@ #notallmen >=[

[jiodi]

You totally went there. Im...kinda watching the giant elephant in the room just walk past. Hey, i really think if you do wanna discuss that, its to the SD board with ye.

Theres a New Thread button a-callin'.

I try not to keep up with all the latest hashtags and memes because it feels better living in ignorance.

I wasn't trying to say that not all men would do such a thing, I was trying to say that there is a portion of the male population that suffers from the slut-shaming and alpha-male dominated culture that is our society.

I'm in no way trying to defend this douchebag. At all. Just wanted to point out another symptom of the problem, which is that all genders need to understand how this shit affects them and get on board with fixing it.

[Esme]

...And you couldn't just PM this to Loki?

[peener weener]

sure why not

There are people who will watch that dude's video and relate to his pain. This is possible without agreeing with what he did. You spend your life seeing the alpha males snatch up all the ladies and you are more and more alienated and isolated and simply cannot get the women that society tells you you have to get to be cool. You try desperately to get women, getting more and more extreme in your means, leading to trying to "trick" them and eventually becoming one of these retarded "mens' rights activists".

This is not a problem of alpha males snatching up women. Note the language used- alpha males, snatching up/getting women. This is looking at sex, relationships, women as things a man must "win." This line of thinking is very dangerous. It is the problem. In a male-dominated society where sexual power is one-sided, the victims aren't really men like Elliot Rodger, who resort to misogyny. If he was raised in an environment where he came to expect "getting women" as a reward for whatever it is he considered benefitial to that goal, don't you think the victims are the women he expects as rewards?

What I noticed is everyone is banging on the slut-shaming drum, which is fine, but we're forgetting that these males are being tossed under the rug. This guy did a disservice to those who feel like he does because nobody is going to bother making his pain part of the conversation.

I don't think using this guy as an example is a very good idea at all. His pain stems from the fact that he was a mentally ill narcissist, who felt entitled to women and things and who saw himself as a god. It is very much negligible in this situation.

However, this does raise the topic of his clear mental illness. And the fact that this man, who had had no effective treatment, was easily able to acquire firearms? Which uh, I guess it's a different issue than the one being discussed? It's worth discussing though I think.

Not all males belong to the group of douchebag men that dominate society, they are just as much a victim as everyone else.

Saying there is a group of douchebag men that dominate society is fairly childish and itself a consequence of the problem I was talking about.

I can't even attempt to devil's advocate enough to justify what this guy did or take his side, but I really do think a discussion could be had about the effects of a male-dominated, hollywood-dominated culture has on guys who have some sort of complex or fear of women or spend their lives not attaining what they perceive as what they're supposed to be attaining. Which I guess is women to have sex with or something.

Yeah, it's true. The victims aren't exclusive to one group of people, but the negative effects suffered aren't really equal across the board. Gender roles, ie societally constructed notions of masculinity and femeninity, are imposed on both males and females. I think that's hardly relevant to this particular incident though.

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Tryhard]

may as well post this again

I think a common reaction for men who are continually rejected would be despondency. Yes, maybe anger. But I think very few would proclaim themselves a god and demand that the very act of sex be destroyed, which is what this guy did.

His manifesto, which I skimmed, read like a dark comedy. The guy was clearly mentally ill, I don't think anyone can deny that.

He also wasn't really a men's right activist, I believe that was just poor media coverage as always. That said, that doesn't mean he wasn't misogynistic, because he clearly was.

Some men's right activists groups came out to defend this cretin, and they should be condemned for that.

But I also have trouble with the rheteoric of feminist groups coming out to slam men because of this, of course, because if the opposite happened (extreme misandrist female (who may or may not be associated with feminism) went out and killed a bunch of people), I have no doubt that some feminist groups would defend this person, and the exact same thing would happen.

I have no love for either feminism or men's rights activism. I don't think the 'patriarchy' exists, in the west at least, which is why I have a hard time getting being the whole "male-dominated" society thing. But that's another topic.

