Sometimes, same turn reinforcements are disgusting.

[Tables]

Playing FE12 semi-blind for the first time. I like that there's often hints about reinforcements, either explicit (such as Cain in Prologue 7, or the boss of chapter 4 talking about hidden forces in the forts) or implicit (gee this map is covered in forts I wonder what might happen?), but still, sometimes same turn reinforcements can just catch you completely off guard, especially when they're almost two screens away from your characters but still able to reach you thanks to the most insane move stat I've seen in the series yet.

Well, at least there's map saves scattered around, so I only lost a few turns of progress. There are worse same turn reinforcements in the series, though. This one just took me by complete surprise; I think I'm stilll trying to wrap my head around fighting flying enemies with 12 move.

Anyone else got any stories of same turn reinforcement horrors? I reckon FE6 is probably a big offender...

[General Horace]

i just assumed in fe12 that every fort was going to have reinforcements to fuck me over.

it definately happened to me a few times.

[dondon151]

sometimes, 12-move flying enemies with 1-2 range and insane spd growth are disgusting.

makes me really wish i had some of that!

Edited March 21, 2014 by dondon151

[RJWalker]

I'll give credit where it is due and say that FE13 gices out hints when and where reinforcements will ambush you from every time.

[PKL]

I love wyverns. I think they gave a good reason to use bows for once. Chapter 12 is very obvious reinforcement city. The only time I got ambush spawned in 12 in my blind playthrough was C14 with the ice dragons near the start :/. Those are worse imo.

In FE13, Kjelly's Paralogue and C16 come to mind as unfair reinforcement city. I definetely wasnt warned about those pegs rage.

[Thor Odinson]

So FE12 Lunatic

that chapter where you get the wolfguard and shit

going down to village to get Roshea

Suddenly 12 wyverns spawn around and since same turn, got close enough where I can't do anything

I did not expect that shit that wasn't on hard what the fuck

Is this what I get for skipping maniac

[Tables]

I love wyverns. I think they gave a good reason to use bows for once. Chapter 12 is very obvious reinforcement city. The only time I got ambush spawned in 12 in my blind playthrough was C14 with the ice dragons near the start :/. Those are worse imo.

In FE13, Kjelly's Paralogue and C16 come to mind as unfair reinforcement city. I definetely wasnt warned about those pegs rage.

Kjelle's Side Story seems fine to me. Reinforcements start coming from the stairs (which are all aroung the edge) from like chapter 2, that's early enough that you're either not likely to get ambushed and see there are reinforcements, or it's early enough that restarting won't be a big deal. Chapter 16 Falcoknights are definitely the worst reinforcements in the game. The side stories are often not great about warning (oh you visited a village in Laurent's chapter, lol have some reinforcements from an arbitrary side of the map), but in the main game, chapter 16 is horrid. Those Falcoknights mean the only safe place is the middle of the map.

And yeah I'm finding that bows are actually pretty valuable. I was pretty sure I picked up a Shaver in chapter 4 as well, but it seems to have mysteriously vanished (or well more likely, the one time I beat the chapter was the one time I forgot to visit the village), which means bows are my only flier effective weapon for the mist part. I'm really loving my former Archer and now General Palla. Because who doesn't love a General with awesome speed, strength and defence?

[General Horace]

Kjelle's Side Story seems fine to me. Reinforcements start coming from the stairs (which are all aroung the edge) from like chapter 2, that's early enough that you're either not likely to get ambushed and see there are reinforcements, or it's early enough that restarting won't be a big deal. Chapter 16 Falcoknights are definitely the worst reinforcements in the game. The side stories are often not great about warning (oh you visited a village in Laurent's chapter, lol have some reinforcements from an arbitrary side of the map), but in the main game, chapter 16 is horrid. Those Falcoknights mean the only safe place is the middle of the map.

