I still don't get the praise of this game...

[Constable Reggie]

It's fantastic that you enjoy Awakening despite all its flaws. It may not seem so from my posts, but I still enjoyed my time with Awakening and would play that against over most other strategy games, because it's still Fire Emblem, and Fire Emblem rocks.

I love this series, and I want it to get even better. I point out the flaws in the game because I want the series to learn from its shortcomings and get even better in the future, not because I hate the game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with loving this game; it's clear it was made with all the earnest and heart of the IS crew; it's not a cynical cash grab like, say, the Transformers movies.

I'm all for people enjoying and loving the hell out of this game.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Refa]

So, where's the part where everyone starts calling me a terrible person for loving the crap out of Awakening despite its flaws? I mean crap, I still love the story even if it has so many holes in it that it looks like it's been shot with a machine gun.

...In all seriousness, why does everyone need the feel to point out every time that "Awakening's story is shit". We know that.

So what if I actually enjoy the story? So what if I enjoy the support conversations? So what if they're anime tropes?

You're a terrible person. ##first

It's totally cool that you love the story, though. I thought it had a lot of interesting ideas and wasn't really particularly offended by the less spectacular parts. Support conversations were entertaining for me, but I can see where the detractors are coming from (plus it says something that I don't really like viewing the same conversation twice, although that may just be because I'm playing FE13 a lot ATM and fuck redundancy). Don't really mind tropes if they're done well.

[Interceptor]

So, where's the part where everyone starts calling me a terrible person for loving the crap out of Awakening despite its flaws?

Always and forever, but never explicitly.

Not what you said.

Look at the paragraph before it; I said that I consider the supports to be like flashbacks unconnected to the present. That's because I've read them before, even though I skip them now. Every pie, every bout of gynophobia. Now, normally I'd expect someone to assume that they mis-read an ambiguous statement, but I get the feeling that's not gonna be the case here.

Way to dodge my point in order to needlessly and meritlessly bash on the other titles.

You said I wouldn't care (slick powers of prediction!), I said there's no way to know, because there's never been a Fire Emblem that qualified. What was your "point"? Take this opportunity to re-state it.

I challenge you to point out to me where I said "I don't understand what this means", rather than "your post is literally nonsensical and stupid"

Usually when someone says that "X doesn't make sense", when X does actually make sense, I presume that I need to convey the point a little better. So I did!

Enough that it can't be quantified with a meaningless number rating system.

The number system was just something I came up with to explain the point; it's not relevant by itself. I can keep throwing out examples until you get it, I don't mind. Maybe a chart?

[Constable Reggie]

Look at the paragraph before it; I said that I consider the supports to be like flashbacks unconnected to the present. That's because I've read them before, even though I skip them now. Every pie, every bout of gynophobia. Now, normally I'd expect someone to assume that they mis-read an ambiguous statement, but I get the feeling that's not gonna be the case here.

About as ambiguous as assuming I'm an idiot that can't understand your posts, rather than understanding that I flat out said it's nonsensical (definition: makes no sense).

You said I wouldn't care (slick powers of prediction!), I said there's no way to know, because there's never been a Fire Emblem that qualified. What was your "point"? Take this opportunity to re-state it.

"based on your posts, it seems as though you don't give a shit about the stories in fe games, even if one was objectively amazing. Why are you bothering to argue about story elements in the first place?"

"lol all the fe games stories suck"

Usually when someone says that "X doesn't make sense", when X does actually make sense, I presume that I need to convey the point a little better. So I did!

Ah yes, your post may seem to make sense to you, but it came off as idiotic to me. I'll explain my point in your language:

post make no sense to nobody but you

The number system was just something I came up with to explain the point; it's not relevant by itself. I can keep throwing out examples until you get it, I don't mind. Maybe a chart?

My point remains: there's no such thing as a bottom standard for bad stories and story elements.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Interceptor]

About as ambiguous as assuming I'm an idiot that can't understand your posts, rather than understanding that I flat out said it's nonsensical (definition: makes no sense).

Don't be so hard on yourself; this is an opportunity for a learning experience. The next time that you see something that's off ("what? Interceptor has never read the story, even though he's been arguing about it for pages?"), rather than trust your initial assumption, maybe either ask for clarification or look for context clues.