Can we take steps to prevent society from forcing this mentality that you need to have sex otherwise you are worthless? Absolutely.

Can we correct human nature, though? I don't know.

I don't really know about this #notallmen but I think it's pointless to specify, anyway. Of course not all men are like that - it's like that for most groups. Extremism, etc.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Tryhard

[peener weener]

But I also have trouble with the rheteoric of feminist groups coming out to slam men because of this, of course, because if the opposite happened (extreme misandrist female (who may or may not be associated with feminism) went out and killed a bunch of people), I have no doubt that some feminist groups would defend this person, and the exact same thing would happen.

I don't understand how this invalidates feminism or what "some feminist groups" are saying about the incident.

I have no love for either feminism or men's rights activism. I don't think the 'patriarchy' exists, in the west at least, which is why I have a hard time getting being the whole "male-dominated" society thing. But that's another topic.

Whoooooooooole different can of worms. Yeah.

Can we take steps to prevent society from forcing this mentality that you need to have sex otherwise you are worthless? Absolutely.

Yes.

Can we correct human nature, though? I don't know.

What do you mean by human nature?

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Elieson]

##NoTallMen is what I read at first. That would be a much better topic title. Do I count? I'm only 5'10"

The problem in this situation i think came from therapists and police officers not checking the bedroom of this guy with a pile of "legally" acquired firearms, and not feminism or whatever. If you've got mental problems, I don't think finding a copy of Vogue magazine at a hair salon is gonna cause you to tip past the edge of sanity, and if it does, you clearly need psychological aid.

My thoughts are as simple as:

To buy and maintain ownership of firearms, one must maintain a license of ownership, and renew it on a year-to-year basis. With fewer gun owners than car owners, I assume that it'd be easier to mandate and enforce this policy. Punishment for expired licenses? Repossession of the owned firearms. Get your license renewed, you can get your firearms back for a small fine of [i dunno how many] $. You have to do registration for vehicles, why can't you have it for weaponry?

This has everything to do with what happened and nothing to do with the gender of who was involved.

---

Alpha-male dominated society...makes sense. Leaders exist because they organize and get shit done. Don't like the leader? Well...that's where things get finicky. Does it have to be an alpha male? No. Things are changing, like with Hilary running for office, and female astronauts and such. The fact that so many things in today's society are geared towards sex appeal, something women have an easier time advertising over men in places like mass media and the interwebs, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the fault of stupid college-age fraternity dumbasses or sorority whores or whatever, that this guy went off the deep end.

All men are dogs and all women are whores. Fite me. /sarcasm I in no way think this, I just want to make that clear.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Elieson

[jiodi]

sure why not

Hehehe why thank you XD

This is not a problem of alpha males snatching up women. Note the language used- alpha males, snatching up/getting women. This is looking at sex, relationships, women as things a man must "win." This line of thinking is very dangerous. It is the problem. In a male-dominated society where sexual power is one-sided, the victims aren't really men like Elliot Rodger, who resort to misogyny. If he was raised in an environment where he came to expect "getting women" as a reward for whatever it is he considered benefitial to that goal, don't you think the victims are the women he expects as rewards?

I totally agree, I was simply trying to look at this from the perspective of these men who aren't getting what they feel entitled to. It seems like there is a very real stigma that makes men think these things, and consequently spiral further and further into depression and self-loathing (or misogyny).

I don't think using this guy as an example is a very good idea at all. His pain stems from the fact that he was a mentally ill narcissist, who felt entitled to women and things and who saw himself as a god. It is very much negligible in this situation.

However, this does raise the topic of his clear mental illness. And the fact that this man, who had had no effective treatment, was easily able to acquire firearms? Which uh, I guess it's a different issue than the one being discussed? It's worth discussing though I think.

