Malaysian Plane Shot Down

[Anacybele]

That's right, another one's been taken out. And they still never found the first one that disappeared, as far as I know. This one's all over TV too, just like the last Malaysian plane. Except with one major difference. This one didn't just mysteriously vanish, it was literally shot down, with no survivors.

But this has got to be the most fucked up shit since 9/11. What do people get out of taking down innocent eastern flights like this and causing a lot of families terrible pain?

And now, people in southeastern Asia likely won't want to fly to and from Malaysia anymore because of their planes being targeted. But can you really blame them?

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Yeah, been reading up about it on other sites earlier today.

It really sucks(it's on an entire other level than "sucks" but I am not good with the articulation...).

[ZemZem]

I read about it earlier on Yahoo. This is very depressing news...

[Phoenix Wright]

tragic news indeed, in many ways.

tensions between israel and palestine are rising, and tensions between ukraine and russia are rising too.

i fear, perhaps irrationally, that tensions will become too high. the united states is diplomatically invested in these nation-states as well, which makes it all the more concerning for me.

not to mention the innocents dead or dying.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[Hawk King]

I just hope Obama and other world leaders stay out of this.

Otherwise this could be the start of WW3.

[Naughx]

Military powers has a weird tendancy of shooting down commercial airplanes.

Not only Russia or the U.S.

And this doesn't mean it's from the Russian side... That would be quite stupid on their part, they've nothing to benefit from it.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Naughx

[euklyd]

@L95 - idk "sucks" is the same word I'd use her as well

maybe with a side helping of "tragic"

this is just pretty awful all-around

I just hope Obama and other world leaders stay out of this.

Otherwise this could be the start of WW3.

This is a really terrible way to look at anything. You can be involved without going far enough to provoke war.

If you stay out of things you do actually have an interest in, then when do you stop?

If you send a message that you're too afraid of ~starting WW3~ then you encourage people to push you on other things.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Euklyd

[Anacybele]

You'd be surprised at what kinds of things can lead to massive wars, actually. A simple assassination was what started the climb to the first world war, after all.

[Tryhard]

This is a really terrible way to look at anything. You can be involved without going far enough to provoke war.

If you stay out of things you do actually have an interest in, then when do you stop?

If you send a message that you're too afraid of ~starting WW3~ then you encourage people to push you on other things.

Appeasement after the first WW also ended up being a major influence on how WW2 was eventually started.

[euklyd]

You'd be surprised at what kinds of things can lead to massive wars, actually. A simple assassination was what started the climb to the first world war, after all.

Technically the assassination is what ended the climb. The leadup to war had been going on long before longer than the assassination; it was just a convenient spark.

It's also a lot more explosive than anything that !!obama and the other world leaders!! would consider doing.

You don't need to assassinate Vladimir Putin to be "involved" in Ukraine.

Appeasement after the first WW also ended up being a major influence on how WW2 was eventually started.

I figured someone else would bring that up :V

[Randa]

Personally speaking I think this'll just be another piece building towards WW III. I figure it's all but inevitable at this point. History will look back and compare this to the reseizure of Hungary by the nazis. Least that's the way I see it. Yeah appeasement. So effective.

[Naughx]

Personally speaking I think this'll just be another piece building towards WW III. I figure it's all but inevitable at this point. History will look back and compare this to the reseizure of Hungary by the nazis. Least that's the way I see it. Yeah appeasement. So effective.

If there is anything remaining to compare with.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Naughx

[Lance Masayoshi]

I thought this was about the first one, I didn't realize there was a second one. Holy shit, that's very troubling. I find this very strange, and for the fact that its only Malaysia too.

[Anacybele]

Technically the assassination is what ended the climb. The leadup to war had been going on long before longer than the assassination; it was just a convenient spark.

It's also a lot more explosive than anything that !!obama and the other world leaders!! would consider doing.

You don't need to assassinate Vladimir Putin to be "involved" in Ukraine.

Oh. I guess it's been too long since I took world history back in high school. xP

[euklyd]

I feel like it's probably the rebels (or Russia I guess) that shot the plane down, simply because the Ukraine government forces have no reason to be shooting down planes.
At least I ASSUME that the rebels do not actually have jets running around.

I thought this was about the first one, I didn't realize there was a second one. Holy shit, that's very troubling. I find this very strange, and for the fact that its only Malaysia too.

I'm more than certain that this is Malaysia's bad luck.
Alternatively, it's the Integrilluminati out to get them, but that's at least 30% less likely.

[Naughx]

I thought this was about the first one, I didn't realize there was a second one. Holy shit, that's very troubling. I find this very strange, and for the fact that its only Malaysia too.

The first one vanished in the ocean (MH370), this one (MH17) was shot down in Eastern Ukraine.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Naughx

[Anacybele]

Just because the plane when down IN the Ukraine doesn't mean the Ukrainians are behind it. Those planes that crashed in the US back on 9/11 were brought down by Asian terrorists, not Americans. Terrorists are probably behind these Malaysian plane incidents too.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Anacybele

[Samias]

I feel like it's probably the rebels (or Russia I guess) that shot the plane down, simply because the Ukraine government forces have no reason to be shooting down planes.

At least I ASSUME that the rebels do not actually have jets running around.

US Intelligence believes that surface-to-air missiles were fired at the plane. They have heat signatures and radar data. The plane was most likely not taken down by fighter jets.

