When do the Lords suck?

[Shadow Mir]

I have to agree with Irysa that Roy's Rapier is better though. But Roy himself and Eliwood are pretty bad. I guess Sword of Seals does make Roy's lategame pretty good. Eliwood can carry Hector promoted which is useful in drafts but he's mediocre through and through even with his horse. In EHM, he can have a nice C24 to Endgame though.

I beg to differ that Roy's rapier is better, considering Eli can hit nomads for effective damage..

[Irysa]

*headdesk*

Okay you got me on the Mt thing, I completely forgot about that, sorry. But since when were FE6 Cavs and Armors "kings of evasion"? I guess I'll concede that HHM cavs in 14 vs FE6 HM ch 4 (same map heh) have about a 5 point avo difference though, so it's effectively nulled. Roy pulls more weight on that map compared to Eliwood though really since the map is overall harder since Marcus is so much weaker.

Also, Eliwood has like a whopping 6 nomads he can hit with his rapier so that's really not much of a help in the long run (half of them only appear in Hector mode). They're a very uncommon enemy type in FE7.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Irysa

[Shadow Mir]

*headdesk*

Okay you got me on the Mt thing, but since when were FE6 Cavs and Armors "kings of evasion"?

Also, Eliwood has like a whopping 6 nomads he can hit with his rapier so that's really not much of a help in the long run (half of them only appear in Hector mode). They're a very uncommon enemy type in FE7.

They aren't, but FE7 enemies aren't exactly imposing statistically, which means that Eli isn't really hampered as much by WTD as you think he is (hence my comment about hitrates mostly evening out).

Maybe not, but it's still something, given that they're kinda fast, and Hector might run into hit issues early on.

[Refa]

The fact that FE7 enemies aren't very imposing is a point against Eliwood, not for him lol (since chances are there are better units to pick up the pace for him). Also there's also the issue of Hector being able to whatever Eliwood can do better than him, not to mention Lyn if you did Lyn Mode...

[Titamon]

I would definately say that Eliwood is at his worst during the beginning of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

The fact that FE7 enemies aren't very imposing is a point against Eliwood, not for him lol (since chances are there are better units to pick up the pace for him). Also there's also the issue of Hector being able to whatever Eliwood can do better than him, not to mention Lyn if you did Lyn Mode...

Point taken. That being said, outside of earlygame, I'd be hard-pressed to find a situation where I'm thinking "Hey, maybe having Roy face off against this cav might actually be a good idea", given that I'd likely have options that'd outdo him even with the rapier factored in.

[Icon of Sin]

A minor tidbit worth noting is that FE6 Rapier only has 25 uses vs. FE7's 40. Sure, you get a second one much earlier but Roy's second wind in the Isles doesn't really take the Rapier much into account since he faces mostly Fighters and Pirates rather than Cavaliers and Knights. By the time those become common again in chapters 13 and 15, Roy may be close to level 20, you'll have a few more promoted units to help you out such as Klein and Echidna on top of Miredy being available at that time.

Anyway I'd argue FE3 Marth doesn't suck at all either considering Orb fragments and how good stat boosters are. He might as well get the Boots too but that's a bit of a contest between him and Feena. Then the Life Orb on top of his high movement makes him more or less invincible and if you don't desire training some late joining unit like Astria, you could just give him the Star Orb and the Miracle for a 40ish might juggernaut that doesn't break his weapon.

Leaf may not see much combat by midgame but he's a prime candidate to hold the King Sword thanks to his numerous supports, which makes him a superb, yet subtle team player with his leadership stars. By the time he promotes, scrolls shouldn't be in such a huge demand either and he could get a lot of uses out of some of them. He also makes great ballistae and long range spell bait thanks to a lack of fatigue, doubly so if he has the Charge skill.

It's been a long while since I played FE8 but I don't remember Ephraim being any sort of terrible, other than Father and Son having a lot of status staves but that's not really his problem.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Woodshooter

[Irysa]

The second rapier is overall pretty pointless yeah. Roy probably barely breaks his rapier even in casual runs by c9.

