Big NOCers - Game Over

[Conqueror]

With what I skimmed from Elieson's answer, I feel better about him. As he was one of the two bones of contention after I last logged off, I can now place a vote.

##Vote: Refa

Hey eclipse, while you're here, could you explain what you meant by the latter statement?

[eclipse]

Hey eclipse, while you're here, could you explain what you meant by the latter statement?

Okay~! I wanted one of Refa/Elieson to come back and Say Stuff. Both had votes on me, and I'd just responded to their points. I wanted a solid answer out of either of them to give me a better read on them. Elieson's answer made me feel better about him, which is why I voted Refa. I'm not a fan of the direction the Elieson/BBM thing is going, but I think Elieson's recent posts are okay (as in, not enough to convince me to switch my vote).

[charlie_]

Your Strege defense WIFOMs because you're bringing up how you can't interpret some of his reasons, then you yourself saying "I know I'm all over the place in this game". Your defense v Kaoz is just telling him that reading is good and sheeping is bad, but you don't appear to be applying any form of pressure or concern to it. Manix, well I can see that, but it doesn't make it any better.

What. That isn't WIFOM? I don't see how that reaction to Kaoz makes me scum, and I wasn't going to vote him to pressure him considering I had stronger suspicions so that point doesn't hold either.

And I really did develop a scumread on you because of one post. Is that a problem for me exclusively? Because other people have openly and bluntly stated that they flipped on my slot's read because of one post, and you're completely ignoring them.

One post shouldn't change one townread to your strongest scumread, especiallly when you have four of them. It just doesn't seem realistic at all.

That was your consolidation logic BUT you kept going. Your vote for Manix had that behind it, and that's pretty much it. The sentence below didn't explain why manix was scummy to you, but just rose questions. I still don't know your real stance on manix. You've bounced on and off and on and off with him, and it's just, all over the place. He represents a decent chunk of your attention, yet maintains a "he is scum, he isn't scum" cycle.

You seem to be missing the fact that arriving 30 minutes from deadline makes people rush? There's also the possibility that BBM didn't find Paperblade to be scummy at all, which would also be a perfectly legit reason

Read above; his back and forth at the beginning of the game looked off putting to me, and he's so back and forth with his reads regarding BIG POSTER MANIX, that it's hard to establish where he stands on a person who almost got lynched yesterphase. That, and his Conq hop rubs me the wrong way. Unless he had a serious reason other than that he just reeeeeeeally wanted a nolynch, I can find no reason to do that.

Paperblade, the flipped townie, literally said that they should have tried to do it because getting a lynch seemed impossible. This case feels incredibly forced to me.

Lynching Elieson is becoming increasingly appealing.

[Conqueror]

Okay, I'm reaching the point where the words are starting to blend in. I'm going to have to continue this tomorrow. Off the top of my head: don't want to lynch eclipse. I think Elie is misguided town, really.

Need to reread Manix/Refa/j00. And Strege. I saw that he backed off from his SB case, but if he just leaves that hanging and goes nowhere from that, well then. And want Kaoz to check in now that...yeah.

oh god this is comedy gold actually

raymond complains about me not caring who gets lynched and not reading why i find refa scummy (hint: it's there in my iso), then proceeds to 1) vote refa and 2) use similar reasons as me, while saying i don't have any. golden (read: that's pretty scummy)
also apparently raymond can make more posts about other people then promptly ignore me pretty much from then on. it looks like a suspicion park on an easy target. then add on the disproportionate aggression to me (and kind of against vhaltz/sb D1, see #160/#208) and i think there might be something here too.


i also can't tell what j00's actual scumreads are myself, besides me. and maybe refa but it looks like j00 is just taking potshots, from what i see. like it doesn't look like he's pushing refa with townie motivations.

How is j00 not pushing refa with "townie motivations?" Also, if you want to talk about taking potshots, that's what your jab at Raymond in the stuff I quoted looks like. I feel like the aggression charge you make against him really applies to you as well.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

Even if you make a point about how Manix and Raymond both refer to the same D1 refa posts, at least Raymond actually addresses the posts Refa has made since then.

