Once upon a time there was a tier list

[Randa]

So ressurecting the long dead tier discussion for FE13, because I feel like the old list didn't really work with the current view of the game. The major outline for rules and the actual list itself are taken from SDS's list.

Let's have some fun.

Difficulty: Hard Mode. Lunatic and Lunatic+ are a bit too constraining for there to be a worthwhile tier list for it, and any lunatic tier list would likely be just a more extreme version of the current tier list.

Efficiency: We are moving at a brisk pace, but this isn't an absolute minimum LTC tier list. No "character <x> shaves a turn in chapter <y>" arguments here. Do not argue over what defines efficiency please.

Paralogues: Assume all available are completed. Paralogues are done as early as possible. The more difficult child paralogues may be delayed due to map difficulty.

Barracks: Not allowed.

Skirmishes / DLC / Spotpass Battles/Shops: Not allowed.

Map Shopping: Allowed, but you may not buy Anna Shop special items.

Event Tiles: No items obtained from event tiles are allowed to be used. Supports / EXP gain can be pushed forward slightly by them, but otherwise no real impact.

Renown: Assume 0 renown start. That means the following items are obtainable via Renown at the following times:

Glass Sword (after Chapter 4)

Second Seal (after Paralogue 3)

Orsin's Hatchet (after Chapter 11)

Seed of Trust (4 maps after Chapter 13)

Levin Sword (6 maps after Seed of Trust)

Energy Drop (6 maps after Levin Sword)

Beast Killer (7 maps after Energy Drop)

Non-Lucina children will have a list made up for them at a later time. It may not be based on efficient play but rather min-max, I don't know at this point.

God of The New World:

Avatar

S Tier:

Sumia

Cordelia

Sully

Frederick

Lucina (Avatar)

A Tier:

Panne

Chrom

Stahl

Lon'qu

Lucina (Sully / Sumia)

Nowi

B Tier:

Tharja

Libra

Cherche

Olivia

Lucina (Anyone Else)

Vaike

Anna

Gregor

Gaius

C Tier:

Say'ri

Tiki

Miriel

Kellam

Lissa

Maribelle

Henry

D Tier:

Virion

Ricken

Donnel

Basilio

Flavia

Please keep discussion somewhat civilized. Aside from that have at ye.

[Red Falcon]

Could someone explain what this all means to a newbie like me please? :)

[Nik]

I think Vaike should be higher in the list, his defense skyrockets as a hero and he can grab sol and axebreaker, then just reclass into berserker and he is almost unstoppable.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Nik

[Randa]

Well difficulty is the mode we judge the rankings off of. Efficiency indicates that the game will be played with some form of speed, ie not super turtle grinding. Paralogues are to be played as soon as they are available with the exception of some of the children paralogues.

The rest should be intuitive. As a descriptive the tiers are ranked from s-d with s being the best. And avatar is a god so they get their own tier.

[Bloo]

I think Miriel should be considerably higher, because once you reclass the avatar (because he should get the Renown seal, even if it is just one chapter prior to the seals in Chap 8) she is the strongest magic user in the two sand maps. Also, she is very effective (with the correct pair up) on the knights in Chaps 3 & 4, so she should probably be trained as a secondary magic user to avatar right from obtaining her, in my opinion.

[lazydoggamer]

Panne should be S-tier. She easily one of the best units in the game after reclassing to wyvern rider. She gets amazing offense, has flying utility, and will be the only flyer that doesn't suffer from weapon triangle against all those wyvern riders that show up during the plegia arc. E axes aren't that big of an issue since they're the strongest weapon type and you can give her a cheap bronze or ladle forge. When Valm comes around she just gets even better since she now has a decent axe rank and is facing a bunch of lance enemies.

[Randa]

I think Vaike should be higher in the list, his defense skyrockets as a hero and he can grab sol and axebreaker, then just reclass into berserker and he is almost unstoppable.

I can't justify putting vaike higher than b rank. He needs to wait till at least chapter 10 to get a master seal and then units like sully, panne, sumia, or Cordelia want it more and give higher pay out with the master seal. So his actual promotion time is around chapter 13. He just doesn't have the time to get his defense up. Not to mention six base speed means he needs Lon'gu as partner or he won't be doubling for a while.

I think Miriel should be considerably higher, because once you reclass the avatar (because he should get the Renown seal, even if it is just one chapter prior to the seals in Chap 8) she is the strongest magic user in the two sand maps. Also, she is very effective (with the correct pair up) on the knights in Chaps 3 & 4, so she should probably be trained as a secondary magic user to avatar right from obtaining her, in my opinion.