His decision of how to deal with his pain is why everyone's even looking at this. No one will ever discuss the intense pressure men feel to be the one to get all the wimminz or else be less of a man. It's understandable, because men dealing with this issue is a direct symptom of the way women in society are treated and regarded as objects. But hey, I'm trying here XD

Saying there is a group of douchebag men that dominate society is fairly childish and itself a consequence of the problem I was talking about.

Apologies, I was being hyperbolic for effect. I agree with you, and that's why I brought it up. I know it sounds childish, but there is definitely a pecking order. A patriarchal society definitely has a minority of men calling the shots while the "lesser men" are trying to be like the ones getting all the wimminz. One could be even more hyperbolic and over-simplify it by saying everything men do is for obtaining the wimminz.

Yeah, it's true. The victims aren't exclusive to one group of people, but the negative effects suffered aren't really equal across the board. Gender roles, ie societally constructed notions of masculinity and femeninity, are imposed on both males and females. I think that's hardly relevant to this particular incident though.

Yeah I was trying to rise to the challenge here, and this was as far as I could get. In truth, this case really puts a hamper on the men who suffer under the current culture because it becomes a gender-based argument. And women are the real victims in our shitty slut-shaming culture. I despise being the bad guy and saying the shit anyone with a brain will say "yeah, moot point, stfu" but the fact that this guy's illness spiraled so out of control and it stems directly from this women-as-objects paradigm it feels fair to at least point it out for a bit of, tangential at best, discussion.

[Esau of Isaac]

What do you mean by human nature?

Perhaps poorly put, but in essence probably something like "can you ever stop murderers?" Enacting weapon bans and programs to locate and treat mentally ill people is always helpful, though people will debate on the finer points until the heat death of the universe. But will we ever have a time when crazy people aren't around? Probably not.

I am simply so fed up with this constant politicizing of tragedies when an insane person behaves like an insane person. Everyone points fingers this way and that blaming every minute thing they don't like for leading to a psycopath acting out. This is why people become disillusioned with the world at large.

To buy and maintain ownership of firearms, one must maintain a license of ownership, and renew it on a year-to-year basis. With fewer gun owners than car owners, I assume that it'd be easier to mandate and enforce this policy. Punishment for expired licenses? Repossession of the owned firearms. Get your license renewed, you can get your firearms back for a small fine of [i dunno how many] $. You have to do registration for vehicles, why can't you have it for weaponry?

How does this stop murderers? It just introduces a regulatory body for possession of the arms.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Esau of Isaac

[Tryhard]

I don't understand how this invalidates feminism or what "some feminist groups" are saying about the incident.

I don't feel as though it would be a great idea to go into feminism here as it isn't directly related to the topic, but I found the reaction of some feminists groups quite baffling as they attempted to blame society for allowing mass misogyny shared by Elliot Rodger's ideas and trying to get MRAs labelled as a hate group. Some of them completely rejected the notion that this man was even mentally ill, saying his misogyny was the cause, not the obvious illness he has. I suppose that's the problem I have with it, especially since the opposite is very possible.

#notallfeminists (sorry i'm terrible)

What do you mean by human nature?

Having a heavy sex drive was one of the things that influenced Elliot Rodgers, the desire for sex is a thing that is human nature. The desire to partake in activities that others are getting pleasure out of. That sort of thing. Lastly, the fact that he murdered other people-- damn it Esau. Yeah, I could've put it better.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Tryhard

[Elieson]

How does this stop murderers? It just introduces a regulatory body for possession of the arms.

People still get in accidents while speeding on highways. You can't take away vehicles.

People still get killed in stabbings. Our posterchild of the news today stabbed 2 people (was it 2 or 3)? Gonna take his butterknives and ball point pens?

It's not going to end murder, but it's an efficient way to monitor weapons posession and help reduce the chances of:

-Someone just going off the deep end and entering a shooting spree

-Someone having their weapons stolen from their home and used against them/against the public

-Firearms just turning up missing somehow.

