ban is fair.

It's also worth noting that some people use Vacuum Wave / Dark Pulse / Flash Cannon on the NP set to retain a priority move while still being able to hit Aegislash.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Miikaya

[Shadow Mir]

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And even then, Stealth Rock is a thing, as I stated earlier. Which means that Talonflame would need to be perfectly healthy just to "check" Mega Lucario (which, between Stealth Rock and the fact that its moves have recoil damage, practically means you'd have to have been saving it for Mega Lucario AND kept Stealth Rocks off the field).

Sableye doesn't do anything to the NP set and doesn't get much done beyond burning the switch (which will likely be something that can force out Sableye). From there Mega Lucario can (for example) get in on a double-switch and continue threatening the opponent.

And even then, Will-O-Wisp can miss.

[Fruity Insanity]

I dunno, I feel that Aegislash checks a physical set cause King's Shield, etc.

But all teams don't have Aegislash, soooo...

[PKL]

I like how pro-ban always uses the calcs for +2 lucario. What evidence is there in-battle to support that he's wrecking the metagame? Are the Pokemon top players losing to M-Lucario against lesser players? Is he really unhealthy for the game if he isnt? Honestly, Pokemon players to me are crybabies.

[Ema Skye]

I like how pro-ban always uses the calcs for +2 lucario.

1. Lucario player sends it in on someone Lucario forces out, such as Ferrothorn.

2. Lucario takes their switch out turn to mega evolve and use Nasty Plot or Swords Dance.

3. Your new counter/check has to withstand a +2 Lucario now.

[Shadow Mir]

I like how pro-ban always uses the calcs for +2 lucario. What evidence is there in-battle to support that he's wrecking the metagame? Are the Pokemon top players losing to M-Lucario against lesser players? Is he really unhealthy for the game if he isnt? Honestly, Pokemon players to me are crybabies.

I've gone through the entirety of Pokemon Online's suspect discussion thread (they already banned Lucarionite, btw), and am on page 11 of Smogon's suspect thread, and I'm already sold that that thing needs to go.

-No hard counters

-All its best checks are Stealth Rock weak (Talonflame, Zapdos, Moltres, Volcarona)

-Can go Special, physical, or even mixed (the former in particular is especially dangerous)

-Easy to slap on a team and do something with (just like Mega Kangaskhan was)

-3 80 BP priority moves

It's pretty telling that after a certain point on the ladder, you either have to run it or lose. That's overcentralizing.

[algae]

-No hard counters

-All its best checks are Stealth Rock weak (Talonflame, Zapdos, Moltres, Volcarona)

-Can go Special, physical, or even mixed (the former in particular is especially dangerous)

I also remember reading that its versatility means that you could easily bring in something to deal with the wrong set, since you won't know what it's going to run until it's too late.

Obligatory Showdown replay

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I'm more amazed by Genesect than Lucario in that replay tbh

[Rehab]

Rotom-W's usage is based almost entirely off of it being safe and practical.

It doesn't sweep teams or wall anything.

All it does is make teams work. Kinda like a Medic or Engineer in Team Fortress 2.

Not that this has a lick to do with what you're saying about Lucario or competitive Pokemon, but a good chunk of competitive tf2 revolves around the medic completely- there is literally no situation in which a medic player would switch to another class, and they're limited to one per team. The reason the tf2 comp community would probably give for why he's, uh, allowed, is more like "the game is demonstrably less fun without a medic to revolve around"

'more u kno

(leaves casually after having interjected regarding the game he's actually played(like an asshole))

[PKL]

I also remember reading that its versatility means that you could easily bring in something to deal with the wrong set, since you won't know what it's going to run until it's too late.

Obligatory Showdown replay

Nothing impressive. Just a bad player getting sweeped by a sweeper. The guy got 6-0'd I mean, come on.

[XeKr]

(disclaimer: I don’t actually follow the metagame that closely). So, from how it was described to me by a friend better at this stuff, for Mega Luke you specifically teambuild to carry 2 or more checks, then guess the wrong set and lose anyway. >_>

Personally, I think we should end this charade and let Rayquaza/Deoxys A into OU.

[Shahrivar]

Rotom-W's usage is based almost entirely off of it being safe and practical.

It doesn't sweep teams or wall anything.

All it does is make teams work. Kinda like a Medic or Engineer in Team Fortress 2.

I think it's not just being safe - it can cripple your team with WoW and/or Trick and is enough of a threat with Hydro Pump/Volt Switch. You don't have to sweep or be Lugia to be too much, Rotom-W is incredibly versatile and strong.

'Overcentralizing' is clearly not the primary ban rationale anymore (it perhaps never should have been). Stealth Rock is fairly ubiquitous in the metagame and has been for multiple gens. Politoed last gen, etc. Hazards and/or removing hazards is part of the game. Playing Rain or around Rain Gen 5 is part of the game.

