Best written villain?

[Elieson]

My son and I had [yet again] another debate about FE13. He thinks that Grima is the coolest villain since sliced bread, because time travel and mind control and stuff, and I argued that Gangrel was, since he had emotion and motivation behind his actions, that eventually led to a powertrip and all that jazz.

Anyway, what's your opinion on this? I guess pickings are kinda slim, but from what I gather, there's:

• Gangrel
• Aversa
• Walhart
• Validar
• Grima
• Excellus?
• LolYen'Fay
• --others that you feel like mentioning?

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Mustafa?

[Arrout]

Mustafa.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Mustafa, because of his tragic backstory. It's sad, you cannot recruit him.

[Rehab]

I like Jarod'd writing more than he probably deserves, just because of the moment in his introduction where it's like "But sir! We couldn't get her, there were civilians!"

"Oh, I see! Because there were civilians."

/murders a man in cold blood

"YOU FUCKING IMBECILE"

I sorta got a sense that there was pressure on him from both above and below. And his death quote to me was like, "you know what? Fuck all you guys, I did my job"

oh shit wait this is in awakening, not general. delete or sthg

Edited May 16, 2014 by Rehab

[bookofholsety]

i actually unironically like walhart, and i guess he is better written than the others by virtue of there being basically nothing of substance for the poor writing to cock up

as we can plainly see it's pretty easy to get cultish megalomania and cackling-mad vengeance completely wrong when you're as bad at writing as whatever sorry bastards wrote fe13, but a thick-headed juggernaut who never gets into the whole SUPPOSEDLY COMPLEX PLANS thing and pretty much just sits there and sounds imposing? not even m night shyamalan could fuck this one up

[Anacybele]

Out of the more prominent villains, I say Gangrel. He actually develops after you recruit him and he wishes to redeem himself. He goes from being an insane fruitcake to a guy that has an actual heart and wants to take reponsibility for his actions.

In terms of the minor dudes though, I agree with Mustafa.

[RJWalker]

Walhart has an interesting design and hints of complexity to him that is never used to it's full potential but that's a lot better than some of the others so yeah.

[Duke of Dozel]

Is this a trick question? Picking the best villain is like picking a turd for dessert and choosing the one that taste the least bad.

Going to go with Walhart, though, because he's the best out of the worst, if only because he managed to be a threat if Chrom and his miracle squad of invincible units didn't show up.

[BrightBow]

Gangrel and Grima are both complete jokes. There is absolutely nothing to these guys. They want to destroy Ylisse/the world because it's the dastardly thing to do and that's it. They have entertaining personalities and going on a pleasure ride on a giant dragon is kind of metal. But otherwise they are just wasting time.

Mustafa is a perfect example of the awful chessboard morality deployed in this game: The only way for an antagonist to be sympathetic is if he would be totally on the side of the heroes if he wasn't blackmailed. Given how he looks like, he could have been interesting. The guy is probably old enough to have witnessed the actions of Chrom's father. How does he feel about those events? Not to mention about the fact that his son is now leading an army into his home country? But of course we don't get any of that and he is merely totally on his side because Emmeryn taught him that war is bad, a thought that apparently never occurred to him in the last few decades. Man, we are so privileged that we have quality cartoons like Captain Planet that teaches us such valuable morals. And then they literally did the very same thing again with Yen'fay, just even dumber... *urgh*

Yeah, it has to be Wallhart. This guy really feels like he came from a way better story. His philosophy about creating peace through strength could have been quite interesting when properly put against the typical Fire Emblem protagonist and he didn't have to act like a complete moron by allowing some wannabe to ruin his ambitions for a mere lulz.

Edited May 16, 2014 by BrightBow

[Elieson]

Gangrel and Grima are both complete jokes. There is absolutely nothing to these guys. They want to destroy Ylisse/the world because it's the dastardly thing to do and that's it. They have entertaining personalities and going on a pleasure ride on a giant dragon is kind of metal. But otherwise they are just wasting time.

