I still don't get the praise of this game...

[Jotari]

But they can be separated from each other. Lyn mode is only required until the game has been beaten once. One never has to see it twice.

I'll agree tutorials can be better and have been better (though it really depends on the player), but I'm sure you realize why Lyn mode makes more sense in FE7 than in any other FE a similar mode could have been made in.

You say this often, and it's quite useless. Yes, opinions, blah blah blah. We all have them, they all stink, etc. The problem is that people can't have discussion if everyone is focused on "Well, opinions," so you have to put that to the side so that we might actually be able to talk about stuff.

You have to see it twice to get that late game gaiden chapter don't you? Something to do with getting Nils to level 10 in Lyn mode and then playing Hector Hard mode which can only be unlocked after beating the game once.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Jotari

[Florete]

You have to see it twice to get that late game gaiden chapter don't you? Something to do with getting Nils to level 10 in Lyn mode and then playing Hector Hard mode which can only be unlocked after beating the game once.

It's either Hector mode difficulty. That gaiden requirement is stupid for more than requiring Lyn mode to get it, but either way, it is still completely optional and just one map.

[RJWalker]

You don't need to play it on Tutorial Mode again. You can play it on Hard Mode.

[Interceptor]

I just want to point out that Pass actually opens up new strategies if you know how to use it [...] So while these skills do shut down major strategies, they also open up new ones if you look hard enough.

Yeah, that's basically where I was going with that, and why I said "simple walls". One of the nice things about Lunatic+, is all of the new crazy things that are available. Some of them were always possible (but inefficient), but some are brand-new.

Well for one, the stories from the older games are far, far, far better than anything Awakening has. And while Fe4/5's gameplay are somewhat affected by "Super Nintendo Era Strategy Game Syndrome", their gameplay go much more hand in hand with their stories than Awakening's does.

Playing Fire Emblem for the story seems to me like watching a soap opera for the acting, or reading Maxim for the articles. Being "far, far, far better" than Awakening's story seems to be about as difficult as leaping over a sheet of paper. Isn't that like saying that a punch in the face is better than a kick in the junk? The story in Awakening isn't good, but it's entertaining. I have never been impressed with the story in any FE game.

The fact that they were really good for their time is not reason enough? I don't consider Awakening good for its time.

No, it's not. Horse-drawn carriages were "good for their time", but they still filled the city streets with horseshit, and we actually live in the 21st century now.

Your complaints of a bad interface among other things are nonsensical.

Something isn't nonsensical just because the reality of it is devastating to your case. The cumulative QoL improvements present in Awakening really make the old stuff look like ancient artifacts. Old doesn't mean bad; sometimes an interface does actually hold up over time (see: Tetris, Mega Man, etc). But Fire Emblem is not one of those franchises.

As far back as the GBA games, you can easily manage your items, arrange your units in the order you want, use items, trade items, buy or sell items just as easily as Awakening. The only improvement is unlimited storage space. The battle interface is pretty much the same too. Auto battle isn't new either and has existed since FE2. Only an idiot would have any trouble with the interface, at least as far back as the GBA games.

"Only improvement is unlimited storage space" is an offense worthy of ignoring your entire argument. Hyperbole is one thing, but if you can't think of a single other thing... especially if going all the way back to the GBA. Optimize, store all, automatic restocking/combining, trading items from a master list (with portraits and current locations!), and that's just the damned inventory.

[arvilino]

But they can be separated from each other. Lyn mode is only required until the game has been beaten once. One never has to see it twice.

I'll agree tutorials can be better and have been better (though it really depends on the player), but I'm sure you realize why Lyn mode makes more sense in FE7 than in any other FE a similar mode could have been made in.

Though you still have to do Eliwood normal mode(and then Hector normal) to unlock both the hard modes. Eliwood normal mode was fine in 2003/2004 when it was the first Fire Emblem game for a lot of us in the west, but it's like an extended version of Lyn's mode to get to the higher difficulty settings and you essentially have to play through it twice to get to Hector Hard Mode.

And as Jotari said a Lyn's mode needs to be played a 2nd time to unlock chapter 19xx.