Instead, people just talk about what's 'unhealthy' for the metagame (whatever that means). Top player consensus is for example, Rotom is 'healthy' for the metagame. Mega Luke is not. Inevitably subjective, but that's why the system is having people (namely the top players above a ladder cutoff) vote.

I dislike the term unhealthy. What actually is unhealthy for the metagame? Is it healthy that 90% of the teams use SR and your team has to have an answer for it? Of course other entry hazards matter aswell, but be honest - how often do you see Sticky Web/Spikes compared to SR (I don't see Toxic Spikes at all)?

I don't really get it neither do I get why a complex ban for Gengarite wasn't possible.

(disclaimer: I don’t actually follow the metagame that closely). So, from how it was described to me by a friend better at this stuff, for Mega Luke you specifically teambuild to carry 2 or more checks, then guess the wrong set and lose anyway. >_>

Personally, I think we should end this charade and let Rayquaza/Deoxys A into OU.

Pretty please, I want to use my bro Rayquaza

[LuxSpes]

Not that this has a lick to do with what you're saying about Lucario or competitive Pokemon, but a good chunk of competitive tf2 revolves around the medic completely- there is literally no situation in which a medic player would switch to another class, and they're limited to one per team. The reason the tf2 comp community would probably give for why he's, uh, allowed, is more like "the game is demonstrably less fun without a medic to revolve around"

'more u kno

(leaves casually after having interjected regarding the game he's actually played(like an asshole))

Actually, comp revolves around the medic because the defending team often have the advantage and uber is the only way to break through the defense(or to defend against an uber). Ubers are short moment of complete OPness in the hands of good players, which is why uber advantage and having a roamer or sniper pick the medic is so important in comp. To compare it to pokemon, having the uber advantage is having the momentum on your side. I can't say much about comp pokemon, being pretty new to it, but before I started coming here regularly,I spent a lot of time discussing comp tf2 with some who played in the format(was a reserve member for a comp team for a while

[Djing]

the game is demonstrably less fun without a medic to revolve around

Exactly.

Rotom-W ends stalemates by giving your team free switches to push through. Rotom-W softens blows with Will-O-Wisp allowing your teammates to set up. Both of these traits are very TF2 Medic-like things to have.

I don't actually play competetive tf2 so I could just be talking out my ass.

[LuxSpes]

Exactly.

Rotom-W ends stalemates by giving your team free switches to push through. Rotom-W softens blows with Will-O-Wisp allowing your teammates to set up. Both of these traits are very TF2 Medic-like things to have.

I don't actually play competetive tf2 so I could just be talking out my ass.

Well, I Rotom-W is a pretty good at gaining and maintaining momentum and the medic is the driving force of your pushes, so I guess the comparison is pretty good.

[Redwall]

I like how pro-ban always uses the calcs for +2 lucario. What evidence is there in-battle to support that he's wrecking the metagame?

Well, this thread, for starters. As far as MLuc-team vs. non-MLuc-team matchups go, the only teams that match up well against Mega Lucario are the ones that either exert constant offensive pressure on it and have one or zero Pokemon that lose 1v1 to an unboosted Mega Luc, or the ones that are packed to the teeth with counters.

Are the Pokemon top players losing to M-Lucario against lesser players?

Yes, but this would happen in a non-broken metagame as well. A pretty common example of Mega Lucario winning against a standard team would be when Aegislash switches in on Nasty Plot, expecting to tank a +2 Dark Pulse and KO with Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak, but winds up eating a flinch 20% of the time and getting swept as a consequence; obviously the correct play for the Mega Lucario would be to simply chip at Aegislash with Dark Pulse, threatening everything else with its unboosted STABs, (which only reinforces the claim that Mega Lucario is a bit too good for OU), but a lot of ladder players just set up early for some reason.

Is he really unhealthy for the game if he isnt?

I've already explained why he's unhealthy.

Honestly, Pokemon players to me are crybabies.

On the contrary, the players eligible to vote tend to be (by design) the players least likely to lose on the ladder and complain about non-broken stuff like stall teams. That they feel the need ban so many things suggests only that Gamefreak doesn't really care much about balancing the singles metagame (which is consistent with the fact that VGC favors doubles matches). You need only look to Smogon's doubles metagame, which features very few bans (MKanga is allowed in OU), to realize that Smogon players don't just ban things for the heck of it.

I'm more amazed by Genesect than Lucario in that replay tbh

Genesect was superfluous in the match. The winner could have double-switched to Deoxys-S on turn 3 and either set up another layer of Spikes or used Psycho Boost on Mega Venusaur. Later on, switching in Genesect on Latios wasn't necessary when Greninja could have simply attacked the Rotom-W switch-in.

I dunno, I feel that Aegislash checks a physical set cause King's Shield, etc.

People on Smogon use a pretty stringent definition of check: a check to a certain Pokemon should, going by this subjectively chosen definition, win 100% of the time if given a free switch-in. Aegislash's reliance on King's Shield guessing games precludes it from being classified as this type of check.