Unless you have a WayBack machine, I don't think anybody's Stopping murder from happening period/

[peener weener]

Perhaps poorly put, but in essence probably something like "can you ever stop murderers?" Enacting weapon bans and programs to locate and treat mentally ill people is always helpful, though people will debate on the finer points until the heat death of the universe. But will we ever have a time when crazy people aren't around? Probably not.

I am simply so fed up with this constant politicizing of tragedies when an insane person behaves like an insane person. Everyone points fingers this way and that blaming every minute thing they don't like for leading to a psycopath acting out.

Saying what is essentially "(insane) boys will be (insane) boys" can't hand-wave away the fact this incident was heavily political. Shootings like this one happen all the fucking time in the United States, this is hardly an isolated example. I think it is absolutely fair to use it in an argument regarding firearm legislation.

Everyone points fingers this way and that blaming every minute thing they don't like for leading to a psycopath acting out.

Whoa there tiger

I don't feel as though it would be a great idea to go into feminism here as it isn't directly related to the topic, but I found the reaction of some feminists groups quite baffling as they attempted to blame society for allowing mass misogyny shared by Elliot Rodger's ideas and trying to get MRAs labelled as a hate group. Some of them completely rejected the notion that this man was even mentally ill, saying his misogyny was the cause, not the obvious illness he has. I suppose that's the problem I have with it, especially since the opposite is very possible.

I understand that, really, but I still don't see how it invalidates feminism as a movement or the position being presented.

edit: actually, i guess i kind of see esau's point. using this incident as leverage to further some feminist campaign is fairly insensitive and disrespectful, i think. i don't personally know anyone who's been personally affected by the shooting, but i do have a friend who lives fairly nearby and he's been very much affected, even without directly knowing any of the victims.

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Tryhard]

I understand that, really, but I still don't see how it invalidates feminism as a movement or the position being presented.

I wasn't really trying to, honestly.

[XeKr]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/

(lolonion, etc, but I believe this brand of satire effectively communicates the point. Perhaps surprising, yet rather profound.)

EDIT: To clarify a bit, this article has been circulating among people that I personally consider to be very respectable and reputable (for good reason, imo) and I also think it's very relevant.

Edited May 27, 2014 by XeKr

[Esau of Isaac]

Saying what is essentially "(insane) boys will be (insane) boys" can't hand-wave away the fact this incident was heavily political. Shootings like this one happen all the fucking time in the United States, this is hardly an isolated example. I think it is absolutely fair to use it in an argument regarding firearm legislation.

I am saying (well, now saying) that guns were not to blame for this incident and using the event as political leverage the moment it happens is shameful, if inevitable. I'm tired of seeing it happen, I truly am. This incident wasn't heavily political until it was made political after a crazy murderer murdered people.

I keep typing talking points for guns and I keep deleting them because I am so sick to death of making every single psycopath's rampage about guns.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Esau of Isaac

[peener weener]

I am saying (well, now saying) that guns were not to blame for this incident and using the event as political leverage the moment it happens is shameful, if inevitable. I'm tired of seeing it happen, I truly am. This incident wasn't heavily political until it was made political after a crazy murderer murdered people.

I keep typing talking points for guns and I keep deleting them because I am so sick to death of making every single psycopath's rampage about guns.

The motives behind this crazy murderer's crazy murderings were heavily political in nature. Although he WAS a nutjob. Which... also raises a valid discussion about mental health networks.

edit: also read my edit ya dimwit

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Esau of Isaac]

No. I don't think they were. He murdered people because he was an unhinged nutjob. Debating the fine points of his psychotic ramblings gives credit where none is due.

Example, should we be discussing regulations for frat-boy films that could have legitimized his insane ideals in his head?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Everyone points fingers this way and that blaming every minute thing they don't like for leading to a psycopath acting out.