"based on your posts, it seems as though you don't give a shit about the stories in fe games, even if one was objectively amazing. Why are you bothering to argue about story elements in the first place?"

You would have gotten a different answer if you had asked this instead. That answer would be: "your assumption about my level caring is wrong". I like the stories even though they are bad -- perhaps because they are bad -- and I would miss them if they were gone. Although rarely do I feel inclined to repeat them.

Except for the BKxIke convo in 3-7, which is always kind of badass.

Ah yes, your post may seem to make sense to you, but it came off as idiotic to me.

Yes, which is why I re-worded it for clarity. Getting the gist across is important, if at all possible. I'm convinced it's not a lost cause.

My point remains: there's no such thing as a bottom standard for bad stories and story elements.

Or rather, your point changed. If you've given up on the magnitude thing, it's fine to move on. I'll graciously interpret "flip comment" as "concession of point", since I know real ones can be uncomfortable.

[Constable Reggie]

I think I understand now why you've completely ignored every post that said you were pretentious (except for the ones you responded to with complete pretentiousness).

I'll do the same with yours now.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[arvilino]

So, where's the part where everyone starts calling me a terrible person for loving the crap out of Awakening despite its flaws? I mean crap, I still love the story even if it has so many holes in it that it looks like it's been shot with a machine gun.

...In all seriousness, why does everyone need the feel to point out every time that "Awakening's story is shit". We know that.

So what if I actually enjoy the story? So what if I enjoy the support conversations? So what if they're anime tropes?

For goodness sake, the story was enjoyable enough on my first playthrough.

I cried on Chapter 10's music and what happened.

Does that mean I have terrible taste?

Am I as bad as a twilight fan?

I got my money's worth out of the game.

And you all know I spent more money on this game than all of you combined.

You brought it on yourself by revealing the plot details/spoilers months in advance of the western release I think. I didn't say it then, but you essentially opened the flood gates for anyone who wanted to claim the story was predictable/bad while knowing the plot ahead of time.

When it's pretty popular to be cynical about every new video game entry in a long series you'd basically given away a gift to anyone looking to trash the story in that they could avoid any surprise/intrigue while pretending the previous games all had some sort of airtight story.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

You brought it on yourself by revealing the plot details/spoilers months in advance of the western release I think. I didn't say it then, but you essentially opened the flood gates for anyone who wanted to claim the story was predictable/bad while knowing the plot ahead of time.

When it's pretty popular to be cynical about every new video game entry in a long series you'd basically given away a gift to anyone looking to trash the story in that they could avoid any surprise/intrigue while pretending the previous games all had some sort of airtight story.

Where the hell did you get that from? Who did anything like what you claim? Oh right, pretty much no one.

[Hamicsat]

You brought it on yourself by revealing the plot details/spoilers months in advance of the western release I think. I didn't say it then, but you essentially opened the flood gates for anyone who wanted to claim the story was predictable/bad while knowing the plot ahead of time.

When it's pretty popular to be cynical about every new video game entry in a long series you'd basically given away a gift to anyone looking to trash the story in that they could avoid any surprise/intrigue while pretending the previous games all had some sort of airtight story.

Maybe I'm missing some important context, but I don't understand this logic. Because SOC revealed the story early, people criticized it more? Would they think Awakening's story was better if they hadn't read it all ahead of time?

Also, even if he "brought it on himself", I don't think it's too unreasonable to stop kicking the dead horse a year and a half after the game was released internationally.

[arvilino]

Maybe I'm missing some important context, but I don't understand this logic. Because SOC revealed the story early, people criticized it more? Would they think Awakening's story was better if they hadn't read it all ahead of time?

Probably, if you got all of the spoilers revealed it's pretty simple to go "oh well I could see [insert spoiler] coming from a mile away" and claim the game is predictable.

If the story was universally panned I couldn't make this claim, but it's mostly limited to Serenesforest and GameFAQs.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Constable Reggie]

Predictability is the least of Awakening's worries

[arvilino]

Predictability is the least of Awakening's worries

Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have many worries, but it does have worriers.