Before you recruit Gangrel, he indicates that he just wants revenge against Chrommeryn's dad for beating them last time, then trying to move on from things. It's kind of childish, but there's a reason there. How he managed to get that far as King, and have so many loyal supporters? Well, the Grimleal had their own sort of subplot, but from Gangrel's PoV, allies were allies.

After you recruit him, Gangrel admits in his support with (I think Male!)Avatar, that he wanted to force a war in order to win, thus uniting the continent under one ruler, and have a chance at defeating Valm. It's not "because it's the dastardly thing to do". It sucks that this wasn't touched upon during the main story (read, while he was alive), but it still exists as a reason.

[BrightBow]

Before you recruit Gangrel, he indicates that he just wants revenge against Chrommeryn's dad for beating them last time, then trying to move on from things. It's kind of childish, but there's a reason there. How he managed to get that far as King, and have so many loyal supporters? Well, the Grimleal had their own sort of subplot, but from Gangrel's PoV, allies were allies.

After you recruit him, Gangrel admits in his support with (I think Male!)Avatar, that he wanted to force a war in order to win, thus uniting the continent under one ruler, and have a chance at defeating Valm. It's not "because it's the dastardly thing to do". It sucks that this wasn't touched upon during the main story (read, while he was alive), but it still exists as a reason.

He doesn't indicate it. Gangrel claims he does but there is not the slightest bit of sincerity in his words. That hyena doesn't come across as if he has any genuine desire for revenge, as someone who lost something to the war of Chrom's father that would make him feel that way. And he himself called Emmeryn "disgustingly noble" while laughing about it.

An avenger believes himself on the side of justice. As someone who rights a wrong. There is no way he can be sincere about wanting revenge when he himself acknowledges and mocks the goodness of his opponents.

The Spotpass maps? Those are the same Spotpass maps that completely destroyed Aversa's character by making everything about her the result of brainwashing.

All the stuff with Gangrel comes completely out of nowhere and makes no sense. He wanted to crush the other nations on the continent in order to withstand an invasion from Wallhart... except that would only make every nation weaker and therefore make Wallharts job all the more easer.

Btw, see what I mean with "chessboard morality?" Aversa and Gangrel were as evil as they could be. But once the Spotpass map came out, it suddenly turned out they were never evil to begin with... despite there never having been the slightest hint of it before. Like that stuff about Chrom being the villain from Aversa's perspective? Well, nobody who isn't irredeemable evil could possibly be against Chrom and Robin. Not even to protect their own father and the only family they ever had. That had to be the result of brainwashing.

I bet if Vallidar would have gotten a Spotpass map, it would have turned out that he was totally going to stab Grima in the back as well.

Edited May 16, 2014 by BrightBow

[Knight]

I like to think that Gangrel is the villain of missed potential, there could have been much more to him in the second half of the game if he wasn't a bonus character and instead you find him alive and defeated somewhere in the second half. I think Gangrel is my favourite villain overall, because I don't really like any of the others. Walhart comes close to not sucking, but even he has faults.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Knight

[Duke of Dozel]

He doesn't indicate it. Gangrel claims he does but there is not the slightest bit of sincerity in his words. That hyena doesn't come across as if he has any genuine desire for revenge, as someone who lost something to the war of Chrom's father that would make him feel that way. And he himself called Emmeryn "disgustingly noble" while laughing about it.

An avenger believes himself on the side of justice. As someone who rights a wrong. There is no way he can be sincere about wanting revenge when he himself acknowledges and mocks the goodness of his opponents.

The Spotpass maps? Those are the same Spotpass maps that completely destroyed Aversa's character by making everything about her the result of brainwashing.

All the stuff with Gangrel comes completely out of nowhere and makes no sense. He wanted to crush the other nations on the continent in order to withstand an invasion from Wallhart... except that would only make every nation weaker and therefore make Wallharts job all the more easer.

Btw, see what I mean with "chessboard morality?" Aversa and Gangrel were as evil as they could be. But once the Spotpass map came out, it turned out they were never evil to begin with... despite there never having been the slightest hint of it before.