[Jotari]

But can you even play Hector Normal mode on the first playthrough of the game? I've only played FE7 once and I don't recall seeing the option for Hector Mode at all. I'm quite anxious about it because the copy I have tends to erase all data every now and then so I'm going to have to play Lyn mode again anyway to get that one chapter. If I have to play the entirety of Lyn Mode and Eliwood mode again then it'll be quite a pain. (I've already had to endure Lyn mode twice and long after I was accustomed to the mechanics of the series)

Edited June 6, 2014 by Jotari

[Florete]

Though you still have to do Eliwood normal mode(and then Hector normal) to unlock both the hard modes. Eliwood normal mode was fine in 2003/2004 when it was the first Fire Emblem game for a lot of us in the west, but it's like an extended version of Lyn's mode to get to the higher difficulty settings and you essentially have to play through it twice to get to Hector Hard Mode.

And as Jotari said a Lyn's mode needs to be played a 2nd time to unlock chapter 19xx.

Playing through lower difficulties to unlock higher ones isn't uncommon in Fire Emblem or in any video game to this day.

19xx is inconsequential as far as I'm concerned.

[metalsnowman3]

The person he responded to basically said only his opinion is correct and that everyone who thinks the other games are better is factually wrong. HF's response was the right type of response.

I still don't see how you do more than this on your arguments on why this game is bad.

[RJWalker]

^I've donse so many times.

Also. why is playing through Eliwood Normal mode a pain? It's not a forced tutorial mode. It's easy but then I don't see how easy is a pain.

You need to play Lyn Normal the first time. Then you can play Eliwood Normal. Then every mode except Hector Hard is unlocked.

To get to 19xx you can play through Lyn Hard which lacks any of the forced tutorials and then move on to Hector mode.

It's a counterintuitive way to do things but nothing different from having to play Lunatic to unlock Lunatic+. Yes, anything outside of HHM is easy but again, how is easy a pain?

"Only improvement is unlimited storage space" is an offense worthy of ignoring your entire argument. Hyperbole is one thing, but if you can't think of a single other thing... especially if going all the way back to the GBA. Optimize, store all, automatic restocking/combining, trading items from a master list (with portraits and current locations!), and that's just the damned inventory.

Good thing those existed in the GBA games then, right?

At least get your facts straight.

Never really got the point of Optimize since optimize means different things for different people.

So yeah, the only improvement is unlimited storage space and ironically, this game doesn't even need it the least as Bright Bow said in another thread. Or was it this one?

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Interceptor]

But they can be separated from each other. Lyn mode is only required until the game has been beaten once. One never has to see it twice.

Irrelevant to the point (and not even entirely accurate). The fact of the matter is, if you want to play HHM in FE7, something like Lyn Mode is tied to it at some point.

Playing through lower difficulties to unlock higher ones isn't uncommon in Fire Emblem or in any video game to this day.

If it was common for video games to come with free Anthrax spores, does that makes it OK? It's dumb as hell if there isn't any particular reason for a difficulty unlock. Awakening actually has a sensible one (Lunatic Casual/Classic for equivalent mode in Lunatic+), whereas the unlocks for other games range from annoying (Radiant Dawn) to extremely annoying (Blazing Sword).

[Jotari]

^I've donse so many times.

Also. why is playing through Eliwood Normal mode a pain? It's not a forced tutorial mode. It's easy but then I don't see how easy is a pain.

You need to play Lyn Normal the first time. Then you can play Eliwood Normal. Then every mode except Hector Hard is unlocked.

To get to 19xx you can play through Lyn Hard which lacks any of the forced tutorials and then move on to Hector mode.

It's a counterintuitive way to do things but nothing different from having to play Lunatic to unlock Lunatic+. Yes, anything outside of HHM is easy but again, how is easy a pain?

Good thing those existed in the GBA games then, right?

At least get your facts straight.

Never really got the point of Optimize since optimize means different things for different people.

So yeah, the only improvement is unlimited storage space and ironically, this game doesn't even need it the least as Bright Bow said in another thread. Or was it this one?

If you're referring to me there, I don't think Eliwood normal mode is ihnerently a pain. It's just going to be irritating to playthrough it again in my unique situation with a lot of worry of loosing all my save data at any moment. Then having to play through the entirety of Lyn and Hector mode again just to get one chapter. I do enjoy playing Fire Emblem but that's a lot of chapters to go through and I have a large back log of games to get through at the moment. But that's just the situation I'm in. Eliwood normal mode is a fun experience and hearing Lyn Hard mode (exists and) doesn't have tutorials is good news to me.