[RJWalker]

Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have many worries, but it does have worriers.

No, it has plenty of worries. Worriers don't come out of nowhere.

[Constable Reggie]

Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't have many worries, but it does have worriers.

Worrying about the worries makes the worriers look worried

[shadowofchaos]

You brought it on yourself by revealing the plot details/spoilers months in advance of the western release I think. I didn't say it then, but you essentially opened the flood gates for anyone who wanted to claim the story was predictable/bad while knowing the plot ahead of time.

When it's pretty popular to be cynical about every new video game entry in a long series you'd basically given away a gift to anyone looking to trash the story in that they could avoid any surprise/intrigue while pretending the previous games all had some sort of airtight story.

So uhhh... what?

Okay.

But where does that put people like Westbrick?

You know... the people who praised the game to hell and back because they couldn't read a damn word of Japanese?

And then turns around and criticizes it to the point where it's obvious that they actually had fun with the gameplay but won't admit it anymore because the story is a reason to crap all over it?

I kept away from spoilers until I got a copy of the game.

...Other people's fault for not doing what I did and stayed somewhere like the FE4 thread.

I have no fault in any of this.

People would have looked for info on it regardless if I made videos or not when the 3DS capture cards came out.

Edited June 9, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Hamicsat]

So uhhh... what?

Okay.

But where does that put people like Westbrick?

You know... the people who praised the game to hell and back because they couldn't read a damn word of Japanese?

And then turns around and criticizes it to the point where it's obvious that they actually had fun with the gameplay but won't admit it anymore because the story is a reason to crap all over it?

I kept away from spoilers until I got a copy of the game.

...Other people's fault for not doing what I did and stayed somewhere like the FE4 thread.

I have no fault in any of this.

People would have looked for info on it regardless if I made videos or not when the 3DS capture cards came out.

Don't mean to be lazy, but... this.

[arvilino]

No, it has plenty of worries. Worriers don't come out of nowhere.

Since they always come from totally rational cases like being offended about Tiki being a bad riser.

So uhhh... what?

Okay.

But where does that put people like Westbrick?

You know... the people who praised the game to hell and back because they couldn't read a damn word of Japanese?

And then turns around and criticizes it to the point where it's obvious that they actually had fun with the gameplay but won't admit it anymore because the story is a reason to crap all over it?

I kept away from spoilers until I got a copy of the game.

...Other people's fault for not doing what I did and stayed somewhere like the FE4 thread.

Westbrick was just being really insecure, before he did a 180 on his opinion of the game he freaked out about the characters/dialogue being "anime"(edit: come to think of it, I think he had a problem with characters being "JRPG") and made a bunch of topics about it. Then he tried to combat claims that Lunatic mode was impossible without grinding and Nosferatu by saying he'd beat it in the course of a few days(without having beat the mode prior without the nosferatu) and setting a lot of restrictions and then got frustrated/failed during chapter 16(which isn't even the biggest difficulty spike).

I said at one point on GameFAQs that his opinion of the game changed so much because he essentially tortured himself with that playthrough, since he didn't even know which units he was best off using(I even told him at one point he should have used Panne(or Velvet if I remember the japanese name correctly) as a dracoknight which he dismissed as unusable despite the reality).

If people had read what he said it would have been clear he was just being strange and spouting things he didn't even know was true. He banned children chapters from his "true Lunatic" playthrough despite saying they were impossible before completing the game on Hard/Lunatic without grinding(which is clearly false). But as I said internet discussion in long running series kind of favour the cynical edge whether it's true or not.

Edited June 9, 2014 by arvilino

[Loki Laufeyson]

Wasn't a complicated point: keep your eye on the fundamental argument, not the speaker. Or don't; makes no difference to this poster.

Rubbish, you jumped the shark awhile ago and now you make no sense. I was with you until you did this, mate. You need to get a hold of your argument cuz you lost it a while ago. Which is a true pity cuz i usually like most of your posts. Not sure if i can take you too seriously after this cuz...wow mang. The rails...you left em.

I was speaking for myself. Awakening's story is so bad that I can't enjoy the game anymore. Pressing start gets boring after a while.

