Big NOCers - Game Over

[Scarlet]

So I ISO'd Strege and don't really understand why they're a wagon right now? Their content seemed a bit forgettable, but I'm not really seeing the scum intent aside from the random CLIPSEY! vote today?

BBM, on the other hand, does stand out on a re-read. Reading all of his posts at once, it's kind of hard to summarize my feelings about him accurately, but his interactions with Manix seem... ...off. Like, he calls out Strege for "distancing" themselves from Manix when he himself was whaffling hard on Manix pretty much the entirety of the D1? I also find it hard to justify hard-defending someone because of an absurd role-claim in a Prims game when the defendee's overall behaviour is nonetheless anti-town.

Not sure if I'd put him above SB in scumminess just yet, though.

SB is still a thing.

Not quite so sure about Refa anymore; his play has been pretty anti-town so far, but Manix tunneling on him all day makes me reconsider. Bussing is a thing, but...

Updated lynch priority:

SB = BBM > Refa > everyone else > Conq = Elie = CLIPSEY!

For now,

##InviteOver: BBM

for pressure.

Also: maybe I missed your explanation, but where is your town read on j00 coming from?

[j00]

yeah I don't get Strege's case at all, eclipse barely mentions Manix D2 which enforces the fact that she was null on him. She also voted him over SB, making his lynch happen. I call BS on this one

##Vote: Strege

[charlie_]

Strege, you were on SB most of last phase, what happened to that read? SB is probably the only one I wouldn't give additional town cred to for voting scum, considering he's infamous for bussing.

it's kind of sad that my meta's gotten to this point, isn't it

man i just remembered i need to actually post something go me!

[BBM]

My townread on j00 is because her play D2 was obvtown.

I gave a PR to Strege but ??? it didn't seem to show up in his posts and he didn't acknowledge it so idk. Prims said I targeted him successfully and my vote works sooo

I have no idea where anyone gets that I was waffling hard on Manix on D1. I went from finding him suspicious to finding him less suspicious but still suspicious to voting him for consolidation to finding him town at the very end. That's not waffling, that's just changing my mind in a natural progression.

Raymond's vote is also super reactionary; he hasn't said a single thing about me all game other than that I failed to catch his attention and then suddenly when I express suspicion of him I begin to stand out. Funny how that works no? Also for someone who was scumreading Manix you would think he would pay more attention to the people hard-defending him. Raymond is also bordering on flat-out lying when he says he would have switched to Manix because he explicitly said in #545 that he preferred an SB lynch to a Manix lynch. This was consolidation time, Manix wasn't at L-1, and was a perfectly legitimate wagon.

Also when Raymond unvoted, there were 3 votes for Refa, 2 for Manix, and 3 for SB, by my count. I don't see how that means a Manix lynch isn't happening.

Evidence for Strege refusing to consolidate on Manix- #245, says "yeah Manix will probably come up with better content when he's less busy" which is IMO a fairly weak excuse. On Day 2 #529 is Manix waffling that puts him at #2 even though he doesn't seem very enthusiastic about the Manix lynch. Then in #578 he talks about how he doesn't want to lynch Manix based on some incorrect logic. Not harping on that specifically because that would be pretty hypocritical, but then when he admits the logic is wrong in #588 he doesn't really say whether that means he wants to lynch Manix or not.

[BBM]

SERIOUS BUSSER

Can you cite specific sources, reference my other content, or present a case at all? (Like I'm playing pretty badly so it shouldn't be hard.) Manix was a scummy because of the things he lacked, not the things he had, which is why the scumread was minor and I wasn't inclined to lynch him over others.

I don't know what this even means; why is being scummy for lacking things less worthy of a vote than being scummy for having things? I mean I could say you're scummy for having a scum role PM but I could also say that you're scummy for lacking a town role PM and both would be valid!

[Scarlet]

My townread on j00 is because her play D2 was obvtown.

Care to expound?

Raymond's vote is also super reactionary; he hasn't said a single thing about me all game other than that I failed to catch his attention and then suddenly when I express suspicion of him I begin to stand out. Funny how that works no?

Yes, you did fail to catch my attention all the way until today.

Today you warranted a closer look both for being one of the major wagons and for that unfounded push on me. I don't see how that makes my vote "super reactionary". Should I just have continued to ignore you?