[BrightBow]

So yeah, the only improvement is unlimited storage space and ironically, this game doesn't even need it the least as Bright Bow said in another thread. Or was it this one?

If you mean what I said in the nice things thread, I didn't quite say that.

I said that starting with PoR there was no longer that much need for it's increased storage space compared to the GBA games because the omnipresent store allowed to buy most things right when you needed them, so there was less need to keep large reserves. I kinda forgot about the remakes, though. And it is still important that the limit was raised because 100 is not that much either way.

But Awakening is an entirely different animal since it is open ended. Not to mention that there is all kinds of stuff that can't be bought at all. So it is most definitely a good thing that it has as much storage space as it does.

Of course, since the last console and handheld games were linear, it's not much of a point against them. That 200-300 limit is very difficult to fill. I am one hell of an item hoarder and even I only come close when I feel like going through replacement units like copy paper, resulting in all their iron weapons going to the stock.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Interceptor]

Good thing those existed in the GBA games then, right?

At least get your facts straight.

Sorry; Blazing Sword gives me PTSD whenever I load it up, and I haven't seen you concede a point in two years, so I don't have much incentive to be thorough.

Never really got the point of Optimize since optimize means different things for different people.

Which apparently makes it worthless.

So yeah, the only improvement is unlimited storage space [...]

I guess you missed the part about restocking and combining items.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Interceptor

[Jotari]

Sorry; Blazing Sword gives me PTSD whenever I load it up, and I haven't seen you concede a point in two years, so I don't have much incentive to be thorough.

Which apparently makes it worthless.

I guess you missed the part about restocking and combining items.

I'm not really falling anywhere in this argument but I do feel I should point out that you can combine items in Shadow Dragon too.

[RJWalker]

Sorry; Blazing Sword gives me PTSD whenever I load it up, and I haven't seen you concede a point in two years, so I don't have much incentive to be thorough.

If you can't get facts straight, then why should I concede anything? Thefact is that GBA games do have Store all and a Master trading list. And optimize may not be worthless but I don't see it as an improvement because it seems to think legacy weapons are automatically superior and doesn't do much for me.

So okay, 2 improvements. The lack of unlimited storage place (which has never been a problem personally) and a better restock and combine feature than the DS games (leftover uses are not wasted anymore, oooh, groundbreaking!) makes the interface crap? I think the problem may lie with you rather than the interface.

Meanwhile, I find the interface for the DS games to be much better because you can do everything on the touchscreen with ease and comfort. Using the touchscreen for user convenience is not used to its full potential in Awakening. They were on the right track in the DS games but its a downgrade in Awakening.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

The person he responded to basically said only his opinion is correct and that everyone who thinks the other games are better is factually wrong. HF's response was the right type of response.

thank you jack, thats what i was getting on the person for.

i'd be happy to discuss opinions with people no problem, but we have people going "yeah well my opinion is that one you should think because your opinion sucks" like that guy did.

speaking of opinions, as much as i did love how much better the DLC was written, i don't think it changes the fact that i had to pay more money to get quality writing that i enjoyed which the same level of quality should've been in the main game.

it just makes me feel like they could've done a whole lot better with the main story then they did

[Interceptor]

I'm not really falling anywhere in this argument but I do feel I should point out that you can combine items in Shadow Dragon too.

Precisely; as you get further from the Bad Old Days™ and closer to modern titles, you see this stuff start to creep in.

If you can't get facts straight, then why should I concede anything?

Agreed, why start now? Keep the streak going.

I think the problem may lie with you rather than the interface.

I think I should note that I said "and that's just the damned inventory". There might be a hundred little things peppered all over the place that make Awakening more of a game and less of a chore; I even love the minor crap like quickly cycling between weapons on the pre-battle window. The things like skipping phases/animations has already been covered, and stuff like improved enemy ranges and the like hasn't even been brought up yet.