Pity, but this makes MUCH MORE SENSE than Interceptor's whole argument. Can i ask a question, though? Why is story so important to you in a video game? For me, its always secondary to gameplay. So if a game's gameplay is amazing but its story is meh, im still gonna like it for the most part. Ive played some games that have a really great story but suffer in gameplay. (or theres not enough gameplay. Metal Gear Solid 4, im looking at you...) So i get soured a bit on the game as a whole if the gameplay isnt fun. Ill play it once and go "yeah good story. Meh gameplay. wont play again." Ideally, a game should be good on both fronts. (See Xenoblade for an example. Also Chrono Trigger.) But i weigh gameplay over story every time.

So, where's the part where everyone starts calling me a terrible person for loving the crap out of Awakening despite its flaws? I mean crap, I still love the story even if it has so many holes in it that it looks like it's been shot with a machine gun.

...In all seriousness, why does everyone need the feel to point out every time that "Awakening's story is shit". We know that.
So what if I actually enjoy the story? So what if I enjoy the support conversations? So what if they're anime tropes?

For goodness sake, the story was enjoyable enough on my first playthrough.
I cried on Chapter 10's music and what happened.

Does that mean I have terrible taste?
Am I as bad as a twilight fan?

I got my money's worth out of the game.

And you all know I spent more money on this game than all of you combined.

No you arent as bad as a Twilight fan or a drooling moron. It just means you like some glurgy, sugary stuff once in a while. Hell, i like a lot of bad stuff unironically and not fucks are given. I like a lot of the supports to be honest. Like i like Virion's support with Lissa. I also love his supports with Cherche. I like Nah. I like Owain's support with Cynthia a lot. To the point where they ended up married on the file where they are cousins. loool. I like how Lucina came out of the sky and i ad-lib a line for Lissa saying "LOOK CHROM, THE SKY HAD A BABY!" ala Patrick from Spongebob. Some parts are bad. Some parts are good. Some parts are just hilarious. (Sumia punching Chrom)

I got my money's worth from the game too. And i love some of the fanfic thats come out of it. *looks at Boron*

[NoNameAtAll]

The Jugdral games are the only ones where story meant shit to me. And even then, FE4 Gen 2 doesn't fall under that. I'm not going off saying Awakening has ZOMG BEST STORY EVAR, but I still chuckle at the people who think the series as a whole has great stories. I'm sorry, but I really can't help it. At least this game gives all of the playable characters a fairly decent personality with more than a couple small parts of dialogue. In terms of supports anyway. Main story has the same issue as any with only focusing on a small number of characters.

That's just me though.

Also this topic screams "Why do people like something I don't like?" and vice versa.

Edited June 9, 2014 by NoNameAtAll

[Chiki]

Rubbish, you jumped the shark awhile ago and now you make no sense. I was with you until you did this, mate. You need to get a hold of your argument cuz you lost it a while ago. Which is a true pity cuz i usually like most of your posts. Not sure if i can take you too seriously after this cuz...wow mang. The rails...you left em.

This paragraph sounds like it was written by a kid, both in content and in form.

In terms of the story, it's pretty clear Awakening is a lot worse than many other games. Just look at FE9 and FE7. There's a lot of character development in both games. The main problem with the story in Awakening is that it's really similar to many other Fire Emblem games: someone important to the main character dies, the lord and his team take on an evil empire and kill an evil dragon brought back to life. Nothing about that is special. At least FE9, FE7, FE5, FE10 and FE4 (at least the first part) all tried to do something different. The worst part is that the Avatar is a complete Mary Sue who has no flaws whatsoever. I doubt anyone can name a single flaw or a mistake of the Avatar's.

The gameplay is probably the most broken out of any FE game. You know there's something wrong with the game when there's a lot of people effortlessly duoing Lunatic mode with the Avatar and Chrom.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

In terms of the story, it's pretty clear Awakening is a lot worse than many other games. Just look at FE9 and FE7. There's a lot of character development in both games.

IKR? Lowen talking about missing breakfast... got me right in the feels.