And yeah I'm finding that bows are actually pretty valuable. I was pretty sure I picked up a Shaver in chapter 4 as well, but it seems to have mysteriously vanished (or well more likely, the one time I beat the chapter was the one time I forgot to visit the village), which means bows are my only flier effective weapon for the mist part. I'm really loving my former Archer and now General Palla. Because who doesn't love a General with awesome speed, strength and defence?

this happens to me all the time (in bold)

also related to fe13 reinforcements, I remember getting owned by the npc's in chapter 17? but that was heavily hinted at, and that was more me being sad that cynthia was convienently next to a sniper

[eclipse]

FE12 had the worst ambushes (Chapter 12 is a sore spot that I wish didn't happen - at least Chapter 19 can be semi-warpskipped, but I have no idea what happens on Lunatic). FE13 usually warned me, and they were fairly predictable (Chapter 16 nonwithstanding).

EDIT: The only other reinforcements that I don't like are on the final chapter of FE8 and FE7 - the latter caught me by surprise, which in turn forced a chapter restart (stupid Generals out of nowhere).

Edited March 21, 2014 by eclipse

[BrightBow]

I can't exaggerate how much this one mechanic dragged down the whole game for me.

Of course it's unfair. You don't know what spawns, where it spawns, when it spawns. when it stops spawning and what it has equipped. So there is no way to be prepared. It's all Trial and Error. I can't comprehend what IS was thinking with bringing that mechanic back. I would have assumed that it was dropped for a reason in the first place.

Edited March 21, 2014 by BrightBow

[PKL]

You guys are conveniently looking at the only spawns that are troublesome. There's a lot more ambush spawns they have gotten right than the ones they've gotten wrong in the series:

FE11 generally has faraway reinforcements, Chapter 7 and some exceptions notwithstanding.

FE12:

Chapter 3x Kleine warns about reinforcements from the forts 2 turns before.

Chapter 4 the boss warns about the reinforcements from the forts and they're in the sand tiles which slows them down. They're there to prevent stalling really.

Chapter 5 has that one Thief that only comes in Turn 8 if you still haven't visited the Hammerne village. His whole purpose in life is to take down the village if you're being slow.

Chapter 6 has Frey/Norne spawning 1 or 2 turns earlier than the reinforcements and they explicitly warn you about em. The reinforcements come from the same place they do, except even farther away, so theyre easy to avoid and wont unfairly kill you or anything.

Chapter 7 doesnt have warnings, but the reinforcements are so far away, coming from forts, from the same place Astram is. You generally dont want to go there unless youre suicidal anyway. Pretty sure they serve to speed the chapter up too or punish you for taking it slow. This and the scorpio shard leads me to believe they wanted the chapter to be fast.

Chapter 8 they come from forts in the south from the same place Astram is. Again, theyre mainly there to scare you into going fast and not bossabuse or whatever. There's also those generals from Hardin, but you wouldnt go near Hardin would you?

Chapter 9 there's Astram's squad. I guess it makes sense since theyre still chasing you but it can categorized as a bad ambush.

Chapter 12 has all the forts and theyre designed in a way that makes you want to just rush to the Turn 3 forts. Stalling in the south usually doesnt do anything to remedy the reinforcements, since theyre zonebased.

Chapter 13 has wyverns coming from far away and Ice Dragons from forts that are in places youre generally not going to be.

Chapter 14 ambush is poorly done. Lovely chapter otherwise.

Chapter 15 has ambush from the same place as Shadow Dragon. Except its zonebased when youre reeeeeally far away (near the save point in the bridge to the boss area)

Chapter 16 warns you that if you open the door, bad things will happen.

Chapter 17 is f'd up :/ No warning for those new Dracoknights. Bad ambush.

Chapter 19 is hinted at IIRC. And you know those forts are trouble anyway. At least I did. I was asking myself in my blind playthrough if they really had the guts to put 9+ reinforcements in those forts and....welp I was right. As trial-and-error as it is, I enjoyed finding out how to get to the boss without triggering them though.

Chapter 20 has ambush from the same places as Shadow Dragon. Far away Paladins. Though Lunatic adds Heroes too from a decent distance.

Chapter 21 has the one wyvern that appears from the middle fort all of a sudden. His AI is programmed to ignore every unit even if it can kill it though. Always goes for the village. It's also pretty easy to block that fort or just ignore him and then kill him.

Chapter 22 ambush is kinda poor though Ive never gotten killed by them. They are in places where you could be though, so thats why i see theyre poorly done. Pretty sure theyre there to make you get overwhelmed for stalling though.

Chapter 23 eh, they appear very late into the map so they dont really matter. Probably just there to make you hurry up.