[Conqueror]

Like, the start of D2 post Manix gave me about his Refa vote reasoning was about D1 stuff. That was fine. I mean it was a bit nitpicky, but okay, it was a start. But Refa's put out a bunch of other stuff since then, including some pretty questionable stuff (like the weird switch to Elieson). The fact the Manix didn't mention any of this (iirc), opting to push Refa for tonal reasons and the D1 stuff makes me feel he doesn't care about the case; he's not taking in new info trying to get a better read on Refa, etc., even though he's been commenting on the latest posts of other posters. Seems like you'd pay attention to the posts of the person you're voting foremost if you're actually trying to get a read on them.

[Kaoz]

Short response post.

@SB

Not gonna respond to your response since I think we both expressed our sides adequately? If you want me to reply anyway, lemme know.

@Elieson

You missed this (bottom half).

@eclipse

What was your read on me before it changed to null? And what about Bal's flip made you change your opinion? Also, are you currently scum reading anyone besides Refa?

@Conq

With Bal flipping town, I'm currently left with j00 as the person I have the most issues with. She unfortunately didn't do anything with my #426, so those feelings still apply, i.e. I'm gonna vote here for now.

##Vote: j00

Other than that, I feel like I should reevaluate my reads on Raymond and Refa and I guess gonna reread Strege depending on how motivated I feel.

Also @the people voting Manix/those that find him suspicious, could they please explain whether they don't believe his role, or whether they think it's his real role but a mafia one. If the former, should I out why I think it's real? If the latter, I'd like to know why the mafia would have a role like that.

Like, I dunno, maybe I'm relying on role spec too much here, but I can't really overlook it either.

More later. Just wanted to get this out for now.

[j00]

@Kaoz:

#144 at the bottom, Vhaltz didn't say that SB will get better, just that he has confidence in reading SB correctly over a longer period of time

for this part, you're right and I misinterpreted what he was saying.
My point was that SB and BBM had pretty much the same reasoning at the time, but he voted BBM because he expected SB to explain it later, even if BBM had more posts about the issue.

and then in #200 she says that Vhaltz assumes I'm town when no such thing was present in what she quoted.

Here Vhaltz decides to avoid you because he realises your weird behaviour makes sense if you're town, i.e he does assume you're town. He also says he wasn't scumreading you anymore, but not if he based that on your town meta or what.

eh, Kaoz has been waffly all game and sounds unconvinced even about his own scumreads, I understand that having a vote on someone looks better but if that was your only reason you're doing it for the sake of looking good, not because it helps focus your scumhunting. You voted SB without reading him properly, the votes on Bal and I was because of stuff we did a long time ago. You're voting me because I never answered the previous stuff properly, what do you think of my recent posts?

as for Manix role, all of my assumptions of his role is WIFOM, I can't really see the point of his role regardless of alignment (already discussed this in my previous posts) and I disagree with him ruling out role cop. Role cop is a pretty typical scum role and might not sway away an upcoming deadline lynch, which was his situation when he claimed.

I see you're ruling out role cop, and you don't really need to out your reasons for believing his role, but do you have any reasons for thinking it's of some alignment? my main reasons for suspecting Manix isn't because of his role, which I keep saying is null.

scumread ranking comes after I've commented on others. Slight scumread on Kaoz, his votes have all been unconvincing and he talks a lot about a lot of people, but he doesn't seem to have a lot to say on his scumreads.

[j00]

@Manix

Look, instead of continuing to make quips about me saying your role is null, how about giving reads on other people? You throw out buzz words like mudslinging and taking pot shots against me and Raymond, but you're the one doing it to us, basically rebutting us with things like "haha that's funny", "you're wrong", "already said why" and then you're too busy again and doesn't say anything else than "I've got bad vibes on people". Basically it's like you're trying to distort our posts and paint us as wrong and ignorant, but you're not answering stuff satisfactory and when we pry you blow us off, saying "bad attacks not coming from an townie" without properly explaining why.

You're vote is still on Refa, yet you've only responded to attacks for most of this phase. If you've got limited time, why haven't you commented about his latest posts? All you've got to say is that my issues with them doesn't seem townie, not explaining why or what your latest opinion on Refa is yourself.

