Have your opinion of awakeing changed?

[ClassyWolf]

I can't take this thread seriously because of the Engrish in the title.

English isn't my native language so I'll probably make a few mistakes... and my first language (finnish) is fairly different from english when you consider that it's not related to it in any way (unlike most european languages).

[Tamanoir]

Well, it depends. I will be the first to says that if you compare Awakeining to Luminous Ark 2 (a game that I actually likes a lot), it's a timeless masterpiece, with strong and believable characters, and extremely tactfull. The fact that you don't fight the exact same boss 10 times is also a big plus. LA2 and FE:A are actually pretty equal fanservice-wise, all thing considered. FE:A has marriage and fanservice for both male and femmale, while LA2... well, it just throw all the male harem cliche at you one after another.

Because, Awakening doesn't have a discussion between Chrom in swimsuit and Frederick butt naked.

There's a difference between being an awfull FE game, and an axwfull game in general. While it may be the first (even the worst), I don't think it's the second.

[Duke of Dozel]

No matter what your opinion is:

Awakening > Shadow Dragon

[RJWalker]

No matter what your opinion is:

Awakening > Shadow Dragon

It's like you want me to start ranting.

[Duke of Dozel]

It's like you want me to start ranting.

You can't argue against fact

It was the one FE I couldn't get into.

[Galenforcer]

My like for Awakening is just fading the more I hear about it. At the time, I was all about it, gathering all the information and reading over everything about it. Nowadays, I can't really stand it because all discussion became Apotheosis Emblem: Galeforce.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Man i haven't posted on here in forever, mostly cause i got bored of posting and thought with Awakening's release, it'd motivate me to come back, little did i know after loving it on a first playthough, on a second run i found myself hating everything about it, which was so bad i didn't want to discuss this series for a whole year.

so has my opinion changed? yes it has, my opinion went from "i love this game" to "i hate this game" i can't even consider it a fire emblem because of all the removed features that FE's has, not to mention dumb'd down difficulty, plot, characters, maps, and skill system.

on another note, i most likely should change the last part of my signature, who else agrees or is it still accurate? granted i still might not post much here, but i don't want to be outdated, and this topic has made me realize i'm not as alone as i think with this game's opinion, so i still have a place in this fandom, i honestly can't be any happier.

[Loki Laufeyson]

No matter what your opinion is:

Awakening > Shadow Dragon

So much. And it has nothing to do with the plot either.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i don't know, i've actually beaten shadow dragon at least 4 times and it hasn't gotten old for me.

on the otherhand, awakening i can't even be bothered to start up a third playthough, ok i actually do have one, but i haven't played it in months and its on like chapter 3 or something

[BANRYU]

I'd again like to point out this game wasn't made for you. It was made with the idea in mind to be a cash grab. Second, I don't know where this idea of Awakening pushing the story to the side came from, except for the fact that almost literally every FE game does this. Teenagers conquering the world may have been innovative at one time. But not so much now. Hundreds of these exist now. There are exceptions of course, as with anything, but for the most part, FE is a game series with horrible cliched stories with interesting characters and gameplay.

. . .

That being said, I'm not happy with some of ways, most of the ways, Awakening turned out, not because it ruined a series of flawless, peerless, strategy games with concise and concrete storytelling, that "makes me want to cry," but because FE is a good example of NIntendo product stagnation.

Okay, but

from my perspective, we're not saying different things here. I understand and agree that Awakening is total product stagnation as far as the FE series goes, but I'm mostly trying to analyze why (granted, I did it in a pretty tired ranty manner so I can understand why it would come across as me jabbering about my opinion). I really was trying to be objective about the flaws in the game design, though. Some of the problems with Awakening (like the continuity errors and the fact that the supports overshadow the story) I don't really care about (because, for instance, I actually like the supports).

Second, being able to grind is not a criticism I usually accept for any product because the game doesn't force you to do it. That's a choice you made on your own, knowing full well what you were doing. Blame yourself. That's a criticism of you. If you think a game should tell you not to do something because you lack the strength to not use the riekling boxes, or even worse, the dlc you purchased seperately, twice knowing what it does, I really don't know what to say.

Third

Again, that's how FE has been for the most part. That is a series, not an Awakening problem. As for the free-roaming map, it's hardly free-roaming. How exactly are the useless, gray circles distracting you from the active, red ones? You're making a much bigger deal out of something that means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme.