I really don't like how you're trying to hold this against me.

Raymond is also bordering on flat-out lying when he says he would have switched to Manix because he explicitly said in #545 that he preferred an SB lynch to a Manix lynch. This was consolidation time, Manix wasn't at L-1, and was a perfectly legitimate wagon.

You seem to have missed the part where I said "I was going to be around all the way until phase end and thus not exactly in a rush to hammer". I would've switched to Manix had I have had reason to believe that neither the SB nor the Refa lynches were going to happen. Do tell me what exactly is wrong with voting for your top scumspect over a lesser scumspect when at that point, both appear to be viable wagons?

Also when Raymond unvoted, there were 3 votes for Refa, 2 for Manix, and 3 for SB, by my count. I don't see how that means a Manix lynch isn't happening.

Nobody had expressed terribly much interest in a Manix lynch is why.

[charlie_]

OK I AM GOOD AT THIS FOCUS THING.

I find Conqueror getting hooked really weird? I don't see why anyone would hook a proven dayvig.

I feel like Raymond's suspicion on me is just getting really lazy at this point. He keeps just saying "oh SB is the same" and keeping me at the top of his lynch priority without ever actually addressing my content since like, Day 1?

I found BBM town before, but I should probably get around to rereading him at some point.

Strege is still a thing, on top of stuff I said earlier I dislike how he avoided the subject of Manix quite heavily on a skim through his ISO in earlier parts of the game, despite him being a major wagon, and even later on his views on Manix aren't that strong. His cases in general just feel really lackluster and don't really feel like he's actively looking for scum so much as masking it with words, and his eclipse case can be similarly applied to himself which isn't a good thing.

Going to read some stuff (like Raymond). Not voting Strege because that'd be L-1?

[j00]

OK I AM GOOD AT THIS FOCUS THING.

I find Conqueror getting hooked really weird? I don't see why anyone would hook a proven dayvig.

He wasn't proven until D2, Elieson hooked him N1 but got delayed by you until N2.

I should get around to those ISO's, but I don't really think Manix was bussing Refa.

[j00]

Ugh, in case I don't finish rereading before I fall asleep, I'd still prefer Strege lynched today unless he has satisfactory reasons for dropping SB and jumping on eclipse. Should we try active Conq's vig shot?

[Elieson]

Day 3.1 - Votals

Strege (4): BigBangMeteor, Conqueror, ????????, j00

BigBangMeteor (3): Refa, Elieson, Scarlet

eclipse (1): Strege

Not Voting: eclipse, SB

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Uhh j00 just put Strege at L1 since BBM has this incredible urge to throw his votes around

[Scarlet]

I feel like Raymond's suspicion on me is just getting really lazy at this point. He keeps just saying "oh SB is the same" and keeping me at the top of his lynch priority without ever actually addressing my content since like, Day 1?

That's not true?

You posted much less D2 than you did D1, but I did adress you and your content multiple times.

In case you missed it when ISOing me or something, I adressed you in my #521 and a couple of my posts following that one.

I do admit that my scumread on you is still mostly because of your D1, but your more recent posts did nothing to worsen or improve that impression.

That, and I find it doubtful that we'd have three town-aligned roleblocker variants in a 13p game. I mean, it is a Prims game, but come on. I feel pretty good about my town reads on the other two, so yeah...

Going to read some stuff (like Raymond). Not voting Strege because that'd be L-1?

Actually, I'm pretty sure j00 already put Strege at L-1, so if you were to vote them now, that'd be hammer.

[j00]

I can't votals

##Unvote

On tablet so I can't bold either

[j00]

But seriously, what do people think about activating Conq's role and have hi shoot one of BBM and Strege? Those seems to be the only lynches happening today, unless someone finds Raymond to be a top scumread

[Elieson]

This might be the last time Conq can activate his role, since with him needing 4 votes and hammer being 5 today, we have to be careful not to get him lynched

[Elieson]

wait no he said cumulative way back right?

[j00]

Weren't they cumulative? i.e they don't have to be on him at the same time?

[Scarlet]

I'm pretty sure he said they were cumulative, so yeah.

If we want to go for it, we should probably avoid putting him all the way to L-1 just to avoid a scum quickhammer.