[j00]

have to meet someone for lunch, so the rest comes later including UPDATED AND BETTER claim tier list

[Grace]

If you've got limited time, why haven't you commented about his latest posts?

because i was requested to find some reads on other players that weren't refa????????????

think about what you're saying. would you rather me tunnel or have more potential reads? since i'm pretty sure you have a problem with my only major read being refa, it doesn't look like i can win, can i.

that actually annoyed me enough to make me pretty damn demotivated. i'm out

[Grace]

mafia sucks

[Grace]

one more thing.

how about giving reads on other people?

If you've got limited time, why haven't you commented about his latest posts? All you've got to say is that my issues with them doesn't seem townie, not explaining why or what your latest opinion on Refa is yourself.

i rest my case. now i'm out, i might be back for deadline but i don't know.

[Kaoz]

My point was that SB and BBM had pretty much the same reasoning at the time, but he voted BBM because he expected SB to explain it later, even if BBM had more posts about the issue.

I still don't think that's right. Like, I don't think he ever said he expected SB to explain his vote more than he already did, just that, as the game goes on and SB puts forth more cases, he will be able to get an accurate read on him.

Here Vhaltz decides to avoid you because he realises your weird behaviour makes sense if you're town, i.e he does assume you're town. He also says he wasn't scumreading you anymore, but not if he based that on your town meta or what.

No, he doesn't. "It makes sense for X to do Y as town" doesn't equate to "X is town", just that X isn't necessarily scum based on Y, even if Y might generally be regarded as scummy or bad (like I dunno, Shinori claiming without having lots of votes would probably be an example of this). He even explicitly says that he isn't reading me in any particular way in #187 and I don't appear on his town reads list in #375 either.

eh, Kaoz has been waffly all game and sounds unconvinced even about his own scumreads, I understand that having a vote on someone looks better but if that was your only reason you're doing it for the sake of looking good, not because it helps focus your scumhunting. You voted SB without reading him properly, the votes on Bal and I was because of stuff we did a long time ago. You're voting me because I never answered the previous stuff properly, what do you think of my recent posts?

I'm voting because my vote represents my opinion on who I think the most scummy person is at that time in the clearest way. This doesn't mean it has to be a big scum read, it's a relative thing, and I can always change my vote when I start perceiving someone else as worse.

If I were to wait until I can type up a great case on someone, I'd spend half the time in my games voteless, and that's not helping anyone.

Yes, I voted SB at that time without rereading him first, I already explained why that's not an issue in my eyes. The Bal vote was based on his most recent post though with reasons that hadn't been pointed out by anyone else if memory serves and less than 24 hours after he made said post, so I don't see how that qualifies as "a long time ago".

The vote on you is based on the issues I explained in #426, the fact that you didn't respond to it prior to now just meant that I still had those issues, not that you not responding was the sole reason for my vote. And it's stuff from your D1 play, yeah, so what? It's also points that hadn't been discussed yet I believe, so what exactly is the problem with me bringing them up?

What do I think about your D2 posts? Not all that much to be honest, few has stood out to me as particular alignment indicative. I'm not too fond of your #418, you said you leaned town on Vhaltz and null on Elieson, but for some reason felt the need to then point out that town read plus null read don't add up to a scum read when that much should be obvious. Adding the "right now" at the end could also be interpreted as leaving open a backdoor to be able to turn your read on that slot around if a wagon picked up.

Then the points you made against eclipe and Refa didn't feel very strong to me and you kept bringing up Strege every so often, but I can't really tell what you think of him? Like, in #473 it first reads to me like you found him null, but then you keep going and talk about his SB case without really reaching a conclusion at the end. Like, do you think the SB case was bad or scummy or what?

I see you're ruling out role cop, and you don't really need to out your reasons for believing his role, but do you have any reasons for thinking it's of some alignment? my main reasons for suspecting Manix isn't because of his role, which I keep saying is null.

Yeah, I think if he was role cop he would've just claimed role cop - it wouldn't have conflicted with anything rules wise and probably just gone a lot smoother. As for whether it's alignment indicative, I think it makes less sense as a mafia role than as a town role.

Like you brought up the Vanillizer scenario and that town would out it if they lost their role, plus mafia would already know anyway. Continuing on with this train of thought, the mafia knows if a person who claims to have become vanilla is town or not (technically they could also be third, but there's been no indication of one so far, so I'm ignoring that here) and a townie probably wouldn't lie about it, so there's approximately zero utility for such a role as mafia, regardless of whether they have a Vanillizer or not.

