Why is Marth so different?

[Logience]

In FE3, he was basically everyone's favorite messiah-to-be, and everyone pampered him and loved him and talked his head off for being Hero-King by divine right. In 11, he has actual emotions, doesn't just sit quietly during infodumps, and then there's that whole scene in Chapter 13 where he says he both hates and pities Gra and Grust.

Why?

[RJWalker]

Because Shadow Dragon has good writing. Marth is a much more believable character. He's human.

Of course, it's all wasted in FE12 when he's back to being a near helpless baby who needs constant reassuring from Avatar.

[Logience]

Because Shadow Dragon has good writing.

Excuse me, but I need to catalogue that so i can use that against you whenever anyone starts an "FE11 SUCKS" bandwagon.

[RJWalker]

Excuse me, but I need to catalogue that so i can use that against you whenever anyone starts an "FE11 SUCKS" bandwagon.

Pardon? Why would you use that against me? I do genuinely believe FE11 is a well written game.

[PuffPuff]

Because Shadow Dragon has good writing. Marth is a much more believable character. He's human.

Of course, it's all wasted in FE12 when he's back to being a near helpless baby who needs constant reassuring from Avatar.

^

That's what makes him great anyway. He can't stand seeing a poor soul lost. He just held it in all throughout last game. In FE's 1&3, they did no emotional script writing with him.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bimbo

[RJWalker]

I disagree. Marth is still the same in FE3 and FE12 except he's more whiny in the latter. From beginning to end, Marth is portrayed as a helpless baby in 12 when he was the exact opposite in 11. he was the one assuring people and giving them hope, not the other way around. He was confident but not overly so. He expressed enjoying in a much more human way. I find it hard to believe that Marth from 11 is supposed to be younger and less experienced and less mature than Marth from 12.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Ranger Jack Walker

[PuffPuff]

I disagree. Marth is still the same in FE3 and FE12 except he's more whiny in the latter. From beginning to end, Marth is portrayed as a helpless baby in 12 when he was the exact opposite in 11. he was the one assuring people and giving them hope, not the other way around. He was confident but not overly so. He expressed enjoying in a much more human way. I find it hard to believe that Marth from 11 is supposed to be younger and less experienced and less mature than Marth from 12.

Nobody really knows what has happened to him after he arranged a marriage with Caeda. But to go by assumption...he only went this way in the beginning for those who haven't played his first game.(Which almost, if not, everyone has already played it. Especially after Smash Bros.) Marth was younger in FE's1/3(Book 1)/11 and didn't understand what impact that it would bring to losing a soldier/friend as he has never set foot in real combat before. Only has undergone training beforehand with Elice, Jagan, Abel and Cain before the dark war started and has lived with.

It is simple how he became a more caring individual. The moment he touched the Falchion(Which only pure hearted Anri and his ancestors warriors can wield) as well as his trial throughout the dark war, it changed his personality forever. Cuz, if he had this feeling against canon characters like Camus, he'd need some assistance from Caeda. The Falchion is the same as the 8 fabled weapons in Elibe. Once it is touched by the destined, they still feel power from it even after it is put in it's place and away from them. (Athos says this about the divine weapons can change the destined later in FE7. Is what he meant by this is a road that you cannot go back to once done.) The Falchion is truly the "blade of light" as Marth still feels the light from it's power...even when it is not in his hands. Makes sense for where his baby attitude comes from in 12.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bimbo

[RJWalker]

Nobody really knows what has happened to him after he arranged a marriage with Caeda. But to go by assumption...he only went this way in the beginning for those who haven't played his first game.(Which almost, if not, everyone has already played it. Especially after Smash Bros.) Marth was younger in FE's1/3(Book 1)/11 and didn't understand what impact that it would bring to losing a soldier/friend as he has never set foot in real combat before. Only has undergone training beforehand with Elice, Jagan, Abel and Cain before the dark war started and has lived with.

It is simple how he became a more caring individual. The moment he touched the Falchion(Which only pure hearted Anri and his ancestors warriors can wield) as well as his trial throughout the dark war, it changed his personality forever. Cuz, if he had this feeling against canon characters like Camus, he'd need some assistance from Caeda. The Falchion is the same as the 8 fabled weapons in Elibe. Once it is touched by the destined, they still feel power from it even after it is put in it's place and away from them. (Athos says this about the divine weapons can change the destined later in FE7. Is what he meant by this is a road that you cannot go back to once done.) The Falchion is truly the "blade of light" as Marth still feels the light from it's power...even when it is not in his hands. Makes sense for where his baby attitude comes from in 12.

Where are you getting this? I don't remember anything about Falchion doing anything like that. The Falchion is nothing like that.

Marth was a younster in the prologue. He goes through loss and understands it well by the time the actual story of FE11 comes around. He says as much and expresses it clearly. Yet his personality never changes when he recieves the Falchion. There is nothing stated about it that says it does something like that.