Usually the first second seal will go to panne or sully for a wyvern in desert maps. If anything avatar gets the chapter master seal. However Miriel does have decent stats and the option for a quick promotion for rescue. But all of that can also be said of Ricken. I might move her up to lower b.

Panne should be S-tier. She easily one of the best units in the game after reclassing to wyvern rider. She gets amazing offense, has flying utility, and will be the only flyer that doesn't suffer from weapon triangle against all those wyvern riders that show up during the plegia arc. E axes aren't that big of an issue since they're the strongest weapon type and you can give her a cheap bronze or ladle forge. When Valm comes around she just gets even better since she now has a decent axe rank and is facing a bunch of lance enemies.

The only problem that I have with putting panne up in s-tier is that the rest of the tier can do their jobs without a second seal. Obviously sully wants one, and panne becomes monstrous once she's reclassed, but she requires a reclass. Which makes a bit hesitant to put he in that specific tier. Edited July 17, 2014 by Janus bet valnich

[Bloo]

I can't justify putting vaike higher than b rank. He needs to wait till at least chapter 10 to get a master seal and then units like sully, panne, sumia, or Cordelia want it more and give higher pay out with the master seal. So his actual promotion time is around chapter 13. He just doesn't have the time to get his defense up. Not to mention six base speed means he needs Lon'gu as partner or he won't be doubling for a while.

Usually the first second seal will go to panne or sully for a wyvern in desert maps. If anything avatar gets the chapter master seal. However Miriel does have decent stats and the option for a quick promotion for rescue. But all of that can also be said of Ricken. I might move her up to lower b.

And yet Ricken comes later, and has a much lower Speed stat. Even with a pairup, he can't be doubling enemies that Miriel can.

[Randa]

And yet Ricken comes later, and has a much lower Speed stat. Even with a pairup, he can't be doubling enemies that Miriel can.

Hence the reason why she's a tier above Ricken.

[Interceptor]

Meh, Hard mode. I think this mode is too easy at this point of Awakening's life; pretty much everyone is good if you aren't terribly constrained by turncounts, even Donnel.

Nice to see N.O.W.I. properly represented in A-tier, though, since she used to be massively underrated.

[Bloo]

Hence the reason why she's a tier above Ricken.

I said that because you made a counter argument that Ricken could do the same thing as Miriel when promoted.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Meh, Hard mode. I think this mode is too easy at this point of Awakening's life; pretty much everyone is good if you aren't terribly constrained by turncounts, even Donnel.

Nice to see N.O.W.I. properly represented in A-tier, though, since she used to be massively underrated.

I completely agree.

And I, uh, also don't play by a single one of the conditions outlined in the OP. So I can't really comment on whether I think certain units need to be moved up or down. However, I can remind you why tier lists in general don't work out for this game: the gameplay is complex enough that changing even a single condition completely changes who is great and who is useless. This list might be fine for Hard with a ton of anti-RNG restrictions, but it clearly won't work for Lunatic(+). Remove one of those restrictions (say, spotpass shops) and watch the list be flipped on its head.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think there's any style of play that's widespread enough for a tier list to be of much use. If there was, it would be Secret Apo with no restrictions, but even that's incredibly complicated because pairings make or break units and you'd have to rate each possible pairing.

That's all I've got to say. Have fun, guys.

[Nik]

Meh, Hard mode. I think this mode is too easy at this point of Awakening's life; pretty much everyone is good if you aren't terribly constrained by turncounts, even Donnel.

Nice to see N.O.W.I. properly represented in A-tier, though, since she used to be massively underrated.

Yep, hard mode is really close to normal in terms of difficulty, the only time i had problems was during the plegia/valm transition because my units were really underleveled. Lunatic is definitely one step ahead.

[Zkirsche]

The only problem that I have with putting panne up in s-tier is that the rest of the tier can do their jobs without a second seal. Obviously sully wants one, and panne becomes monstrous once she's reclassed, but she requires a reclass. Which makes a bit hesitant to put he in that specific tier.

The thing is, Lucina(Avatar) is in S and she comes 7 chapters later, also requires a second seal to get flight and still misses the two best chapters which appreciated flight anyway. If we're not using a second seal on Lucina then she's rekt by mov disadvantage anyway.

Meh, Hard mode. I think this mode is too easy at this point of Awakening's life; pretty much everyone is good if you aren't terribly constrained by turncounts, even Donnel.

True, but PoR was pretty easy but we made it work.

[Randa]

The thing is, Lucina(Avatar) is in S and she comes 7 chapters later, also requires a second seal to get flight and still misses the two best chapters which appreciated flight anyway. If we're not using a second seal on Lucina then she's rekt by mov disadvantage anyway.True, but PoR was pretty easy but we made it work.