This comes down to the principle of dominant strategy in game design, which dictates that a player will always use the most optimal solution that the designer allows him/her to use. Obviously no one forces you to grind, and personally I don't grind in normal runs, but it's a matter of the theoretical 'if they can, they will'. If the designers didn't want us to use Reeking Boxes, they shouldn't have put them in the game, and why should I care if you think it takes 'strength' not to use them? They're there, so why shouldn't I use them? It's just a basic principle of game design.

It's like Megaman 2 without using the Metal Blade. Sure, I could do that if I want a challenge out of the game, but the average player is just going to use it because it destroys everything, and because they can.

Anyway the problem isn't that 'grinding is a possibility', that'd just be stupid, so obviously I did a poor job of explaining myself. The problem is that you can so easily grind so high that the difficulty level becomes nonexistent. Grinding in a game like Pokemon is boring, but it takes much, much longer than veteran+EP-tanking a couple of Risen encounters to make the MU give zero shits about anything until after the endgame.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I KNOW this was deliberate; IS obviously self-sabotaged the difficulty of a notoriously-difficult (for beginners, anyway) series in order to make it appeal to the masses. I get that. It doesn't mean the game wasn't worse than it could have been as a result.

The map is actually the real problem here because it facilitates easy grinding while the plot sits on its ass and waits for you to come back to it, 30 levels and 2-3 reclassings later. I don't really have a problem with the map at all except to say that it shouldn't have been available until postgame.

Isn't one of the biggest criticisms of Sacred Stones that it's too easy? Isn't one of the reasons that it's too easy is because you can choose to hold off the plot for grinding exp in the Tower of Valni? (or wherever else, that was just the place I used to grind)

Anyway, I still don't know that I'm really explaining myself properly, I probably did a clearer job talking about these things in my dA review of Awakening. Hooray for shameless plugs but whatever it's not like these things haven't been said a million times before anyway

Edited April 19, 2014 by BANRYU

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

speaking of sacred stones, I'm still not sure why i enjoy it more then awakening, i mean its my opinion but i can't trace why when it has similar problems with awakening.

i guess i'd put Gaiden here too, but grinding in gaiden is a pain unless you use Elite mode, which is kinda a cheat code in how you access it.

[Loki Laufeyson]

i don't know, i've actually beaten shadow dragon at least 4 times and it hasn't gotten old for me.

on the otherhand, awakening i can't even be bothered to start up a third playthough, ok i actually do have one, but i haven't played it in months and its on like chapter 3 or something

Seriously though, the Shadow Dragon < Awakening thing is that sales dont lie. Awakening is also more critically successful. If a game is visually appealing and damn fun, its gonna sell i guess.

Ok theres a slight argument about grinding, and i think people who fault games like FE8 and Awakening for that need to remember that grinding is optional. So what if its there, you dont need to use it.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

if that's the case then isn't awakening the 'best" game in the series(i might be wrong but isn't it the best selling one?), and if that's also "true" then isn't it unfair to compare the two?

[BANRYU]

Look you guys, I don't know how many ways I can keep saying this... I don't grind because I prefer to play the game without it, but OTHER people who don't know better WILL, and it's completely valid to criticize the game for that. It's basic game design.

[Czar_Yoshi]

speaking of sacred stones, I'm still not sure why i enjoy it more then awakening, i mean its my opinion but i can't trace why when it has similar problems with awakening.

It's probably Lyon. Awakening is badly lacking in the villain department, SS's story was nothing special but Lyon stood out in it as one of the best villains in the series. Especially if you've played through both Eirika and Ephraim's routes.

As for the free-roaming map, it's hardly free-roaming. How exactly are the useless, gray circles distracting you from the active, red ones? You're making a much bigger deal out of something that means pretty much nothing in the grand scheme.

Useless gray circles aren't a problem. Problems start when the game opens up a flashy new paralogue that has absolutely nothing to do with the main plot while Chrom and co. are supposed to be fleeing for their lives from Plegia. It's bad enough to be able to put off fleeing from Plegia to trash some bandits in the far reaches of Ferox, but the game actually encourages you to do it by putting a Paralogue right there. If this were Blazing Sword where paralogues are only accessible at one point and if you miss them, they can't be redone, would it make any sense at all to have Eliwood take a break from looking for his father on Valor to go hunt bandits in Etruria without any acknowledgement of the rest of the story? SS had the decency to disable the map when there was something going on that can't be ignored, such as an ambush by Valter.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

yeah you have a point, Lyon was a much better villian then i remembered him being on my second and so on runs of the game.