Hi. For once, feminism really isnt crying wolf. Yes, feminism has this problem that resulted in why everyone is claiming its crying wolf now. Im usually one of the first people to point at that lot and tell them they are crying wolf. Now is not one of those times. When a guy's manifesto includes the eradication of women or stating they are "a plague" (yes, direct quote), theres a feminist issue to be raised. Is it the only thing that must be raised by this incident? No. The mental health debate does have validity but i dont think we should pin it solely on that. This dude did this because he felt entitled to women and angry and envious of the men who got the women he wanted. Theres a problem here because this guy got this idea from somewhere.

Somewhere...

Somewhere that isnt really just his deranged mind. A culture that tells boys like him that he is entitled to these things. It is his insanity that drove him to do this horrific act, but the fact theres people sympathizing with how he felt and why he did this, fucking disturbs me. "He got reject~ed. Its so sad. If women werent so awful, this wouldnt have happened." etc. Its pretty creepy the comments ive read. The misogyny in the world is all too real and it is time to address it. Thats the elephant in the living room here. Entitlement and misogyny.

I actually do not really find this whole thing to be a gun control issue. While i see the validity of that argument, i dont think this is the crux of the problem.

Which... also raises a valid discussion about mental health networks.

Hmm perhaps. US health care is pretty shit in general. The dismissal of autism and disorders on that spectrum and pinning psychos on it (like Elliot Rodgers) is pretty disturbing. Autism doesnt cause people to get murderous. Theres also a lot of misdiagnoses of Asperger's that could be something completely different. Yeah i do agree the mental health networks need reevaluation.

[peener weener]

No. I don't think they were. He murdered people because he was an unhinged nutjob. Debating the fine points of his psychotic ramblings gives credit where none is due.

Example, should we be discussing regulations for frat-boy films that could have legitimized his insane ideals in his head?

How do you compare firearms to art?

edit: this is getting way off-topic.

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Esau of Isaac]

How do you compare firearms to art?

I'm not. I was assuming you're talking about the motivations of the murderer. Guns had absolutely nothing to do with his behavior. Same with the knives he used to stab other victims.

When a guy's manifesto includes the eradication of women or stating they are "a plague" (yes, direct quote), theres a feminist issue to be raised. Is it the only thing that must be raised by this incident? No. The mental health debate does have validity but i dont think we should pin it solely on that. This dude did this because he felt entitled to women and angry and envious of the men who got the women he wanted. Theres a problem here because this guy got this idea from somewhere.

He got it from being insane. The idea wasn't planted into his head that he should murder women for being denied sex. If he was a Jew and killed a bunch of restaurant owners for not serving kosher meat it would not indicate that there is religious persecution that needs to be examined, just that there is a very clearly mentally ill man that killed people because he's not all there.

[jiodi]

This dude did this because he felt entitled to women and angry and envious of the men who got the women he wanted. Theres a problem here because this guy got this idea from somewhere.

Somewhere...

Somewhere that isnt really just his deranged mind. A culture that tells boys like him that he is entitled to these things. It is his insanity that drove him to do this horrific act, but the fact theres people sympathizing with how he felt and why he did this, fucking disturbs me. "He got reject~ed. Its so sad. If women werent so awful, this wouldnt have happened." etc. Its pretty creepy the comments ive read. The misogyny in the world is all too real and it is time to address it. Thats the elephant in the living room here. Entitlement and misogyny.

This.

The people who sympathize with the misogyny and entitlement and shit are sympathizing with the wrong thing.

What I've been trying to get at is the fact that, while these ideas manifest themselves in different ways, feeling like you are not adequate and feeling severely self-conscious is something to sympathize with. A lot of guys don't know how to talk to women, and the response of "well get over it, idiot, wtf" is not something that necessarily helps their state of mind, since they've been dealing with it all their lives.

