Magical CC Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Pretty self explanatory, really. So. Genghis Khan, in my mind, was a hero. In an age where burning heretics at the stake was commonplace, he brought equality for women, freedom of speech, and abolition of the lands he conquered to all of Asia. He opposed slavery, only tortured those who had it coming, and respected diplomatic immunity. And yet, he is viewed as a brutal tyrant, because all non-Christians are obviously the spawn of the devil. In the mideaval times, you did not change the world for better or for worse without getting your hands dirty. And yes, I did steal that from Attack on Titan. Equality for women? Not when he is the one who actually needs to learn about that. Abolition of the land? What the hell? Only tortured those who had it coming? Dont make me laugh. Sure, Khan is good leader and a capable tactician. He also allowed multi religions and race equality but that's about it. He's truly a brutal tyrant, you cant deny that. His actions and decisions are truly savage and totally unacceptable by any moral system. He is not only being viewed so by the Christians but also by non-Christians as well, such as most Asian countries and even by the Muslim. He didnt fight to change to the world of anything as awesome that you or some historical fanboy call him. And yes, you did read too much AoT. I hate it when historial figures get so much hate for no reason but I despite it when historical figures get so much love for no reason. It's history, you cant get emotion or personal belief get over the facts. Edited April 4, 2014 by Char Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiodi Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Again, Bush's not being the only person responsible for post-9/11 U.S. aggression doesn't mean he is absolved of it, because behind it or not he pushed for and allowed much of it himself. Just to be explicit about it, yes, any president can only do so much, because the position doesn't actually have quite as much power as the title "leader of the free world" entails, on either an international or domestic scale, but he was easily the posterboy for a lot of things that have left shit still on our plate, and he's never shown much regret for it. Sure, not saying he should be absolved or anything. Just saying people should really put things into perspective. That includes the Republicans treating Obama like the left's George W Bush and the left treating Obama like the new Jesus Christ. I mean shit, how many liberals defending Obama on the drone strike bullshit would be defending GWB? I really wish people were more about believing in something rather than believing in the label they have chosen's "beliefs". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 IMO, Bush Jr. was a president who probably was really trying his best to do the best thing for America this is meaningless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 It's not that Hitler is hated too much, it's just that others are hated too little. In my opinion, blind hatred does not accomplish anything useful, save for a false sense of superiority. Thus, I believe that everyone gets too much hate - I'd rather these people and their motivations be turned into lessons, so that everyone else can learn from them, and not repeat the same mistakes. If history is any indication. . .we need to study more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 In my opinion, blind hatred does not accomplish anything useful, save for a false sense of superiority. Thus, I believe that everyone gets too much hate - I'd rather these people and their motivations be turned into lessons, so that everyone else can learn from them, and not repeat the same mistakes. If history is any indication. . .we need to study more. Who said this was blind hatred? Hate for Hitler is what motivates us to improve our racist tendencies. What else is going to motivate us to start giving, for example, black people rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 You're confusing two things that, while not mutually exclusive, are also not ultimately harmonious. Hate for a person, if it is a motivator for anything, is to be dissimilar to them. The Russians hated Hitler just as much as the Americans but their cultural and political views are in practical opposition. Even from a purely human rights standpoint worldwide hate for Hitler hasn't really done anything at all. Like, segregation still existed decades after WWII ended. How did hating him help our racist tendencies again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Sure, not saying he should be absolved or anything. Just saying people should really put things into perspective. That includes the Republicans treating Obama like the left's George W Bush and the left treating Obama like the new Jesus Christ. I mean shit, how many liberals defending Obama on the drone strike bullshit would be defending GWB? I really wish people were more about believing in something rather than believing in the label they have chosen's "beliefs". I'll agree to a good bit of that in spirit, yeah. Just for the record, Obama has done (and does) things that scare me, and there are indeed issues that seem to get a lot of partisan divides that see the rep/dem sides shift depending on who's in office, like the drones. And it does frustrate me (doing some assuming here about causes-and-effects) that partisan divides are so bad that a good lot of dems either halfheartedly (in my eyes) support drone strikes as Obama has used them, or won't really put that