While the US does not want to conclusively say who is behind the attacks, there is a large amount of circumstantial evidence put forth by the Ukrainian government that points towards the pro-Russian rebels being behind the attack.

1. There were two deleted tweets from the pro-Russian rebel leadership. One showed them in possession of a surface-to-air missile system capable of bringing down a plane at the altitude and speed that the Malaysian plane was at. The other was bragging about taking down a Ukrainian supply plane... at the same time that it was known at the Malaysian plane was downed. There was no evidence of any Ukrainian aircraft taken down at that time period either.

2. The Ukrainian government has a wiretapped telephone conversation, presumably between the rebels and agents in Russia. If it's the people Ukraine claims, then this is damning evidence against the rebels and by extension, Russia. It is clear from the call that a civilian plane was not intended to be targeted, aka this is NOT a terrorist attack. However, it clearly admits fault behind the attack.

There is no certainty to who attacked the plane unless it is concluded the Ukrainian government's intelligence is legitimate (the US will not commit yet, for obvious reasons. It's too soon), but it was a tragic mistake, and the attack on a civilian craft was not the intention of either side of this conflict.

Here's a link to the actual story via Reuters.

Edit: Changed some wording to be as objectively truthful as I can be.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Samias

[Original Alear]

As far as fears of WWIII, I would like to think (well, what I mean is that I do think) that MAD will prevent a confrontation between world powers like the US and Russia. Also, thank you for your post Samias, as I hadn't seen that information.

[euklyd]

Just because the plane when down IN the Ukraine doesn't mean the Ukrainians are behind it. Those planes that crashed in the US back on 9/11 were brought down by Asian terrorists, not Americans. Terrorists are probably behind these Malaysian plane incidents too.

Did anyone imply that the Ukrainian gov't was behind it?

US Intelligence believes that surface-to-air missiles were fired at the plane. They have heat signatures and radar data. The plane was most likely not taken down by fighter jets.

I'm aware.

What I was saying was that the Ukraine gov't has no reason to shoot down any planes.

The rebels don't have them, and shooting down Russia's planes would be suicidal.

So the Ukraine gov't wouldn't even try to shoot down any planes at all, and so wouldn't even be in the position of making such a mistake (unless they were trying to frame someone).

I saw mention of the *actual* evidence after I made that...speculation.

Although I hadn't seen much about the tweet.

It's very compelling, if it's accurate.

no bias, ofc

Edited July 18, 2014 by Euklyd

[Samias]

Did anyone imply that the Ukrainian gov't was behind it?

I'm aware.

What I was saying was that the Ukraine gov't has no reason to shoot down any planes.

The rebels don't have them, and shooting down Russia's planes would be suicidal.

So the Ukraine gov't wouldn't even try to shoot down any planes at all, and so wouldn't even be in the position of making such a mistake (unless they were trying to frame someone).

Well, the Russians want to imply that the Ukrainians are responsible and have suggested they were trying to target Putin's plane. However, they have even less evidence than the Ukrainian gov't does. And I didn't meant to imply your opinion is wrong, I just wanted to add in information that actually supports that it was VERY unlikely the work of fighter jets.

My personal opinion is that the rebels are likely responsible. Just knowing that the plane was in rebel territory and heading away from the Ukraine gives the Ukrainian gov't little reason to shoot at any planes, let alone one at such a high altitude. However, the means of acquisition of the weapon is up in the air. It could have been captured from the Ukrainian military, but it could have also come from Russia. There is nothing absolutely conclusive to say that Russia is directly involved, and of course Russia does not want to be responsible for the actions of the rebels in this case, but I would be lying if I didn't say I was suspicious.

[euklyd]

Well, the Russians want to imply that the Ukrainians are responsible and have suggested they were trying to target Putin's plane. However, they have even less evidence than the Ukrainian gov't does. And I didn't meant to imply your opinion is wrong, I just wanted to add in information that actually supports that it was VERY unlikely the work of fighter jets.

Ah, okay. Sorry I assumed.

My personal opinion is that the rebels are likely responsible. Just knowing that the plane was in rebel territory and heading away from the Ukraine gives the Ukrainian gov't little reason to shoot at any planes, let alone one at such a high altitude. However, the means of acquisition of the weapon is up in the air. It could have been captured from the Ukrainian military, but it could have also come from Russia. There is nothing absolutely conclusive to say that Russia is directly involved, and of course Russia does not want to be responsible for the actions of the rebels in this case, but I would be lying if I didn't say I was suspicious.

I was under the impression that there was already evidence that Russia was supplying the rebels with things like, say, unmarked tanks.

I agree that the rebels are probably the ones directly responsible, though.

[Samias]

Russia has definitely been supplying weapons to the rebels in a general capacity. There is no arguing Russia has an agenda to take Ukraine back into the bloc and is using the rebels to push said agenda. However, the Buk surface-to-air missile that is presumed as the weapon used on the plane may have been captured and not given by the Russian forces. That will likely be how Russia argues against their direct involvement if the evidence confirms the rebels brought down the plane.

[Chiki]

I saw some of the uncensored videos of the corpses. Organs splayed out and everything.. it's the most horrific thing I've ever seen.

[jiodi]

I saw some of the uncensored videos of the corpses. Organs splayed out and everything.. it's the most horrific thing I've ever seen.

Yeah I'm glad I was warned before I started digging around for news. Do not need exposure to that :/