The main problem with the story in Awakening is that it's really similar to many other Fire Emblem games: someone important to the main character dies, the lord and his team take on an evil empire and kill an evil dragon brought back to life. Nothing about that is special. At least FE9, FE7, FE5, FE10 and FE4 (at least the first part) all tried to do something different.

This is a pretty simplistic way of looking at the story. I feel as though if you're going to give credit to other FE titles for trying "something different", you really need to make mention of the fact that Awakening has time-traveling children from a ruined future where the good guys lost.

The worst part is that the Avatar is a complete Mary Sue who has no flaws whatsoever. I doubt anyone can name a single flaw or a mistake of the Avatar's.

I usually go with -SKL.

The gameplay is probably the most broken out of any FE game. You know there's something wrong with the game when there's a lot of people effortlessly duoing Lunatic mode with the Avatar and Chrom.

This is probably true, although I'd argue it's tempered by the fact that 1) most of the modern titles get easy with low-man/over-leveling tactics, and 2) Lunatic+ unravels most of the "effortlessness" of that strategy. In other words, it's been busted for a while, but this game actually has a difficulty where it's not particularly easy to execute.

[RJWalker]

This is a pretty simplistic way of looking at the story. I feel as though if you're going to give credit to other FE titles for trying "something different", you really need to make mention of the fact that Awakening has time-traveling children from a ruined future where the good guys lost.

While I'm not concerned with stories being 'different', the good guys in an alternate future losing is a cop out. "Oh your characters didn't really die, that's just an alternate future." No, this time travel thing is a bad case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It tries to be tragic like FE4 but it doesn't really have the guts to actually kill of playable characters.

[Interceptor]

While I'm not concerned with stories being 'different', the good guys in an alternate future losing is a cop out. "Oh your characters didn't really die, that's just an alternate future." No, this time travel thing is a bad case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

What would be a good case of eating your cake and still having it? Just for comparison's sake.

It tries to be tragic like FE4 but it doesn't really have the guts to actually kill of playable characters.

Nice qualifier; otherwise you'd have to acknowledge that a story-important character martyred herself on the base of a cliff. That would have been awkward.

No really, killing playables would be silly. Didn't we learn this lesson in Final Fantasy 7?

Edited June 9, 2014 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

IKR? Lowen talking about missing breakfast... got me right in the feels.

Lol. There was a plenty of character development for Hector. He matures into a proper leader after starting off as a reckless, arrogant noble. The same goes for Eliwood (we actually see him going through the pain of the death of a family member and the "death" of Ninian unlike Chrom, who's just angry and barely even cares that Emmeryn is "dead").

We can't say the same for FE13. There were plenty of chances for some form of development: for example, when the Avatar comes up and goes through with a particularly horrific strategy (I believe it involved lighting enemy ships on fire and killing a lot of people). We could've seen the moral consequences for the Avatar, and how much he/she feels bad for killing enemy soldiers, but we see nothing. We hardly see Chrom getting over Emmeryn's "death." None of the main characters are interesting in the slightest: Chrom and Lucina are robotic and emotionless while the Avatar is by far the greatest Mary Sue in all of Fire Emblem.

This is a pretty simplistic way of looking at the story. I feel as though if you're going to give credit to other FE titles for trying "something different", you really need to make mention of the fact that Awakening has time-traveling children from a ruined future where the good guys lost.

I'm giving them credit for trying something different other than the general formula. FE13 doesn't change that formula. The main plot still remains the same regardless.

FE4 gen 1: Most of the main characters die.

FE7: There's no evil empire and no dark dragon being brought back from death.

FE9: The main character is a mercenary, and there's no dark dragon being brought back from death.

FE10: You fight a goddess instead of a dark dragon, and no one close to the main characters dies

Many good things can be said about FE13. The postgame is by far the best of any FE game, it has good character concepts and designs and great support conversations.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Chiki

[ZemZem]

IKR? Lowen talking about missing breakfast... got me right in the feels.

Is that the best example you can come up with? Come on now.

There are plenty of great supports in FE7, such as Matthew/Jaffar, all of Renault's, Pent/Fiora, Hector/Serra, Oswin/Priscilla, and Dorcas/Vaida. Yeah, some supports aren't really good, like Eliwood/Lowen, but there's more great than lackluster in this case.