On the other hand, a mafia member might lie about losing their role if the game state allows it, so from a town perspective Manix's role could be used to check for fakes like that.

Rolespec aside, his last response to you really reads like frustrated town to me.

Slight scumread on Kaoz, his votes have all been unconvincing and he talks a lot about a lot of people, but he doesn't seem to have a lot to say on his scumreads.

Explain why the Bal vote was unconvincing. The issue you brought up with it just doesn't apply in that case, it doesn't explain why it's even an issue in the first place, and doesn't address why the reasoning for the vote was bad.

Me talking more about my notscum reads more than my scum reads is easily explained by the fact that I have more of the former than the latter, and one of the latter had literally two content posts.

---

Didn't finish rereading yet and have to do some other stuff now. Apologies for the wall of text.

[Scarlet]

Kaoz, I don't think starting a completely new wagon this close to phase end is a good idea, considering what happened last time; save it for D3 or something. There's, what, 10 hours left?

We should probably start trying to come to an agreement on whom to lynch.

Also @the people voting Manix/those that find him suspicious, could they please explain whether they don't believe his role, or whether they think it's his real role but a mafia one. If the former, should I out why I think it's real? If the latter, I'd like to know why the mafia would have a role like that.

I think his role is BS, but then again it's a Prims game so *shrug*. I don't think role-spec will get us anywhere in this case, which is why his role claim doesn't factor into why I find him scummy.

Also, at this point I'm almost inclined to lynch him simply for being rude and annoying. Almost.

[charlie_]

Oh, I forgot we're this close to deadline. Don't want Refa or j00 lynched since they seem to be wagons? Gonna make votals now because yesterday was terrible.

[charlie_]

Also: Kaoz, if you have anything that could possibly clear Manix, out it now, we can't afford a sudden change at deadline again.

[charlie_]

Votals

Refa (3) - Manix, eclipse, Scarlet

SB (2) - Strege, Elieson

Manix (2) - j00, Conqueror

Strege (1) - SB

Elieson (1) - BigBangMeteor

eclipse (1) - Refa

j00 (1) - Kaoz

I think this is it?

[charlie_]

Continuing in trying and out-spampost j00, I think I'd prefer to lynch in eclipse/Strege/Manix/Elieson today, rereading those people to work on my priorities on them.

Everyone else should post who they want to lynch as soon as they can.

[charlie_]

#63 looks self-conscious to me, worrying about how he would look if Conqueror was scum when there was no reason to do so?

#114 has a Refa case that revolves around Refa apparently mudslinging since Refa keeping his vote down? This doesn't work for me. He also attacks Paper for ignoring a question from Kaoz even though Paper sort of answered it for voting for Manix.

#156's end is basically saying you're attacking him for not being explicit that nothing changed which is a pretty bad tell imo.

#333-337 seems like fake indignation to me? Especially the last one, it feels like it's an attack on BBM for the sake of attacking him rather than to try and find scum.

#399 is basically his case but it feels really small and flimsy considering his focus on Refa.

#449 is just a couple of weak reads based on stuff like being unmemorable (does this make them scum?) looking like they're being ignorant on purpose (how?) and ~vibes~.

There's also the general Refa tunnel for a lot of D1. I get Manix is usually focussed on one person over others but really the only other thing I remember him doing there is defending himself.

His general j00 suspicion too seems to based around her prodding his claim which is kind of terrible reasoning too? The lack of a townie motivation with the Refa push comment is also really dumb imo, scum can easily fake townie motivations if they're bussing, and considering the heavy Refa focus you should obviously think Refa is scum so something really isn't right there.

Claim is null, it's a Prims game. I can see a lot of arguments for scum!Rolecop not claiming as Rolecop too so I don't agree with that either.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

Vote goes here for being suspicious and the wagon looks like it will reasonably take off.

Raymond you were viewing for a while, did you have nothing to post?

[charlie_]

Oh never mind you were in the middle of one and sf didn't display it on the last page. welp.

[Scarlet]

Updated lynch priority as requested:

SB > Refa > Manix > everyone else > Elieson > CLIPSEY!

In addition to the other issues with him I've stated before, I strongly disliked SB's #503. The first half was basically just "no you're wrong because I say so", the latter half looked like an attempt to pass attention back to Elie without really giving much of a reason for why disagreeing with his arguments makes Elie lynch-worthy, both of which seem like half-assed scum attempts to stay out of the spotlight.