[Skynstein]

WHAT? LOL NO. They were banned under the evasion clause. That's not silly at all.

BTW, I don't think Smogon is that ban happy. I like their bans in general. And I can't wait for mega lucario to be gone.

It is...?

Snow Cloak is not on the same level as Sand Veil, because Hail sucks as weather (worse inducers, only benefits Ice Pokémon, no stat boosts) and the ability itself has poor distribution. You can't even base your team around it (Snow Cloak) and win. The Evasion clause was purely a ban on accuracy and evasion moves, they never banned evasive abilities because the boosts granted by things like Sand Veil are small, and the only reason they banned it was because they wanted to unban Garchomp, who was deemed uber by the Smogon kids because their 100% accuracy move would miss at a critical moment under sand. Funny thing is that by doing this they broke their precious unwritten rule on complex bans, which is why for example Excadrill as a whole was banned and not just the Sand Rush variant.

You could say they were consistent and due to this it was better to bsn Snow Cloak as well, but from a balancing perspective Snow Cloak is almost irrelevant to competitive play because it's a very poor combination of abilities and hardly game breaking at all. It's a small evasion boost, under a weather that benefits only, let's say, 10% of the viable Pokémon at most, and an even small percentage of that is in OU environment which is largely harmful to Ice-types. Due to this, I can call their ban silly, yes.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Malebolganone

[Ema Skye]

Funny thing is that by doing this they broke their precious unwritten rule on complex bans, which is why for example Excadrill as a whole was banned and not just the Sand Rush variant.

Except it wasn't actually a complex ban.

Banning Sand Veil Garchomp would be a complex ban.

Banning Sand Veil is a simple ban.

Banning Garchomp is a simple ban.

[Nobody]

It is...?

Snow Cloak is not on the same level as Sand Veil, because Hail sucks as weather (worse inducers, only benefits Ice Pokémon, no stat boosts) and the ability itself has poor distribution. You can't even base your team around it (Snow Cloak) and win. The Evasion clause was purely a ban on accuracy and evasion moves, they never banned evasive abilities because the boosts granted by things like Sand Veil are small, and the only reason they banned it was because they wanted to unban Garchomp, who was deemed uber by the Smogon kids because their 100% accuracy move would miss at a critical moment under sand. Funny thing is that by doing this they broke their precious unwritten rule on complex bans, which is why for example Excadrill as a whole was banned and not just the Sand Rush variant.

You could say they were consistent and due to this it was better to bsn Snow Cloak as well, but from a balancing perspective Snow Cloak is almost irrelevant to competitive play because it's a very poor combination of abilities and hardly game breaking at all. It's a small evasion boost, under a weather that benefits only, let's say, 10% of the viable Pokémon at most, and an even small percentage of that is in OU environment which is largely harmful to Ice-types. Due to this, I can call their ban silly, yes.

Snow cloak is analogous to sand veil. The fact that it has worse distribution and relies on a worse weather means nothing. It still boosts evasion, which is something that shouldn't happen. Not banning this abilities from the start was the error, IMO, which was actually justified, since not every pokemon had another ability to use. Now that every pokemon with either sand veil or snow cloak has other ability as well, nothing more fair than banning them.

BTW, learn what a complex ban actually is, because you clearly don't know.

[Jedi]

I still think Stealth rock needs to go bye bye. Completely

[Nobody]

I still think Stealth rock needs to go bye bye. Completely

Why? I always run talonflame or charizard in my teams and SR never made me lose a battle. It's really, really easy to keep it outside of the field now.

[Redwall]

It's really, really easy to keep it outside of the field now.

It can be really difficult to keep it off if you're playing someone good. Taunt stops Defog (just EV Heatran to be faster than Mandibuzz); Exploding Smeargle on Mandibuzz or Skarmory as it tries to Defog makes the Defog fail; and of course there's double switching your Thundurus-I into a predicted Mandibuzz/Skarmory switch. The Lati twins get punished by Aegislash when Defogging: even if you have something that can switch into Shadow Ball, people sometimes run Pursuit on Aegislash higher up on the ladder, so you only get SR off for some amount of time unless you've also killed their Rocker.

[Nobody]

It can be really difficult to keep it off if you're playing someone good. Taunt stops Defog (just EV Heatran to be faster than Mandibuzz); Exploding Smeargle on Mandibuzz or Skarmory as it tries to Defog makes the Defog fail; and of course there's double switching your Thundurus-I into a predicted Mandibuzz/Skarmory switch. The Lati twins get punished by Aegislash when Defogging: even if you have something that can switch into Shadow Ball, people sometimes run Pursuit on Aegislash higher up on the ladder, so you only get SR off for some amount of time unless you've also killed their Rocker.

Well, this is true, but do you think stealth rock should be banned?