I'm impressed with how different he is in both routes, yet still manages to be an good villain just for different reasons.

none of the awakening villians i think can match him in sympathy or motivations, while still being an actual villain.

[BANRYU]

Useless gray circles aren't a problem. Problems start when the game opens up a flashy new paralogue that has absolutely nothing to do with the main plot while Chrom and co. are supposed to be fleeing for their lives from Plegia. It's bad enough to be able to put off fleeing from Plegia to trash some bandits in the far reaches of Ferox, but the game actually encourages you to do it by putting a Paralogue right there. If this were Blazing Sword where paralogues are only accessible at one point and if you miss them, they can't be redone, would it make any sense at all to have Eliwood take a break from looking for his father on Valor to go hunt bandits in Etruria without any acknowledgement of the rest of the story? SS had the decency to disable the map when there was something going on that can't be ignored, such as an ambush by Valter.

Adding to this, the example I gave in my review of Awakening was the voyage to Valm-- after you sail across the ocean between Ylisse and Valm, stage your brilliantly homicidal tactics to cripple the Valmese fleet, and capture the port, you can just as easily sail back and spend some time whaling on enemy zombies before heading out to war-- the enemy troops will sit pretty and patient waiting for you to come back.

This is why even if Awakening had the best-written story in the franchise, the way the map is implemented completely undermines the story and sucks all urgency and tension out of it. If the map was only available in the postgame, or hell, even if it took the SS route and made certain access to previous areas (like Ylisse once you're in Valm) or map movement inaccessible sometimes, that would have been a pretty straightforward improvement.

But again, the game was designed that way for a reason. *shrug* The same reason that nonsense like the freakin' golden tanuki suit and other stupid shit like that exists in recent nintendo games I mean nintendo, I love you guys, but damn

Edited April 19, 2014 by BANRYU

[Czar_Yoshi]

Maribelle has been kidnapped and Chrom is supposed to be Emmeryn's bodyguard while she tries to negotiate her release, but he goes the wrong way and beats up bandits on an island in the southeast, where he conscripts a villager to help him fight the Plegians, knowing full well that trained villagers get really strong really fast. He also stops to fight some random zombies to train the said villager. After saving Maribelle, he finds this random island to the south with an Outrealm Gate where he spends time sacking zombies for lots of gold and exp, and Validar intelligently decides to try to assassinate Emmeryn just after he gets back all pumped up on forges, rather than while he was still gone. Phila convinces Emmeryn that it will be safer to hide somewhere and Chrom is assigned to be her escort, but he decides to go smash some Outrealm Marths and Ikes to get tons of items instead. Despite the fact that the bad guys clearly don't know about/can't use this place, Chrom decides not to make the most of the trip by leaving Emmeryn in safety and instead heads straight back the way he came, without even letting her train up on all the goodies for self-protection first- and guess what, she gets kidnapped after doing yet another about-face. Instead of going to save her, Chrom hikes all the way back to Ferox to fight some zombies in the arena, despite the fact that the place is crawling with competent warriors already, never mind how the zombies actually got in the arena in the first place. After Chrom fails to rescue Emmeryn, no doubt because he was too slow due to the unexpected detour, he somehow teleports to the Ferox countryside and cheerily helps out some merchants, before realizing that his sister has been killed and hiking back to Plegia so Basilio's rescue convoy can be put to use, and then starts moping. Wait, no, first he stops at Plegia Castle to go shopping. On his way to the final battle with Gangrel, he realizes that he's spent the entire game hanging out with Avatar-M and doesn't know a single eligible woman's name. To fix this, he uses that Outrealm Gate again and takes everyone to a beach resort to figure out who he wants to propose to after the next battle, because obviously they can't refuse the prince even if they barely know him.

I could go on, but that's essentially how the world map makes the story look at 1:30 in the morning. Please forgive any rambling and run-on sentences.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[RJWalker]

Seriously though, the Shadow Dragon < Awakening thing is that sales dont lie. Awakening is also more critically successful. If a game is visually appealing and damn fun, its gonna sell i guess.

Ok theres a slight argument about grinding, and i think people who fault games like FE8 and Awakening for that need to remember that grinding is optional. So what if its there, you dont need to use it.

Because high sales = high quality amirite?

Call of Duty greatest video game series ever. Fact.