Endgame the whole thing with these guys was to make you hurry up. But theyre in a place where youll be and exist just to make you realize you have to strategize and beat Medeus as quickly as you can. Trial-and-error.

FE13 has a few that are too close to your units, but they usually warn you about it.

Like, Chapter 5: there are forts everywhere and Gangrel warns you about them. I mean, come on.

Chapter 7 those wyvern reinforcements got me once iirc. Wasnt expecting them. Not sure if warned.

Chapter 9 boss warns you about them 2-3 turns before they come. You should almost be done or have no one in the start by then anyway.

Chapter 10 warns you and there are forts. They also come rather late.

Chapter 11 has those lone forts in the northwest that scream HEY WERE REINFORCEMENTS OK?

Chapter 13 has them forts and I'm pretty sure Henry hints at them. Due to how theyre made, they can get you by surprise though, especially since some of the spawns have longbows.

Chapter 14 is pegasus reinforcements from all directions boat. To be fair, youre probably done by then unless you wanted all the loot or to rout. Bad ambush.

Chapter 16 has those pegasus/Falcons that come from seemingly nowhere. Boss only warned about the south ones. Bad ambush.

Chapter 17 is warned about in Turn 7 and they come so late...

Chapter 19 has forts and i think hes hinted at by walhart.

Tiki Paralogue...duh

Chapter 20 warns about em. Probably meant to discourage stalling as they appear at the beginning of the map and are too many to handle.

Chapter 21 Mire Sorcerers...bad ambush spawns all over this map. They can easily kill Olivia.

Chapter 23 warned about by Validar, theyre hard to predict though...

Chapter 24 fortville. Generally bad ambush as it isnt hinted at enough and their fort spawn is unpredictable.

Chapter 25 has those enemies come out of nowhere IIRC.

Endgame infiniteforcements are done better than 12.

So, there are a lot more better ambush spawns than bad ones.

Edited March 21, 2014 by PKL

[metalsnowman3]

in Ch 7 for FE13, cordelia warns you about being chased when she enters the field. The first time i played it I got her and then went to go eat, totally forgot that she warned about em, and then they wyvern knights went on to kill lissa, maribelle, and probably miriel, it was brutal but that was my fault for forgetting and have all my units stacked in the starting area.

For FE12, on my first runthrough (only on hard) I didn't really have trouble on chapter 12, I think by then my units were pretty beast. General Caeda and Horseman my unit were really powerful and good at tanking all those choke points. That being said when I got near the end of the map I was super cautious as to not get ambushed which prob made my turncount really high, but I don't care about that anyways, especially on first runs. Chapter 14 with the ice dragons almost got me because I took so long I didn't think there would be more reinforcements and then I wacked the boss and got ambushed, but I think only one of them actually engaged one of my units. Those Astram group reinforcements were so scary because I had to hold them off while Marth was stuck in the desert after getting Minerva and I already used up all of that rescue staff.

I don't mind the instant move reinforcements on higher difficulties, they are definitely a challenge and it makes it so you have to be prepared for anything and you can't just leave your weaker units alone in the back, unless you are ok with them dying.

[BrightBow]

You guys are conveniently looking at the only spawns that are troublesome. There's a lot more ambush spawns they have gotten right than the ones they've gotten wrong in the series:

No, almost all instantly moving spawns are troublesome.There are exceptions, sure. Like Astram's squad. Since it is made clear that you have to hurry up and push forward as fast as possible. If they do catch up and start killing allies, the mission can be rightfully considered a failure. Whether they do that right that at the spawn point or further in is indeed trivial.

But they don't stop being troublesome just because they are where you are probably not going to be. It still means that the outcome of the scenario is based on luck because there is no guarantee that you are progressing in that fashion. A gamble with good odds is still a gamble. You will still get occasionally unlucky and have someone die despite making no wrong move based on the available information. Not to mention that since you don't know where and when the reinforcements show up, you might either progress to slowly or rush right into them specifically because you try to avoid them in the first place.

And even if there is a warning, you don't know what you are dealing with and never when exactly they are going to show up. Units go up to 12 move in this game and might be unrestricted by terrain. Unless you are already in range, seizing a spawn point or staying safely away from them requires both of these informations down to a single turn. Everything else results in a gamble.

