Timely Rain Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I read those monks were not neccesarily innocent. And besides the hongan-ji were a complete pain to Nobunaga, so he didn't just eliminate them for the sake of eliminating them, it was a struggle that lasted 10 years. And yes, Kenshin's and Shingen's deaths were sudden, but it was normal to die at that age, I don't think he had any involvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Yeah, between that and the Ikko-Ikki, I'd hardly call it a massacre of innocents. Not all of them anyway. He most likely didn't, though my point was that at the time the circumstances (timing, causes, and a lack of understanding) caused rumors of possible involvement by Nobunaga, including that he made pacts with demons (doesn't help he himself didn't quite deny the Demon King thing and sort of encouraged it), were already painting a view of him that carried itself out for centuries. Even today it's not uncommon for fictional Nobunaga to be portrayed as having ties with demons or being an actual one himself, for example. Edited March 12, 2015 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Considering his role in Conquest, I highly doubt Nobunaga is in the same camp as Ghetsis... No, most Pokemon villains are purely evil. Nobunaga is far too complex for a Pokemon game. I read those monks were not neccesarily innocent. And besides the hongan-ji were a complete pain to Nobunaga, so he didn't just eliminate them for the sake of eliminating them, it was a struggle that lasted 10 years. And yes, Kenshin's and Shingen's deaths were sudden, but it was normal to die at that age, I don't think he had any involvement. I don't exactly see the issue with killing enemy commanders. Sure assassinating them is probably against Bushido but who gives a fuck about Bushido, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 He most likely didn't, though my point was that at the time the circumstances (timing, causes, and a lack of understanding) caused rumors of possible involvement by Nobunaga, including that he made pacts with demons (doesn't help he himself didn't quite deny the Demon King thing and sort of encouraged it), were already painting a view of him that carried itself out for centuries. Even today it's not uncommon for fictional Nobunaga to be portrayed as having ties with demons or being an actual one himself, for example. If I recall correctly he was pretty eccentric and probably used the Demon King moniker as intimidation, what kind of morale loss would that be to the common troops of his foes? Oh yeah marching against the DEMON KING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I don't exactly see the issue with killing enemy commanders. Sure assassinating them is probably against Bushido but who gives a fuck about Bushido, anyway? Considering Bushido was a nationalistic invention of the early 20th century, I doubt it mattered that much back then either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Considering Bushido was a nationalistic invention of the early 20th century, I doubt it mattered that much back then either. Uh, no it wasn't. Bushido was the Samurai code of honor that was abandoned by the Meiji government. It was brought back by the militarists. Speaking of Meiji, other overrated figures are every Samurai alive during the Meiji Restoration. Seriously, they were reactionary shitbags trying to preserve their power against a progressive ruler, and films like The Last Samurai treat them as heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Uh, no it wasn't. Bushido was the Samurai code of honor that was abandoned by the Meiji government. It was brought back by the militarists. Speaking of Meiji, other overrated figures are every Samurai alive during the Meiji Restoration. Seriously, they were reactionary shitbags trying to preserve their power against a progressive ruler, and films like The Last Samurai treat them as heroes. Really? Because long ago I had once read that "Bushido" (or at least as how we know it) was actually a more recent invention. Or at least, not before the Tokugawa Shogunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Really? Because long ago I had once read that "Bushido" (or at least as how we know it) was actually a more recent invention. Or at least, not before the Tokugawa Shogunate. That's correct. Though it existed in some form prior to the period of sakoku that followed the unification of Japan, it was never codified until that period. Although to be fair, 1600 is not a recent invention haha. And Nobunaga gets plenty of hate. I'd argue that most daimyou of that time don't receive enough though, if only because sengoku jidai Japan would make Game of Thrones characters blush at the kind of insanity they would pull for power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timely Rain Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 And Nobunaga gets plenty of hate. I'd argue that most daimyou of that time don't receive enough though, if only because sengoku jidai Japan would make Game of Thrones characters blush at the kind of insanity they would pull for power. Yeah, you're right. If Nobunaga is so evil and cruel I don't know what adjectives will be used to describe Matsunaga Hisahide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 That's correct. Though it existed in some form prior to the period of sakoku that followed the unification of Japan, it was never codified until that period. Although to be fair, 1600 is not a recent invention haha. Well, considering that it can be traced all the way back to the 1100's and the like, the 17th century is recent in comparison, heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Funny, I happened on an interesting (if opinionated, unabashedly pro-Obunaga and maybe less-than-super-rigorously-cited) perspective which claimed that the Japanese Buddhist warrior monks were such a malign influence in general, being gangsters, squatters and in effect unabashed protection racketeers towards every ruler out there up to the daimyos, shoguns, emperors and beyond over hundreds of years, that what Nobunaga did was likely on the whole both entirely necessary to truly gain control over Japan (the ethicality of that goal, and how he did it in general, momentarily put aside for the sake of arguing his Great Man status), and even a damn good thing that had been a long time coming. (enthusiasm in phrasing there not mine) Not that I'm in a position to make a judgement on any of it of course, but I sure went a long time without hearing any side of it that was strictly anti-monk there. Pity the ideas were either lost in translation or just nobody mentioning it to me for so long, I think it makes both Nobunaga and the situation a good bit more interesting. Edited March 13, 2015 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah, "during the Tokugawa Shogunate" is not in the 20th century, though Imperial Japan definitely did use Bushido to motivate their soldiers. And, for all of Imperial Japan's atrocities, they were still better than the Shogunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philax Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 After reading through this topic, I'm surprised no one has said Valdimir Lenin. He was a brilliant man and russia's economy thrived under his NEP. He pulled Russia out of WW1(which was going horribly for Russia) and saved thousands of Russian lives by doing so. He also made progress in Universal healthcare, free education, women's civil rights, and legalized homosexuality. He wanted to make sure all of Russia had electricity to help unite people and erase country and town prejudice. I'm not denying that under his regime many "anti-statists" were imprisoned, but overall, I think Lenin was a good leader who gets a lot of flak from other nations(mainly US) for starting the Soviet Union. I can only think what would have happened if he had more time before his untimely death and Stalin's takeover. People also don't realize that, while Lenin was an atheist, he did allow some degree of religious tolerance in the Soviet Union, and in fact actually increased toleration (in comparison to the tsars, who persecuted anyone who wasn't Russian Orthodox. Despite what American textbooks say, it wasn't just Jews who the tsars persecuted - Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims were persecuted too). It wasn't until Stalin that mass persecution of non-atheists started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 It is a common misconception that Lenin wasn't dictatorial. Despite all of what you mentioned, he did launch a violent revolution, and he has a LOT of blood on his hands from the Russian Civil War. Look up the "Red Terror" campaigns, which were essentially Lenin's fault and were some of the worst atrocities committed by a nation at that point. He ordered the deaths of countless people for being nobles (not even going to get into what he did to the Romanovs) and he and Trotsky actually took the families of Russian officers hostage (a war crime) to get their allegiance. I'd say that the flak Lenin gets is justified, though I am a bit biased in favor of the Romanovs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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