Marth in FE11's prologue is a sheltered young boy whose world comes crashing down upon him in a single night. He losses his father, his mother and his sister as well his kingdom and is forced to flee, humbled and humiliated. But even then, he vows to come back and right the wrongs. After the short timeskip, Marth is not a better man. He's a confident individual with anger in his heart and a desire for revenge. Yet even he can find the time to snark (in a somewhat 'meta level too as he pokes fun at Malledus dumping exposition over him constantly about stuff he already knows but the player themself might not). As the war progresses, his hatred remains but seeing the realities of war changes him. Now it's no longer just hatred but even he doesn't know what he's feeling. He's also a capable commander. The strategies and tactics his army uses are largely implied to be Marth's own mind at work. By the time he recaptures his home, he realizes he must make certain sacrifices as Prince. In his own immortal words, "I am a Prince before a Son or a Brother." By the end of the war, he's a completely different person. He's matured now.

There is a clear character arc here. He grows as an individual. This is completely absent. There is no character development. Rather, there's character regression. Gone is the confident individual who assures people and gives them hope. Instead, we get a overly idealistic person who can't go a single chapter without being assured that he's doing the right thing. Gone is the confident young prince who realizes that sacrifices have to be made in war. Instead, we're left with a fool who constantly needs to save everyone. Elice even outright makes fun of him to Avatar who at that point is a nobody, just another knight wannabe and a complete stranger and yet Elice is going on about how Marth's a hopeless child that is supposed to be endearing but comes off as incredibly condescending.

Now it would be one thing if this was intentional and him being less mature than before was a plot point but no, FE12 treats Marth as always having been this way and completely ignores all the character development he goes through in that game.

And you're saying touching the Falchion caused this (despite there being zero proof)? Are you saying that the Falchion changed a confident military commander into an idealistic idiot? Wow, worst legendary weapon in the history of, well, everything. If that's the case, he would have been better off never getting the Falchion.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Possibly an issue of the way the fan translation was written versus an official translation, and improvement on the writers part for the remake (if anything was actually changed).

The Falchion is the same as the 8 fabled weapons in Elibe. Once it is touched by the destined, they still feel power from it even after it is put in it's place and away from them. (Athos says this about the divine weapons can change the destined later in FE7. Is what he meant by this is a road that you cannot go back to once done.) The Falchion is truly the "blade of light" as Marth still feels the light from it's power...even when it is not in his hands. Makes sense for where his baby attitude comes from in 12.

...No? It isn't. The Falchion is never stated to do this, by this assumption do the twin weapons do this? The crusader weapons? And I'm pretty sure it's Durban that brings this up the most, to Hector. He notes that with the power of the Armads he'll want battle and will be unable to satisfy his want for it. (you know.... like a berserker) (Not saying Atho's didn't say anything like that too)

The weapons in FE7/6 come from a different source anyway, Falchion and the Shield of Seals were a gift from Naga, while the FE7/6 weapons were forged by humans and were apparently powerful enough to screw up nature.

You're assuming way too much basing the Falchion off of the FE7/6 legendary weapons.

Edited June 22, 2014 by L95

[Jedi]

Its Ayanami don't be baited.

Yes fe11's writing is amazing we can all agree on that and that there wasn't nearly enough of it. Its why I love making head canon so much for it though

[Jotari]

Nobody really knows what has happened to him after he arranged a marriage with Caeda. But to go by assumption...he only went this way in the beginning for those who haven't played his first game.(Which almost, if not, everyone has already played it. Especially after Smash Bros.) Marth was younger in FE's1/3(Book 1)/11 and didn't understand what impact that it would bring to losing a soldier/friend as he has never set foot in real combat before. Only has undergone training beforehand with Elice, Jagan, Abel and Cain before the dark war started and has lived with.

It is simple how he became a more caring individual. The moment he touched the Falchion(Which only pure hearted Anri and his ancestors warriors can wield) as well as his trial throughout the dark war, it changed his personality forever. Cuz, if he had this feeling against canon characters like Camus, he'd need some assistance from Caeda. The Falchion is the same as the 8 fabled weapons in Elibe. Once it is touched by the destined, they still feel power from it even after it is put in it's place and away from them. (Athos says this about the divine weapons can change the destined later in FE7. Is what he meant by this is a road that you cannot go back to once done.) The Falchion is truly the "blade of light" as Marth still feels the light from it's power...even when it is not in his hands. Makes sense for where his baby attitude comes from in 12.

So Falchion causes Marth to suffer. Makes me extra glad I keep the Starsphere and never bother getting the Falchion in Shadow Dragon then.

After the short timeskip, Marth is not a better man. He's a confident individual with anger in his heart and a desire for revenge. As the war progresses, his hatred remains but seeing the realities of war changes him. Now it's no longer just hatred but even he doesn't know what he's feeling. He's also a capable commander. The strategies and tactics his army uses are largely implied to be Marth's own mind at work. By the time he recaptures his home, he realizes he must make certain sacrifices as Prince. In his own immortal words, "I am a Prince before a Son or a Brother." By the end of the war, he's a completely different person. He's matured now.