As for Elie now being where he is, I found that his play after the initial weirdness early D2 was very strong and genuinely seemed to try pushing the game forward, so combined with Vhaltz' strong night posts, I'm feeling a lot better about him.

[charlie_]

I'd lynch Elieson for those arguments because it feels like a blatant contradiction of his previous reads and he's pushing a horrible case against BBM that doesn't make much sense at all, if that post wasn't clear?

[Kaoz]

Kaoz, I don't think starting a completely new wagon this close to phase end is a good idea, considering what happened last time; save it for D3 or something. There's, what, 10 hours left?

We should probably start trying to come to an agreement on whom to lynch.

Tch. Fine. The relevant wagons are what, Refa (3) and SB, Strege, Manix (2 each), right?

Like I said before, I have no interest in lynching Manix, and SB seemed all right when I reread him, which leaves Refa and Strege.

For Refa, his insistence on that eclipse should've voted him over Paper still sticks out to me. Like, why would he do that as mafia? Especially considering that he got shit for it but didn't back down anyway (or at least I think Refa would be able to make a case someone else that doesn't rely on the argument "that person should've lynched me"). Also in #467, why would he start out by making his switch look more extreme than people originally perceived it? Like, I don't agree with his cases, but in my mind they don't make sense for scum!Refa to make either.

Something I found odd when rereading him was that in #468[/uon rl] he said that Manix only had him as a major scumread and seems to take issue with that, even though in #264 he says that that's something he would expect from town!Manix. If Refa could clarify here, that would be appreciated.

Rereading Strege was pretty unhelpful, I still feel null on him. Like, I didn't even find anything I'd want to point out in any way.

So once again this feels like a decision between mediocre and bad choices to me. In the case of Manix and Refa, they both have elements that make no sense to me if they're mafia, whereas I don't have any real concerns regarding Strege and SB either.

I guess I'd go with Strege > SB > Refa > Manix at this stage (Strege > SB because again, SB's voting pattern at the end of D1 seems a bit off to me for scum!SB), so...

##Unvote

##Vote: Strege

Also, I feel like I've been spending too much time on this game today, so I'll only check back one more time before turning in for the night to see if I need to switch my vote anywhere.

Lastly, people that are around at deadline should keep Conq's role in mind and try to get him another shot.

@Raymond

Since I recall you finding SB scummy, what are your thoughts on his voting pattern at the end of D1? Like, do you have any opinion on him switching to Vhaltz and then Manix rather than Manix directly?

@SB

I wouldn't say clear in that sense, more like it's something that makes me think it's not a fake claim. And from there on out my thought process is like I detailed it in my response to j00 earlier. If people find that helpful enough, I'll out it when I come back later. Like I said above, I need a break for now.

Also, like I said, his latest post read pretty townie to me as well.

[charlie_]

Are those priorities just out of the people who seem like reasonable wagons?

I think I missed wherever you said why you thought Manix is town so I should check that I guess.

[Scarlet]

I'd lynch Elieson for those arguments because it feels like a blatant contradiction of his previous reads

That point was already adressed in the very bit you quoted, though:

->

And I really did develop a scumread on you because of one post. Is that a problem for me exclusively? Because other people have openly and bluntly stated that they flipped on my slot's read because of one post, and you're completely ignoring them.

You didn't adress this at all.

For Refa, his insistence on that eclipse should've voted him over Paper still sticks out to me. Like, why would he do that as mafia?

For townie points and/or to attempt to paint CLIPSEY! in a worse light? He wasn't a lynch target at that point, so he had little to be afraid of when using that argument.

@Raymond

Since I recall you finding SB scummy, what are your thoughts on his voting pattern at the end of D1? Like, do you have any opinion on him switching to Vhaltz and then Manix rather than Manix directly?

I skimmed the thread once more and can't find SB stating any reason for why he found Vhaltz more lynch-worthy than Manix at that point (if I missed it, a quote would be appreciated). I didn't think much of it at first, considering how close it was to phase end (people tend to do dumb things when under pressure), but now that you mention it, that did come a bit out of the blue regardless.

At this point, though, this is only a minor factor in why I think SB is scum.