Like that stuff about Chrom being the villain from Aversa's perspective? Well, nobody who isn't evil to the core could possibly be against Chrom and Robin. Not even to protect their own father. That had to be the result of brainwashing.

I bet if Vallidar would have gotten a Spotpass map, it would have turned out that he was totally going to stab Grima in the back as well.

The paralogues ruined what little character they had as villains. I was literally about to post this, because ALL of the villains were evil. Validar wanted to destroy the world for who knows why, Gangrel wanted to destroy Ylisse because he hated what they did before. Also because he was a raging prick.

Excellius and Cervantes are background side villains who were behind most of the bad things that happened to the people, apparently. Aversa was dead-set on killing Chrom and co. ONE MISSION BEFORE her paralogue, only to suddenly be innocent all along due to BRAIN-WASHING! Such originality, guys. Haven't seen that one before.

In all seriousness, I still find Walhart the best. At least his motives are believable and it's not like he'd tell Chrom, his enemy, the details of his plan at the time.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Duke of Dozel

[BrightBow]

I like to think that Gangrel is the villain of missed potential, there could have been much more to him in the second half of the game if he wasn't a bonus character and instead you find him alive and defeated somewhere in the second half. I think Gangrel is my favourite villain overall, because I don't really like any of the others. Walhart comes close to not sucking, but even he has faults.

I believe the opposite. Gangrel is partly responsible that a potentially good story was ruined.

A nation that suffered cruel injustice and therefore carried a deep grudge? That could make for a good story. But not when the representative of that country is a guy who doesn't care about it and only brings this up in order to hurt the protagonists in order to show how good and pure the are. And of course the recruits of that country are evil comic reliefs and don't actually care about it either. Which only leaves Mustafa as a representative of these wounded and angry people. But that guy never acknowledges the suffering of his countrymen either and is 100% behind Chrom simply because of what Emmeryn said with no further consideration of anything else.

Edited May 16, 2014 by BrightBow

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Brightbow, kudos to you for your amazing posts. I always enjoy them but this time you really described Awakening's black & white morality; I totally remember those posts in which you pointed out how the Avatar is allowed to mass murder people on an entire boat (and then do puns about it) and the game' story gets even uglier.

It's especially crappy because I think the series does have many characters who don't need to be on the good side to have a noble, respectable spirit; Deghinsea comes to mind, or Ishtar, or that one valkirye from Sacred Stones, etc.

Anyway...

I think the best written villain is.... uh... I guess Excellus.

It's because I think they all suck but at least Excellus kept me entertained: the whole "I could be the princess" thing, the ridiculous saturday morning revelation to Say'ri when Yen'fai died... it was fun, I loved to see the good guys get smacked so badly. Plus, there's an implication he might be an eunuch and that's an odd, interesting fact.

If it wasn't for the brainwashing shenanigans I'd say Aversa; I love femme fatales and she always striked me as a cool character.

But then I discovered the brainwashing shit and the LIVING LIFE AS A NORMAL GURL.

I have a feeling this "normal girl" thing might mean that she stopped dressing and acting super foxy (other than stopping being a villanous magician, of course), and that kind of irritates me: it gives a feeling that if you dress or act that way then it means you're bound to be bad woman... :/

...but then I might be just imagining things lol.

THAT ASIDE, I still don't like it: why can't Aversa use her magic to do good things, then? Or be the same person except without all the murder and the Grima devotion?? I enjoy characters who want to redeem themselves but she never looked like someone who was sad for how she was, it has nothing to do with her personality but with her actions.

Aand of course Tharja still gets to be the super crazy horrible person she always has been (unless she marries to certain people, I guess). I hate some of the double standards of this game.

[Czar_Yoshi]

That depends on your definition of "best written". Are you talking about whoever said, "I want a jerk sorcerer who's nothing but evil" or the person who actually wrote his dialogue? I'm going to assume the latter and say Cervantes because of his mustache. Excellus and Gangrel also score points because their writing is entertaining (to me, at least), even if they're pretty weak villains.