Plus, what excuse is there for the mechanic on a fundamental level? Even if they do spawn far away, there would be no difference between a reinforcement that instantly moves but probably can't reach the player and a reinforcement that spawns one turn earlier but probably can't be taken out by the player before it moves. Except one of these things could still potentially end in a cheap death on the side of the player which is a lot worse then the reverse. So why have it outside of a few special occasions?

Edited March 21, 2014 by BrightBow

[PKL]

By the logic youre using here, non-instantly moving reinforcements are just as bad as instantly moving ones. The reason why the distance to your units matters is because they dont instantly kill one of your units and they serve pretty much as a warning. And come on, really? You don't know where any of them are or what will appear? Really? Fooooorts. I mentioned the only ones that can be considered cheap in either of the most recent games. The reason I prefer this type of reinforcements (and why IS probably does too) is because the other type of reinforcements are useless. They don't ever do anything or threaten the player enough. They can just instantly be picked off in the following turn and done.

[BrightBow]

By the logic youre using here, non-instantly moving reinforcements are just as bad as instantly moving ones. The reason why the distance to your units matters is because they dont instantly kill one of your units and they serve pretty much as a warning. And come on, really? You don't know where any of them are or what will appear? Really? Fooooorts. I mentioned the only ones that can be considered cheap in either of the most recent games. The reason I prefer this type of reinforcements (and why IS probably does too) is because the other type of reinforcements are useless. They don't ever do anything or threaten the player enough. They can just instantly be picked off in the following turn and done.

Yes, you don't know where they are. They don't always spawn at all forts from the same time, nor do they necessary have to spawn there. They could spawn from any edge of the screen or even teleport right into it.

And it doesn't matter how often that happens. That only matters if you know that all in advance. But the mere fact that the player knows that those kind of cheapshots are deployed means that he can't be certain that it won't be pulled on other maps too.

And since you don't know when they spawn, effectively the only way to stay save would be to always stay away 13 tiles from every fort, possible waiting for a dozen turns just in case the computer might decide to spawn something after all. Seizing them can't be safely done since something with more move, higher stats and effective weaponry might always show up.

And the advantages of these kind of reinforcements could be used by simply giving the player all the information in advance. The stats and weaponry from the enemies kept in reserve and the exact turn they show up.

Edited March 21, 2014 by BrightBow

[Thor Odinson]

You guys are conveniently looking at the only spawns that are troublesome. There's a lot more ambush spawns they have gotten right than the ones they've gotten wrong in the series:

Well yes that's why there's the word "sometimes" in the title not "always"

[X-Naut]

Yes, you don't know where they are. They don't always spawn at all forts from the same time, nor do they necessary have to spawn there. They could spawn from any edge of the screen or even teleport right into it.

And it doesn't matter how often that happens. The mere fact that the player knows that those kind of cheapshots are deployed means that he can't be certain that it won't be pulled on other maps too.

And since you don't know when they spawn, effectively the only way to stay save would be to always stay away 13 tiles from every fort, possible waiting for a dozen turns just in case the computer might decide to spawn something after all. Seizing them can't be safely done since something with more move, higher stats and effective weaponry might always show up.

And the advantages of these kind of reinforcements could be used by simply giving the player all the information in advance. The stats and weaponry from the enemies kept in reserve and the exact turn they show up.

You can get advance information on most of the reinforcements by playing a lower difficulty. It's the ones that are added in harder difficulties that are a problem, and they can be addressed in two ways:

1. Just make them extensions of existing groups.

2. Leave some of them as player phase spawns.

PKL's right in that ambush spawns (when properly done) contribute to the difficulty by letting them act. A lot of PP reinforcements are very easy to farm, especially when you attack from the right range. By moving the same turn they appear they can effectively punish a player who would think reinforcements are just free EXP.

And stats and equipment? Really? What kind of commander would ever give that much information to the enemy? Might as well throw in a turn-by-turn walkthrough to clear the chapter while you're at it!

[PKL]

Well yes that's why there's the word "sometimes" in the title not "always"

Yeah, I worded that poorly. It was more meant towards Brightbow and not everyone.