[metalsnowman3]

Sorry that was not my intent but I can see that it comes across like that and I apologize. I still personally think that Awakening is not that far off from the others and I enjoyed it but yeah my previous posts were dumb.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Sorry that was not my intent but I can see that it comes across like that and I apologize. I still personally think that Awakening is not that far off from the others and I enjoyed it but yeah my previous posts were dumb.

no problem man, i ain't gonna get on you for enjoying something i don't, that's your freedom.

[RJWalker]

Agreed, why start now? Keep the streak going.

So you're going to continue being wrong and ass about it? Good to know.

Anyway, I don't see much improvement when the interface is a downgrade from the previous games. The touch based interface was great. Now the touchscreen becomes useless once you learn what Strength is or what a Skill does or if you already knew. You can't even use the touchscreen for simple things like menu navigation on the freaking main menu. They have made it so you could navigate the options through the touchscreen as well as the buttons but they didn't. To make use of the 3D gimmick, all the action is on the top screen rather than the bottom so you had the option to play the game as you want. User convenience was sacrificed for a better looking game.

If that isn't a downgrade, then you're kidding yourself.

[BrightBow]

I think I should note that I said "and that's just the damned inventory". There might be a hundred little things peppered all over the place that make Awakening more of a game and less of a chore; I even love the minor crap like quickly cycling between weapons on the pre-battle window. The things like skipping phases/animations has already been covered, and stuff like improved enemy ranges and the like hasn't even been brought up yet.

I still have to argue that Awakening has nothing short of the worst interface since the GBA days. And even then, only because I count the limited inventory space. There are way more problems with it, and item fusion doesn't make up for all of them.

-Like, why do I randomly have to fight Risen battles just to visit a shop?

-Why do I have to send valuable Annas and Streetpass teams away when I simply want to access the items from the regular store?

-Why do I have to search the entire damn map for that one shop that sells HP Tonics, just to name one example?

-And how come, the series somehow forgot since Radiant Dawn to allow the player to buy several items at once? Especially now that all those cheap tonics create a larger need to buy items in great quantities then every before.

And while displaying the items held by other characters is sometimes useful but most of the time I have them their items for a reason, so chances are I am not seeking to transfer them. The vast majority of the time, it makes it harder to find the items I am actually looking for because all that stuff clutters that low res screen of the 3DS. In the GBA games, it was optional and in the console games, it didn't matter that much because the higher resolution allowed a better overview.

And the skill icons are awfully small and so close together, It makes t a huge pain check all the skills of very single enemy. And I am using the XL.

Plus, there is the constant hassle of having to switch paired up units just to access their inventory.

Just a reminder since it is the only decent worldmap game: In Sacred Stones you could immediately escape an undead encounter. So getting rid of them only took a few seconds. The shops were also like the regular shops from the linear games, so you didn't have to check a lot of them to find what you need. And I think Radiant Dawn is the only game in the series that allowed to buy multiple items at once. But the others don't have tonics, so you are unlikely to miss it anyway.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Tanner]

I suppose Lunatic+ is extremely easy, then.

Depends on what your definition of "easy" is.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Anyway, I don't see much improvement when the interface is a downgrade from the previous games. The touch based interface was great. Now the touchscreen becomes useless once you learn what Strength is or what a Skill does or if you already knew. You can't even use the touchscreen for simple things like menu navigation on the freaking main menu. They have made it so you could navigate the options through the touchscreen as well as the buttons but they didn't. To make use of the 3D gimmick, all the action is on the top screen rather than the bottom so you had the option to play the game as you want. User convenience was sacrificed for a better looking game.

I played Shadow Dragon on a DSi XL, and I play Awakening on a normal 3ds. The stylus on the DSi is very easy to reach and I can grab it whenever I want to use the touchscreen, but it's in an incredibly awkward position on the 3ds. I'm extremely picky about keeping my stuff shiny, and as a result have no problem using the DS touchscreen but don't like using it on the 3ds. Basically, Shadow Dragon's touch controls were cool, but I wouldn't use them if Awakening had them.

-Like, why do I randomly have to fight Risen battles just to visit a shop?

-Why do I have to send valuable Annas and Streetpass teams away when I simply want to access the items from the regular store?

-Why do I have to search the entire damn map for that one shop that sells HP Tonics, just to name one example?

-And how come, the series somehow forgot since Radiant Dawn to allow the player to buy several items at once? Especially now that all those cheap tonics create a larger need to buy items in great quantities then every before.