To provide a reference to this point, he outright says he use to hate his enemies at the end of the Wooden Cavalry chapter but due to the words of a villager (who you actually can visit in the chapter in one of the houses though Marth says the same thing regardless of whether you do or not) he now feels pity for his enemies and knows many of them are normal people just trying to defend their country. Yet he hasn't lost his resolve completely and the hate still remains. He also makes many references to Gharnef in negative light to show he really pits a lot more hatred and blame on the sorcerer over other people who screwed up the country like Michalis.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Jotari

[Subsonic]

I don't even remember that scene. To be fair, I skipped most of the cut scenes and dialogue from chapter 4 or five and onward. (I was very bored.)

[bottlegnomes]

Possibly an issue of the way the fan translation was written versus an official translation, and improvement on the writers part for the remake (if anything was actually changed).

This. As much as I appreciate everyone who worked on the FE12 translation for all of their hard work, their writing isn't as good as the translation team for FE11.

FE11 had very good writing; the plot structure was just kind of eh.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Possibly an issue of the way the fan translation was written versus an official translation, and improvement on the writers part for the remake (if anything was actually changed).

When FE12 first came out, multiple fans who weren't involved in the HOLAS translation team live-blogged selections from FE12 and they all came up with something pretty close to the full fan-translation when it comes to the "Marth is a damaged child" kind of stuff, like the Elice-MU scene in the prologue. It appears that the weird regression of Marth's character actually does exist in the FE12 script... now, maybe Shadow Dragon's own official localization made him more mature and confident than he was in the NoJ original? Is that possible?

[VincentASM]

I haven't played the two versions back to back, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FE11 localisation made Marth sound more mature/confident/arrogant (take your pick). NOA probably thought people prefer mature/edgy protagonists (and why wouldn't you?).

From what I've seen, the context is still the same though: Marth is always an angry boy in FE11. Just probably less expressive in the Japanese version. This was the game where he fought to reclaim his homeland after he lost it, his father and his sister to war.

No clue what happened in FE12 though. Maybe he mellowed after the war? Or Nintendo of Japan decided angry Marth wasn't appealing and reverted to FE1/3 Marth? Hey, they even changed his portrait to be more bishie than angsty.

[Jotari]

This was the game where he fought to reclaim his homeland after he lost it, his father and his sister to war.

You're forgetting about Liza, mammy Marth.

[Logience]

On that note, does anyone know what the translations for FE1's chapter 13 and Japan's version of FE11's Chapter 13 is?

Edited July 22, 2014 by Logience

[Chloe Neo]

He is more of a personality defined character in Shadow Dragon and as previously stated a helpless boy In Heroes of Light and Shadow.

[Goonachu]

When FE12 first came out, multiple fans who weren't involved in the HOLAS translation team live-blogged selections from FE12 and they all came up with something pretty close to the full fan-translation when it comes to the "Marth is a damaged child" kind of stuff, like the Elice-MU scene in the prologue. It appears that the weird regression of Marth's character actually does exist in the FE12 script... now, maybe Shadow Dragon's own official localization made him more mature and confident than he was in the NoJ original? Is that possible?

If that is the case, then if FE12 did come out in America then would it mean that Marth would be like his FE11 counterpart? Personally I like both iterations if Marth, though I did play Shadow dragon first, so I got a taste of serious Marth which personally seems more believable, but I still like child-like Marth to a extent.

[sirmola]

On that note, does anyone know what the translations for FE1's chapter 13 and Japan's version of FE11's Chapter 13 is?

I can't read japanese, but here is a link to chapter 13 of a lets play of the fan translation of fe1 which transcribes all text: http://lparchive.org/Fire-Emblem-Dark-Dragon-and-the-Sword-of-Light/Update%2014/

Marth has like one line on dialog.

Edited May 4, 2015 by sirmola

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

...Is it possible Marth is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder...?

Or maybe it's that Marth was always this innocent inside, but hid it behind a face of confidence during 11.

But PTSD sounds like it would be a good explanation if it's possible he does.

[RedEyedDrake]

Reposting my thoughts on the shift in characterization from a different topic:

I prefer to interpret said shift as Marth thinking things over during the time between the two wars and deciding that the people who did die under his command over the course of the War of Shadows did so because he didn't do enough for their survival. As in, he thinks that if he pushed himself even further than he ended up pushing he could have prevented even more deaths and other such disasters, but that he didn't. That the effort he did put in wasn't good enough, that he could have, should have, done even better but that he didn't, that he "chose" not to. Hence the shaken persona we see.

Plus, based on what he knows, the Archanean League has already saved the seven kingdoms from Dolhr. But now this peace is being disturbed again? A mere one/two years later? And by Archanea? By Hardin? I can see how that can be a hard pill to swallow given the sacrifices of the previous war and how Hardin was practically second in command of the League.

These two things are what keeps me sane when thinking about the shift from FE11 to FE12, anyway.

Edited June 6, 2015 by RedEyedDrake

[Dronagon]

At first I though the exact same thing, but now I realise that the only difference is that he acts more human, which is actually an improvement if you ask me.