They live in a world where they were told getting the wimminz = being a true man. That you get wimminz by being fuckin awesome with your muscles or your money or your privilege or your suaveness or your whathaveyou. They can either internalize and become horribly self-loathing and depressed or they externalize and become misogynistic and treat women like trash, further perpetuating the problem.

And don't get me wrong, women are the real victims here. The gender as a whole is treated in such a horrible way and anyone that think the shit this guy said has any validity is as ignorant as he is. But I think it's helpful if we realize that everyone is affected negatively by this culture and the sooner men realize that it's not okay to base your self worth on objectified women the sooner we will all be able to breathe easier.

EDIT: Also, as a note, the mental health camp is suuuper pissed off that people keeping tossing this in the "mental defect" bucket. Always saying that someone "was just insane" sheds a hugely negative light on the entire mental health community. This is far more an issue of culture than it is of mental health.

Edited May 27, 2014 by jiodi

[Loki Laufeyson]

They live in a world where they were told getting the wimminz = being a true man. That you get wimminz by being fuckin awesome with your muscles or your money or your privilege or your suaveness or your whathaveyou. They can either internalize and become horribly self-loathing and depressed or they externalize and become misogynistic and treat women like trash, further perpetuating the problem.

Of course, patriarchy hurts men as well. But we shouldnt be saying "not all men..." Instead, we need to address why there is this whole problem to begin with. Saying "well not all men..." wont fix the problem that men are being wounded by patriarchy and acting on misogynistic ideas.

But I think it's helpful if we realize that everyone is affected negatively by this culture and the sooner men realize that it's not okay to base your self worth on objectified women the sooner we will all be able to breathe easier.

Well yeah. The entitlement part applies to everyone really. Im not entitled to Tom Hiddleston, just as you arent entitled to Scarlet Johansson. Ya know?

He got it from being insane.

So...you missed the elephant in the living room. Ok.

[Tryhard]

Hi. For once, feminism really isnt crying wolf. Yes, feminism has this problem that resulted in why everyone is claiming its crying wolf now. Im usually one of the first people to point at that lot and tell them they are crying wolf. Now is not one of those times. When a guy's manifesto includes the eradication of women or stating they are "a plague" (yes, direct quote), theres a feminist issue to be raised. Is it the only thing that must be raised by this incident? No. The mental health debate does have validity but i dont think we should pin it solely on that. This dude did this because he felt entitled to women and angry and envious of the men who got the women he wanted. Theres a problem here because this guy got this idea from somewhere.

Somewhere...

Somewhere that isnt really just his deranged mind. A culture that tells boys like him that he is entitled to these things. It is his insanity that drove him to do this horrific act, but the fact theres people sympathizing with how he felt and why he did this, fucking disturbs me. "He got reject~ed. Its so sad. If women werent so awful, this wouldnt have happened." etc. Its pretty creepy the comments ive read. The misogyny in the world is all too real and it is time to address it. Thats the elephant in the living room here. Entitlement and misogyny.

How do you suppose we tackle this sense of misogyny and entitlement? Because I think unfortunately we are ill-equipped to do much about it. I suppose it ties into the "Nice Guy" topic a couple of days ago here.

Do you think it is something that can be taught in education in an "empathy" sense or do you think that it should just be common sense? I have no sympathy for him, but if other people do, that is a problem.

While I do think it is mainly a mental health issue (and no, nowhere I am saying that we should disparage mentally ill people who aren't cretins), there may be other underlying issues that I'm ignorant about.

Of course, patriarchy hurts men as well. But we shouldnt be saying "not all men..." Instead, we need to address why there is this whole problem to begin with. Saying "well not all men..." wont fix the problem that men are being wounded by patriarchy and acting on misogynistic ideas.

(i suppose you disagreed with what I said otherwise) Edited May 27, 2014 by Tryhard

[peener weener]

I'm not. I was assuming you're talking about the motivations of the murderer. Guns had absolutely nothing to do with his behavior. Same with the knives he used to stab other victims.