And while displaying the items held by other characters is sometimes useful but most of the time I have them their items for a reason, so chances are I am not seeking to transfer them. The vast majority of the time, it makes it harder to find the items I am actually looking for because all that stuff clutters that low res screen of the 3DS. In the GBA games, it was optional and in the console games, it didn't matter that much because the higher resolution allowed a better overview.

And the skill icons are awfully small and so close together, It makes t a huge pain check all the skills of very single enemy. And I am using the XL.

Risen blocking shops, Anna disappearing and remembering the locations of shops isn't interface, it's gameplay, and since when are the Wii/GCN considered high resolution? Skills can be recognized based solely on their icon, if they had text alongside them that would both clutter the interface and annoy people who already know what they do.

[BrightBow]

Risen blocking shops, Anna disappearing and remembering the locations of shops isn't interface, it's gameplay, and since when are the Wii/GCN considered high resolution? Skills can be recognized based solely on their icon, if they had text alongside them that would both clutter the interface and annoy people who already know what they do.

How is it a good thing if the game randomly decides to close a shop? What RPG does that? Pokemon? Dragon Quest? Elder Scrolls? Etrian Odyssey?

You either let the game waste your time by going into a pointless, generic battle or you let it waste your time by putting the 3DS down and do something different for a few hours. Not a good choice either way.

The console games have a high resolution compared to the DS screens. Or maybe it's just the screen size that makes the difference here. I didn't count the pixels. Point is, the screen displays a lot more items at once.

Expecting the player to simply memorize them is absurd. Those are 95 skills. I probably miscounted and forgot to count the Lunatic variations. But point is: There are a lot of them.

You not only need to know the effect of every single one of them but also every single value attached to it. And a lot of them look exactly the same except for slight differences like a recolor. Like all the rally skills or the Dark Mage skills. What was the Hex skill again? The black hand with the red or the purple background?

It's absurd to expect players to memorize them all. You might as well not display Weapon names because they also have unique icons. It's theoretically possible, even easier because most games in the series probably don't come close to have separate 95 items. But it's massive pain in the ass that you shouldn't have to deal with.

Also, what happened with simply selecting something on the status menu to read an explanation? Now you have to hit those small symbols with the touchpen that you don't need for anything else in the game except for checking skills. And of course the text appears right were you would hold your pen. So you have to move it out of the way first to read it, just to move it back into the screen to check the next. Rinse repeat, five times for each enemy, countless more times for all the other guys on the map.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

How is it a good thing if the game randomly decides to close a shop? What RPG does that? Pokemon? Dragon Quest? Elder Scrolls? Etrian Odyssey?

You either let the game waste your time by going into a pointless, generic battle or you let it waste your time by putting the 3DS down and do something different for a few hours. Not a good choice either way.

The console games have a high resolution compared to the DS screens. Or maybe it's just the screen size that makes the difference here. I didn't count the pixels. Point is, the screen displays a lot more items at once.

Expecting the player to simply memorize them is absurd. Those are 95 skills. I probably miscounted but point is: There are a lot of them.

You not only need to know the effect of every single one of them but also every single value attached to it. And a lot of them look exactly the same except for slight differences like a recolor. Like all the rally skills or the Dark Mage skills. What was the Hex skill again? The black hand with the red or the purple background?

It's absurd to expect players to memorize them all. You might as well not display Weapon names because they also have unique icons. It's theoretically possible, even easier because most games in the series probably don't come close to have separate 95 items. But it's massive pain in the ass that you shouldn't have to deal with.

Also, what happened with simply selecting something on the status menu to read an explanation? Now you have to hit those small symbols with the touchpen that you don't need for anything else in the game except for checking skills. And of course the text appears right were you would hold your pen. So you have to move it out of the way first to read it, just to move it back into the screen to check the next. Rinse repeat, five times for each enemy, countless more times for all the other guys on the map.

You know you can touch the skill icons to not what they do? You can touch anything in the game to get information on it. It's the same set up as the way skills are done in Genealogy of Holy War (and personally I don't have much trouble differentiating between the icons. They tend to show what the skill does pretty well from what I can see. The fact that the icon appears when the skill is used helps to embed them).

Should have read the full comment. You did know that.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Jotari