[j00]

I'm honestly not quite sure on neither BBM or Scarlet at the moment, BBM has relatively few posts so his posts are hard to read in ISO without context since a lot happens between some of his posts, and Scarlet's interaction with Manix is weird since when push came to shove, he hesitated joining the wagon.

Let's do this first

##Vote: Conqueror

[charlie_]

He wasn't proven until D2, Elieson hooked him N1 but got delayed by you until N2.

I should get around to those ISO's, but I don't really think Manix was bussing Refa.

Wait, Eli claimed Roleblocker too?

Going to read Raymond now.

[Elieson]

SB

Hit post too soon

Insomnia Jailor is my full claim

[Conqueror]

Just checking in real quick, but it's cumulative end-of-day votes. Cumulative in this case means it tracks it across days. So I would have gotten a fourth of a charge from BBM's end of D1 vote, but getting the vig from the no lynch reset that.

[BBM]

Care to expound?

Yes, you did fail to catch my attention all the way until today.

Today you warranted a closer look both for being one of the major wagons and for that unfounded push on me. I don't see how that makes my vote "super reactionary". Should I just have continued to ignore you?

I really don't like how you're trying to hold this against me.

You seem to have missed the part where I said "I was going to be around all the way until phase end and thus not exactly in a rush to hammer". I would've switched to Manix had I have had reason to believe that neither the SB nor the Refa lynches were going to happen. Do tell me what exactly is wrong with voting for your top scumspect over a lesser scumspect when at that point, both appear to be viable wagons?

Nobody had expressed terribly much interest in a Manix lynch is why.

But why were SB/Refa higher scumspects? The only reason you gave for unvoting Manix was that other people weren't interested in that lynch. That doesn't express a lessening of suspicion in any way. So how did SB and Refa both suddenly become more suspicious than Manix to warrant not switching your vote back when Manix did in fact become a viable wagon again? And as I said earlier, Manix wasn't even at L-1 for most of the time- voting him wouldn't have resulted in a hammer.

And what makes my push unfounded?

I don't really have anything to expound on. Her posts were overall good and she voted Manix early and unlike you, stuck to it.

Also I read the post where you voted me a little more closely. You vote me over SB simply for "pressure" even though I already had 2 votes on me which is kind of lol. Basically you just wanted to make me a wagon, which is understandable when your scumbuddy was the other one!!! Also yesterday you treated SB's claim as null but completely disregard the circumstances around it- his claim could have gotten him into a 1v1 for no good reason.

[BBM]

Don't the votes on Conq have to be at the end of the phase?

[Scarlet]

But why were SB/Refa higher scumspects? The only reason you gave for unvoting Manix was that other people weren't interested in that lynch. That doesn't express a lessening of suspicion in any way. So how did SB and Refa both suddenly become more suspicious than Manix to warrant not switching your vote back when Manix did in fact become a viable wagon again?

Partially because SB and Refa were actually doing things other than defend themselves, partially because I came to the conclusion that my judgement was clouded by my anger and I may have been too harsh on him.

And as I said earlier, Manix wasn't even at L-1 for most of the time- voting him wouldn't have resulted in a hammer.

Uh, I just double-checked and it appears you're right. I genuinely had the impression he was.

That does, however, not change the fact that he got hammered before I had a chance to make another post.

And what makes my push unfounded?

Because half of what you've been attacking me for is misunderstandings / not even true / illogical?

I don't really have anything to expound on. Her posts were overall good and she voted Manix early and unlike you, stuck to it.

I do think you have something to expound on. What in particular did you like about their posts? Any examples?

Also I read the post where you voted me a little more closely. You vote me over SB simply for "pressure" even though I already had 2 votes on me which is kind of lol.

What exactly is the problem? You'll have to explain that one.

Basically you just wanted to make me a wagon, which is understandable when your scumbuddy was the other one!!!

Clearly when you're running out of arguments, the townie thing to do is to be needlessly aggressive (and wrong).

(I also don't really see how 2 votes is not already a wagon to begin with when a lynch occurs at 5. You're just twisting the facts to suit your needs.)

[Strege]

Response post.

Elie: if I elaborated on my secret message then it wouldn't be a SECRET MESSAGE.

Scarlet: male pronouns are good for me, if it makes phrasing easier.

Strege, you were on SB most of last phase, what happened to that read? SB is probably the only one I wouldn't give additional town cred to for voting scum, considering he's infamous for bussing.