All valid points but I'm seeing more along the lines of move Lucina down rather than move panne up. Not sure what others think so I'd like to hear opinions on which one should move.

[Zkirsche]

I'm ok to move Lucina down, still think Panne should be S though.

Do we have enemy stats because it's hard to compare characters unless I know how important leads and stuff actually are. If there are none then we should just make this a lunatic list because those stats exist and the ones that don't are easy to find bar paralogue.

[Randa]

[spoiler=really long url]http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://kamikouryaku.com/fe/kakusei/%3F1%25BE%25CF%2520%25BA%25D5%25A4%25AB%25A4%25EC%25A4%25BF%25C6%25FC%25BE%25EF%2520%25A5%25EB%25A5%25CA%25A5%25C6%25A5%25A3%25A5%25C3%25A5%25AF&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://kamikouryaku.com/fe/kakusei/%253F1%2525BE%2525CF%252520%2525BA%2525D5%2525A4%2525AB%2525A4%2525EC%2525A4%2525BF%2525C6%2525FC%2525BE%2525EF%252520%2525A5%2525EB%2525A5%2525CA%2525A5%2525C6%2525A5%2525A3%2525A5%2525C3%2525A5%2525AF%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D671

This should be good for all the info we need.

[Czar_Yoshi]

The forum automatically shortens really long URLs to make them more readable.

Don't forget that there's a slight random variation in enemy stats on Normal/Hard. It's not too big of a deal, but could be problematic if you're looking at, say, exact values for doubling.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Zkirsche]

For that we can look at averages.

Don't feel like making a proper comparison atm but maybe tomorrow? What are the usual pairings for Sully/Panne anyway (Aside from Avatar), Stahl/Lon'qu?

[Xator Nova]

questions:

- wasn't gregor considered useless?

- shouldn't libra / anna move up due to being a rescue user?

[lazydoggamer]

So after looking over the list some more I've been thinking Anna needs to go above Cherche in B tier

Anna outclasses Gaius and joins just in time for chests to start popping up again. She has some of the best movement on your team thanks to mov+1 and eventually acrobat which is useful for thief utility, healing, and participating in rescue chains. She's also the only unit other than the avatar who can actually use the Levin Sword and can be a pretty good dodge tank thanks to Lucky Seven. Her lack of supports does suck but considering she's helping the team in ways other than combat I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Cherche has a base 12 speed that doesn't double anything except kinghts on the map she joins unless she's given a speed tonic and a lon'qu pairup. However Lon'qu is in high demand for supporting so I doubt she's getting him. She's pretty much restricted to getting her exp from hammering knights and she has to worry about the bow knights on the map. The next chapter is easily one turned and chapter 14 has her restricted to hammering knights again. She needs babying and a speed support at time when your team should mostly be set, I'm just not seeing how she's higher than Anna.

[MRDRHAWK]

Cherche is better because Gerome, better weapon type (swords are kinda bad in this game) and flight utility. Better strength in the long term helps too.

[lazydoggamer]

Cherche is better because Gerome, better weapon type (swords are kinda bad in this game) and flight utility. Better strength in the long term helps too.

Anna actually has better combat than Cherche if she uses a Levin Sword which she pretty much has dibs on since the rest of your sword users suck using it. At base stats they both have 28 attack if Anna uses a Levin Sword and Cherche uses a steel axe. However Anna can reliablely double without a pair up for a long time and she targets res so she deals more damage and that's not even taking into account her level lead. The Levin sword does have fairly limited uses and she doesn't get support bonuses but combat isn't her main job so it's more forgivable. Her real worth comes from her thief utility, healing, and ability to take part in rescue chains.

Cherche on the other hand can only offer combat utility and not even that good combat either. She needs a support from either Gaius or Lon'qu to start doubling in a reasonable amount of time but why should I bother saving either of them just for her when Tharja and Nowi like the speed they give? Why should I add another flier when I can have 3-4 flyers with better stats and dedicated supports by the time she joins? She's a combat unit that brings nothing new to the table.

Edited July 19, 2014 by lazydoggamer

[MRDRHAWK]

for the most part though Anna's outclassed by several other people in everything (Gaius has three more chapters of thieving, Lon'qu's a better swordie and if you want a sword user to hit Res, just use a GM Avatar).

unless you use Panne or reclass Nowi, you're not getting a better wyvern rider than Cherche. yes, she kinda needs a bit to get going, but the game gives you plenty of chances to get her started with all the armour knights they toss at you in those chapters. plus, Cherche actually has support options, whereas Anna gets nothing but an MU support and a late-game option in Tiki, who's probably not seeing use late game because of Nowi.

[Elieson]

Cherche has easy deliverer access