[Refa]

And stats and equipment? Really? What kind of commander would ever give that much information to the enemy? Might as well throw in a turn-by-turn walkthrough to clear the chapter while you're at it!

And yet you have stats and equipment for the enemies that already exist, characters on your side who tell you THEY DEFINITELY HAVE REINFORCEMENTS, and the fact that FE is in no way a realistic approximation of war. This is just bad justification to excuse the fact that IS didn't do things to make reinforcements well, better.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Refa

[X-Naut]

And yet you have stats and equipment for the enemies that already exist, characters on your side who tell you THEY DEFINITELY HAVE REINFORCEMENTS, and the fact that FE is in no way a realistic approximation of war. This is just bad justification to excuse the fact that IS didn't do things to make reinforcements well, better.

Looking back I sounded rather mocking there, and I apologize for that. But my point still stands that full transparency is asking for too much.

You can have advance notice from both sides, but there's only so much information you can get. Enemy types are definitely up there, location should be a given, stats should be around what you've been seeing, and in some cases you can get a grasp on equipment. But full transparency should not be necessary to handle them, nor should it always be expected. Heck, even the starting enemies aren't telling you everything by just being there; you don't know how or when they're going to move. A large part of the game is preparation, but a large part of preparation is filling in what you don't know.

[arvilino]

Chapter 13 has them forts and I'm pretty sure Henry hints at them. Due to how theyre made, they can get you by surprise though, especially since some of the spawns have longbows.

I've played that chapter recently, Henry(or more exactly he says the ravens said) tells you to keep an eye on the fortresses. All the reinforcements in that chapter come from the fortresses around the map.

[BrightBow]

Anyway, I don't have a good story in regards to instantly moving reinforcements right now but I think I do have a little one in regards to non-moving ones, if that is good enough.

It happened in FE8 Eirika mode chapter 15. Eprahim's group was moving up to Caellach to help out but since team Eirika did well enough on it's own, I figured Team Eprahim might as well start engaging Valter's group in the meantime, so I had them turn around half-way. Unfortunately the reinforcements in this chapter consisted out of a literal small army showing up in the south west and Eprahim ended up exactly in the middle of the group. With no notable help in range and failing to dodge a single attack, he didn't survive the enemy phase.

Edited March 21, 2014 by BrightBow

[Florete]

Ambush spawns will never be my preference, but they can be done appropriately, as Awakening mostly does.

What I really hate is when people argue that they "add to difficulty." Technically, yes, but it's often an unfair difficulty. FE6 was the worst about this in my experience, and is a main reason I dislike the game.

[Lord Glenn]

Let me pose a tangentially-related question: If all things were "fair" and ALL reinforcements (including NPC and Player) arrived on the same turn cycles (that is, if Enemies spawn at the end of their phase or the start of the Player Phase, then Player reinforcements spawn at the end of their phase or the start of Enemy Phase), would you really want your prospective allies showing up right before the enemies have a chance to slaughter them, or would you prefer that they appear on time with your own units? (I'm willing to guess the latter.)

Now, obviously, the game is tuned in such a way that enemies normally drastically outnumber the player and thus have an "edge" to compensate for being AI controlled and oft at lower levels than the player characters and it helps flip that advantage around if enemy reinforcements can't immediately help the enemy outside of extra body count. But, from a "fair" point of view, if one army (the players) has reinforcements during their turn, the other army should have the same privilege. Unless you're willing to compromise and let player reinforcements show up off-turn or have mixes of on-turn and off-turn reinforcements on maps...

Lest we forget, Fire Emblem (pre-Casual Mode) is predicated on permadeath (and the fallacy that players will stick with deaths that happen instead of restarting), so having situations that have an increased chance of causing that wouldn't be "out of character". (And, if playing Casual, then death doesn't matter.) It's still "bad gameplay design", but when has IS really ever been great at that in recent memory anyway?

Edited March 21, 2014 by Lord Glenn

[Florete]

It's still "bad gameplay design", but when has IS really ever been great at that in recent memory anyway?

Awakening, considering how it saved the series. Hey, it had to do something right to be so successful.

While your example may technically be worth considering, within the series it's pretty uncommon anyway. How often do you get mid-map allied reinforcements? If you get a new unit that joins you immediately, it's usually right at the start of the map. Otherwise, you're recruiting from another team.