It still exists; at time of this writing I haven't gone back through SB's ISO for interactions yet though. I don't remember his meta.

Actually, that's a good point, though I'm more concerned not about him not voting for SB, but him voting eclipse out of the blue, when he's been SB mode so hard.

I think people might be forgetting that eclipse was my secondary scumread and all of my reads were kind of bad to begin with. I feel like people think I was going on SB hard because my arguments were different and I had to spend a lot of time defending their validity, or because I voted him all phase (which brings us back to point A: my reads were kind of bad).

My point was that he dropped the case completely and voted eclipse because of her Manix interactions, which, still looking at her ISO, I can't really find much of in D2. 95% is quite an exaggeration at least

I said I had to leave my computer... Also, I didn't say eclipse had a lot of Manix interactions as you seem to suggest, but that 95% of what she had was stuff I found disconcerting. She does have a probably average amount to say on Manix focused on D1 that talks a lot about how busy Manix is and how she doesn't want to lynch him, without ever giving supported input into either side of a case on him that would look more like defending or contribute to discussion on him.

Actually, wait, let me just quote you from D1: "Elaboration on eclipse, she's defending Manix a lot without many reasons for him being town, being busy and such is at most a null tell, and while I see that you're not convinced he's scum you're not giving compelling evidence for him town when defending him.". This is more or less what I'm talking about.

[...]

I gave a PR to Strege but ??? it didn't seem to show up in his posts and he didn't acknowledge it so idk. Prims said I targeted him successfully and my vote works sooo

[...]

Evidence for Strege refusing to consolidate on Manix- #245, says "yeah Manix will probably come up with better content when he's less busy" which is IMO a fairly weak excuse. On Day 2 #529 is Manix waffling that puts him at #2 even though he doesn't seem very enthusiastic about the Manix lynch. Then in #578 he talks about how he doesn't want to lynch Manix based on some incorrect logic. Not harping on that specifically because that would be pretty hypocritical, but then when he admits the logic is wrong in #588 he doesn't really say whether that means he wants to lynch Manix or not.

I got the PR -- I need to incorporate scripture into my posts.

I put Manix at #2 out of 3 wagons that I didn't get to choose, so not being enthusiastic isn't a contradiction (I was even less hyped about lynching Refa). My rolespec thing, again, lasted 9 minutes and more importantly: why would that event suggest any net difference in my read after I figured things out? Lastly, I gave my read on Manix as "meh" but obviously would have lynched him over a universal loss or Refa. All of this seems to boil down to "Strege had a weak read on Manix" which is true but I feel like you and I both could have saved some typing if you had just written that, and that ultimately this is a little overblown.

I don't know what this even means; why is being scummy for lacking things less worthy of a vote than being scummy for having things? I mean I could say you're scummy for having a scum role PM but I could also say that you're scummy for lacking a town role PM and both would be valid!

That's a silly example. :P It might be terrible play but I try not to interpret a lack of activity, substantial content, strong reads, or whathaveyou as scummy under most circumstances. I feel like it stems from IRL stuff and the player more often than not. If you can manage to find someone shifting a wagon or their opinion rapidly and without cause, lying, appearing to conceal their opinion, or you know, an /action/, then I think it's more reliable evidence. I probably undervalue the former and suck at identifying the latter, but there you go.

Strege is still a thing, on top of stuff I said earlier I dislike how he avoided the subject of Manix quite heavily on a skim through his ISO in earlier parts of the game, despite him being a major wagon, and even later on his views on Manix aren't that strong. His cases in general just feel really lackluster and don't really feel like he's actively looking for scum so much as masking it with words, and his eclipse case can be similarly applied to himself which isn't a good thing.

Which eclipse case?

I should probably claim. I'm town Blacksmith.

N1 I gave Conq a useful item, since I figured he was very townie and was the only person who was suspicious of me, so crumbing my role later would alleviate that suspicion. Obviously that hasn't worked, and I'm curious what Conq's thought process is. I'm also kind of thinking that one of our roleblocker-y people is scum (because otherwise my role could be pretty OP) but that's not a very novel or frankly solid opinion.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; CLING TO WHAT IS GOOD. (me) I'll be back soon with reads (!) if I don't fall asleep.