Guns gave him a way to act on his insane motivations. This isn't some "guns don't kill people" bullshit. People use guns to kill other people. Three fucking semi-automatic assault rifles. And a semi-automatic assault rifle is in no world even remotely comparable to a knife. The threat one presents is far, far smaller than the other.

He got it from being insane. The idea wasn't planted into his head that he should murder women for being denied sex. If he was a Jew and killed a bunch of restaurant owners for not serving kosher meat it would not indicate that there is religious persecution that needs to be examined, just that there is a very clearly mentally ill man that killed people because he's not all there.

True. He is insane as shit, but the incident also raises light to the issue of misogyny, which, once again, played a very big part in it. I dunno about 'direct cause of,' but it's an issue worth discussing, and ultimately what this thread is about. The comparison you brought up does not hold any water.

Edited May 27, 2014 by fuccboi

[Esau of Isaac]

So...you missed the elephant in the living room. Ok.

What elephant? That some people are willing to take the ravings of a madman and apply them to an entire populace of millions of people?

Anyone who thinks there is a persistent culture that males deserve females' as sex toys is utterly misinformed. It boggles my mind that so many people are so utterly driven to see the world in such an ugly light. It's terrifying that this has become a relevant talking point, to me.

Guns gave him a way to act on his insane motivations. This isn't some "guns don't kill people" bullshit. People use guns to kill other people. Three fucking semi-automatic assault rifles. And a semi-automatic assault rifle is in no world even remotely comparable to a knife. The threat one presents is far, far smaller than the other.

Knives game him a way to act on his insane motivations as well. Some people use guns to kill other people. I have a gun. Do you think I am going to kill people? Am I not to be trusted to own one? Do you trust a policing agency I can easily join to carry guns, but not me? Do you trust a military I can join today --criticized in this very forum by multiple members as behaving similarly to terrorists-- to arm themselves with guns, but not me? I agree that murderers should not get their hands on a gun, let alone any weapon, but how do you stop that from happening? How do you maintain security of that nature while maintaining fairness and rights for everyone?

True. He is insane as shit, but the incident also raises light to the issue of misogyny, which, once again, played a very big part in it. I dunno about 'direct cause of,' but it's an issue worth discussing, and ultimately what this thread is about.

I emphatically disagree, and I think valuing his viewpoints as though they are held by any relevant part of the population is insulting to the utmost degree.

[jiodi]

Of course, patriarchy hurts men as well. But we shouldnt be saying "not all men..." Instead, we need to address why there is this whole problem to begin with. Saying "well not all men..." wont fix the problem that men are being wounded by patriarchy and acting on misogynistic ideas.

Well yeah. The entitlement part applies to everyone really. Im not entitled to Tom Hiddleston, just as you arent entitled to Scarlet Johansson. Ya know?

Regardless of the fact that I AM entitled to Scarlet Johansson, it seems like somewhere along the line I came across as actually using "not all men are like this guy" at some point. Because I haven't disagreed with you on a single point so far.

"Not all males belong to the group of douchebag men that dominate society, they are just as much a victim as everyone else."

Ah ha! I bet this is the little bastard of a sentence I railed off not realizing what it was implying!

I wasn't saying this in terms of how the meme is being tossed around, I promise. I was trying to illustrate what I've been saying in this thread about the beta-male stuff. I actually wasn't saying "not all men are this guy", but rather "the male dominated culture affects a subset of men in an awful, awful way".

I never meant to discourage the female part of the argument but rather bring up that, even in a male-dominated culture, many men suffer under the burden of "need wimminz y wimminz no like me". And I can sympathize with those guys, just not the potential misogynistic externalization of that pain. And all the other shit I brought up.

I'll chew on my foot for as long as you see fit before safely removing and never inserting "man problems" into a feminist argument.

EDIT: because i copy/paste quoted and you actually didn't say the thing that I said >.<

Edited May 28, 2014 by jiodi