much effort into speaking out about them, for some kind of fear of toeing a party line (or whatever). But I don't think Obama and Bush make for a really apt "we are not so different, you and I" kind of comparison, and I think I'd make some important distinctions about the political climates they work(ed) in. I'll.. shit, I might have to talk about it some other time, though /lazy exit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Equality for women? Not when he is the one who actually needs to learn about that. Abolition of the land? What the hell? Only tortured those who had it coming? Dont make me laugh. Sure, Khan is good leader and a capable tactician. He also allowed multi religions and race equality but that's about it. He's truly a brutal tyrant, you cant deny that. His actions and decisions are truly savage and totally unacceptable by any moral system. He is not only being viewed so by the Christians but also by non-Christians as well, such as most Asian countries and even by the Muslim. He didnt fight to change to the world of anything as awesome that you or some historical fanboy call him. And yes, you did read too much AoT. I hate it when historial figures get so much hate for no reason but I despite it when historical figures get so much love for no reason. It's history, you cant get emotion or personal belief get over the facts. Equality for women is a bit of a stretch, but he did make the Mongol Empire pretty much the best place in the world to be a woman. Look it up. "That's about it?" The United States of America is still getting around to race equality, and Genghis Khan had it in the Middle Ages. That is kind of a big deal. By any moral system? What about the moral system that said it was okay to torture Jews to death that was practiced across most of Europe? Or the system practiced by the Aztecs where they committed horrific acts of human sacrifice on innocent people? Or the one practiced by Arabia, where women were only good as bartering tools to secure political alliances. About the torture, one of the many complaints about Genghis is that he poured molten metal down the throats of those he captured. The only ones he did that too were the Turks, and that was because they had done the same thing to Mongol soldiers that they captured. While I do not deny that the tactics he used were terrible, his rule was no worse than any other average monarch of the age. In fact, I would say it was better than most. I am not trying to paint Genghis as some heroic messiah, saving humanity from themselves. However, most if not all of the good things he did go unrecognized, and that is unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Even from a purely human rights standpoint worldwide hate for Hitler hasn't really done anything at all. i doubt that you can defend this claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 You're confusing two things that, while not mutually exclusive, are also not ultimately harmonious. Hate for a person, if it is a motivator for anything, is to be dissimilar to them. The Russians hated Hitler just as much as the Americans but their cultural and political views are in practical opposition. Even from a purely human rights standpoint worldwide hate for Hitler hasn't really done anything at all. Like, segregation still existed decades after WWII ended. How did hating him help our racist tendencies again? Do you realize that you're just supporting my argument? It's a good thing to want to not be like Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 Do you realize that you're just supporting my argument? It's a good thing to want to not be like Hitler. I am gonna have to agree with Chiki on this. Hatred of Hitler was one of the chief motivators for decolonization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Who said this was blind hatred? Hate for Hitler is what motivates us to improve our racist tendencies. What else is going to motivate us to start giving, for example, black people rights? Why not compassion? Before you're a (gender)/(race)/(other stereotype), you're a person, and that deserves some value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Why not compassion? Before you're a (gender)/(race)/(other stereotype), you're a person, and that deserves some value.Many racists in the past actually didn't think that black people were persons. Some scientists thought they were descended from gorillas.http://graduate.engl.virginia.edu/enec981/dictionary/03humeK1.html People generally tend to look down on others who don't look like them at first glance. That's the case with black, Asian and even ginger people. Edited April 5, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 Why not compassion? Before you're a (gender)/(race)/(other stereotype), you're a person, and that deserves some value. Then please, explain slavery, war, and tyranny if people are compassionate. People are first and formost interested in power, and will do anything to get it, compassion be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Many racists in the past actually didn't think that black people were persons. Some scientists thought they were descended from gorillas. http://graduate.engl.virginia.edu/enec981/dictionary/03humeK1.html People generally tend to look down on others who don't look like them at first glance. That's the case with black, Asian and even ginger people. Hearts and minds can be changed - otherwise, stuff like interracial marriages would still be illegal (IIRC my history correctly). The change may not be immediate, but it can be done. I can't force anyone but myself to do it, but if I'm willing to try, then that's one less person who's hostile to someone else for something that's out of their control. This is something that mostly everyone is capable of - whether or not they choose to exercise it is another matter. Then please, explain slavery, war, and tyranny if people are compassionate. People are first and formost interested in power, and will do anything to get it, compassion be damned. All of these put the person in question in front of others. If you walk through a forest with your eyes closed, you're going to bump into something sooner or later. This is what happens when you're unable or unwilling to look past yourself, and it's what I'd expect out of a child (or someone who has lowered activity in certain parts of the brain). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Hearts and minds can be changed - otherwise, stuff like interracial marriages would still be illegal (IIRC my history correctly). The change may not be immediate, but it can be done. I can't force anyone but myself to do it, but if I'm willing to try, then that's one less person who's hostile to someone else for something that's out of their control. This is something that mostly everyone is capable of - whether or not they choose to exercise it is another matter. Yes, by hate for people like Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Yes, by hate for people like Hitler. Hatred is a false change - you're only setting yourself up to repeat the cycle, by putting your own moral code before his. I think he's the perfect example of why racism is bad, but all I can do is shake my head. He couldn't see the people behind their race, and that motivation caused so many problems. . .yet despite all of this, racism still exists. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Hatred is a false change - you're only setting yourself up to repeat the cycle, by putting your own moral code before his. I think he's the perfect example of why racism is bad, but all I can do is shake my head. He couldn't see the people behind their race, and that motivation caused so many problems. . .yet despite all of this, racism still exists. . . This isn't Naruto. Anime morals don't apply to real life. There is no "cycle of hatred" or any other fictional crap like that. Racism isn't really a big problem anymore, and we probably have Hitler to thank for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Hearts and minds can be changed - what makes you think this is true? there is much to suggest that the minds of grown people are recalcitrant to change even when confronted with challenging evidence. if you've constructed an internally consistent (at least, to yourself) worldview, ~peace and love~ aren't going to change that. you're using a lot of words to say very little. and you didn't even address chiki's point. Racism isn't really a big problem anymore, and we probably have Hitler to thank for that. only in the western world. Edited April 5, 2014 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 we probably have Hitler to thank for that. I have a problem with this. We don't have Hitler to 'thank' for anything. He killed a LOT of people, and it wasn't to put an end to racism. Racism being less of a problem many years later is a fortunate side effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 This isn't Naruto. Anime morals don't apply to real life. There is no "cycle of hatred" or any other fictional crap like that. It exists, in something as small as personal religious/domestic issues to something as big as discriminatory policies. Hatred doesn't breed understanding, it only breeds more of itself. This isn't something that can be observed as long as you're in the cycle. Hatred is also a choice, and I will leave it at that. While I could say more, it will only serve to reinforce certain views, none of which I feel warrant it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Racism isn't really a big problem anymore, and we probably have Hitler to thank for that. holy shit lmao sometimes i can't even tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Hatred is also a choice, and I will leave it at that. no it's not. i can no more choose to like something that i hate than i can choose to believe in something that i don't think exists. Hatred doesn't breed understanding, it only breeds more of itself. this is a false dichotomy. for example, the fact that i hate religious conservatives doesn't mean that i'm totally unable to empathize with them. Edited April 5, 2014 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Racism isn't really a big problem anymore, and we probably have Hitler to thank for that. Yeah it is. It's more subtle but it's still there. At times it's not even directly racism. It's discrimination based off of class, judgment based off of class, etc. But there still is a lot of racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Yeah it is. It's more subtle but it's still there. At times it's not even directly racism. It's discrimination based off of class, judgment based off of class, etc. But there still is a lot of racism. Come to Hawaii. Racism is alive, despite the diversity here. Can't speak for the rest of the US, as I haven't really stayed long enough elsewhere to draw any sort of meaningful conclusions. dondon - we're going off into tangent mode, but all I can do is disagree with you. At this point, continuing will only derail the thread further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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