I get what you're saying. There's a good reason why Awakening sold so much but you could have worded that better.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[arvilino]

But again, the game was designed that way for a reason. *shrug* The same reason that nonsense like the freakin' golden tanuki suit and other stupid shit like that exists in recent nintendo games I mean nintendo, I love you guys, but damn

Wouldn't characters like Marcus, Pent, Seth,etc. be the equivalent of the golden tanuki suit? These are things that give you an instant overwhelming advantage mostly intended to allow the newer players to overcome the game.

Edited April 19, 2014 by arvilino

[BANRYU]

Wouldn't characters like Marcus, Pent, Seth,etc. be the equivalent of the golden tanuki suit? These are things that give you an instant overwhelming advantage mostly intended to allow the newer players to overcome the game.

No. Because they don't beat the game for you. They're a crutch early on to help beginner players get past the first few levels (or the later levels in the case of Pent) without being overwhelmed, but if you overuse them, your other units will end up too weak to carry their own weight. (Which is exactly what happened to me in my first run of FE7 as a noob to the series)

The difference is that there is an opportunity cost involved in using the Jeigans, as opposed to the ability to endlessly and easily grind units (namely your MU because of Veteran, who can then easily solo the game) like you can in Awakening, at the cost of nothing but the enjoyment you might have otherwise gleaned from conquering an actual challenge.

Edited April 19, 2014 by BANRYU

[arvilino]

No. Because they don't beat the game for you. They're a crutch early on to help beginner players get past the first few levels without being overwhelmed, but if you overuse them, your other units end up too weak to carry their own weight. The difference is that there is an opportunity cost involved in using the Jeigans, as opposed to the ability to endlessly and easily grind units (namely your MU because of Veteran, who can then easily solo the game) like you can in Awakening.

But the Golden Tanuki suit does not beat the game for you, it's still possible to die from platforming deaths(bottomless pits).

Also it's been known for years that "overuse" of the early pre-promotes rendering the rest of your units too weak is just not true. Seth for example can solo Sacred Stones and the back up of other pre-promotes and special units like Duessel, Saleh and Myrrh is far more than enough to trivialize even most of Hard Mode(no grinding).

They can do instantly on the hardest difficulty mode of their games what you're criticizing a character in Awakening for being able to do after grinding.

Edited April 19, 2014 by arvilino

[Jave]

Try beating Super Mario 3D World using only the Golden Tanuki. See how far you get before you hit a roadblock.

[BANRYU]

But the Golden Tanuki suit does not beat the game for you, it's still possible to die from platforming deaths(bottomless pits).

Also it's been known for years that "overuse" of the early pre-promotes rendering the rest of your units too weak is just not true. Seth for example can solo Sacred Stones and the back up of other pre-promotes and special units like Duessel, Saleh and Myrrh is far more than enough to trivialize even most of Hard Mode(no grinding).

They can do instantly on the hardest difficulty mode of their games what you're criticizing a character in Awakening for being able to do after grinding.

LOL well incidentally I have a similar gripe with Sacred Stones, but that's another discussion.

Are the SS Seth runs you're referring to easily done by new players, or are they a thing that experienced/expert players do to prove they can? If it's the latter then this is a moot point, because I'm talking about the general consumption of the game by average players. Hardcore FE players like the ones found on SF are by far the minority among the FE fanbase or potential target market.

But if a new player to the game/franchise can pick up Sacred Stones and do a Hard Mode run with prepremotes with no trouble (which honestly wouldn't surprise me), then point conceded.

AS for the Golden Tanuki thing...

That you can still die in pits with the suit is also beside the point. The point is that it eliminates all but the simplest obstacles for a player so that the crying little babies Nintendo apparently thinks are its primary market can beat pretty much any level no matter the difficulty. (Frankly I'm not sure why there's any disagreement on the topic of the suit specifically; it's pretty straightforwardly a highly patronizing tool to eliminate difficulty for whiny players.)

^{((BTW I haven't played Mario 3D World so I can't comment on that game; I'm just going on what I know from Mario 3D Land.))}

Obviously Fire Emblem is too complex for any such aforementioned 'babies', even Awakening, but Awakening DOES baby its players in a comparable fashion to that of the golden tanuki.

Edited April 19, 2014 by BANRYU

[Jave]

Only the first 8 worlds in Super Mario 3D Land allow you to use the special suits. The latter 8 worlds don't have it at all.

Not to mention you have to beat every level normally if you want to actually 100% the game.