As for the former: yes, ingame Grima is a joke. For the most part, FoD Grima is also a joke, though at least he does more stuff. But how many here have seen FoD3's bad ending?

[Cowboy Karimov]

Hardin technically counts due to SpotPass, right? He's my favorite villian in the series. Plus many of FE13's characters are a joke.

OK, enough joking around. I'm going to try and do both of the definitions of "best-written" that Czar_Yoshi said. For the former, I thought that Yen'Fay was pretty good, and one of the few characters I liked quite a lot. He definitely has the backstory and the fact you had to kill him made you feel sad for him(kinda like Mustafa). For the latter, I'd go with Czar and say Cervantes. I also liked Excellus, not only for his writing, but also the fact that he's androgynous in all the wrong ways.

[euklyd]

Cervantes imo. Very little to fuck up there.

Also Walhart, I guess, but they could've done their job a lot better if there had been inklings of his existence beforehand.

Like, there are no GLARING INCONSISTENCIES they're just Okay Villains™ who serve their purpose as characters.

[Dark Sage]

Hardin technically counts due to SpotPass, right? He's my favorite villian in the series. Plus many of FE13's characters are a joke.

OK, enough joking around. I'm going to try and do both of the definitions of "best-written" that Czar_Yoshi said. For the former, I thought that Yen'Fay was pretty good, and one of the few characters I liked quite a lot. He definitely has the backstory and the fact you had to kill him made you feel sad for him(kinda like Mustafa). For the latter, I'd go with Czar and say Cervantes. I also liked Excellus, not only for his writing, but also the fact that he's androgynous in all the wrong ways.

Who's Yen'fay again?

As for the best written, Gangel I guess. He at least has something resembling motivations and actually does stuff, as opposed to Walhart who only appears for two chapters and doesn't actually do anything. Plus his motivations are even weaker than Gangrel's.

[Cowboy Karimov]

Who's Yen'fay again?

As for the best written, Gangel I guess. He at least has something resembling motivations and actually does stuff, as opposed to Walhart who only appears for two chapters and doesn't actually do anything. Plus his motivations are even weaker than Gangrel's.

Say'Ri's brother whom you kill at the Demon's Ingle.

[FrostyFireMage]

The Avatar.

Destroys precious resources given to them by a country suffering from losing a war in order to kill even more people while cracking jokes.

[Book Bro]

For me it's between Gangrel and Aversa. They both had great potential, so it's too bad Gangrel's role is rushed and Aversa is pushed aside so Validar can fail miserably over and over and Avatar can hog more of the spotlight. I think Gangrel's paralogue is one of the better ones, and like someone else mentioned here it would have been interesting to see this expanded in the main story after a longer character arc. While I like Aversa's paralogue despite it being a little cliché, she really should have been allowed to be the mastermind she seemed to be, rather than just a pawn used by the most pathetic evildude ever. So I guess I'd say Aversa is the best written until maybe post-Valm, and Gangrel overall.

Walhart is the only other of the major villains worth mentioning, and while I can appreciate what they tried to do with him, he is just so much more underdeveloped than the other two. It would be interesting if we got a game set in Valm during Awakening but before Chrom and friends arrive, maybe with Say'ri as the lord, since that whole continent was left totally dull and uninteresting.

[NobodiePichu]

gangrel was fabulous and a decent villain till he got last minute ret-conned into a good guy (HEEEEEE SHOULD HAVE STAYED DEAAAAD!!!!) and walhart was a freaking boss there and could have been an actual great main villain if he was expanded on and given a chance to shine (and he also should have stayed dead!!), and hell evil avatar grimna thing could have been played pretty good too if awakening's writing wasn't so baaaaaaaaaaaad!

otherwise no one worth mentioning or remembering (aversa was boring and not a threat, yenfey though he's sexy and all was played weakly, and validar. . . -_- just no.)

[euklyd]

The Avatar.

Destroys precious resources given to them by a country suffering from losing a war in order to kill even more people while cracking jokes.

I was gonna make this joke, but then I realized Avatar isn't exactly super well written.