Point taken. That being said, outside of earlygame, I'd be hard-pressed to find a situation where I'm thinking "Hey, maybe having Roy face off against this cav might actually be a good idea", given that I'd likely have options that'd outdo him even with the rapier factored in.

I don't think I'd argue against Roy being pretty worthless in most of the midgame though. The point was more that Roy's Rapier utility is far more helpful early on than Eliwood's is, then they both kind of just suck in the midgame then Roy gets a better lategame since he can actually do a lot of damage whilst being safe at 2 range, even if he went completely untrained (for christs sake, he hits the final boss for 31 damage in 0% growths and can't be hit back, that's practically as good as a str capped pally or hero using durandal and doubling lol). Plus you can buy more boots for Roy heh.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Irysa

[Xator Nova]

There's no point where Seliph sucks, but I'd still agree with you that Chapter 6 is his worst moment due to being the part he's the most resource-dependent.

[Shadow Mir]

The second rapier is overall pretty pointless yeah. Roy probably barely breaks his rapier even in casual runs by c9.

I don't think I'd argue against Roy being pretty worthless in most of the midgame though. The point was more that Roy's Rapier utility is far more helpful early on than Eliwood's is, then they both kind of just suck in the midgame then Roy gets a better lategame since he can actually do a lot of damage whilst being safe at 2 range, even if he went completely untrained (for christs sake, he hits the final boss for 31 damage in 0% growths and can't be hit back, that's practically as good as a str capped pally or hero using durandal and doubling lol). Plus you can buy more boots for Roy heh.

Agreed - by the time the rapier's relevant again, he's getting outclassed at fighting the enemies that it'd be good against.

I guess you have a point, but the Sword of Seals has only 20 uses, thus it isn't something that you can just get out there and spam willy-nilly.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[General Horace]

Just gonna post my thoughts on The lords similar to the OP that I'm familiar with. Not gonna comment on fe1 Marth because I know he's good, but I've only played FE1 once, and he was screwed beyond belief.

Alm - his only weakness is movement really. He gets the overpowered bow when he's about to fall off a bit and that ruins the rest of the game.

Marth FE3 - he's pretty average. Not fantastic, but pretty solid.

Sigurd - obviously broken

Celice - broken if given the proper inheritance.

Leaf - he's kinda like FE3 Marth. He's pretty weak in the first few chapters, then you lose all your good units and he's the star

Roy - Awful but really good for 25 attacks.

Eliwood - Bad on his own mode, Pretty ok on Hector's if he gets the first Heaven Seal. His stats are pretty similar to Kent's except he can rescue Hector!

Hector - Really good in the first 10 chapters or so, then his lack of move hurts. Never really a liability until he ironically promotes and has huge con, making him harder to move around.

Lyn - She's actually really good in her own mode, but her beyond useless durability coupled with swords and mediocre strength make her pretty weak in Hector mode when not using the Mani Katti.

Eirika - 3x effective might makes her Rapier OP, and she's pretty good in her own right until chapter 10 or so. She can still smack things hard with Sieglinde lategame at least.

Ephraim - Fantastic on his own route, and his stats are so good that he's almost like FE8's Gotoh in a way lategame on Eirika route. He's pretty much a failsafe to beat the final boss if you somehow broke all the holy weapons and Eirika gets oneshotted. On his own route he's fantastic since even his bases are some of the best in the series for a level 4 unit. 11 speed on a lance user? The fuck IS? Reginleif is definately the best PRF in a game i've played because Wolf Beil only has 2x effective MT.

FE9 Ike - Pretty similar to FE3 Marth with a worse start and a better finish. If he got Axes in FE9 he'd be fantastic.

FE11 Marth - dear god i honestly think he's worse than Roy on H5

on easier modes he's pretty good though.

FE12 Marth - Pretty solid throughout, never great, never awful.

Chrom - I actually think he's pretty awesome if he gets a cavalier reclass early. I've never really had him fall off like other people say he does before, although I think a large reason why is I don't really use Lucina a whole lot, or many of the kids in general because effort

Edited August 2, 2014 by General Horace

[intergalacticoh]

I generally agree except:

Eliwood sux hard early and midgame, and only really catches up lategame when his growths finally kick in, where he's actually a pretty good unit.

Roy realllllllly falls hard even during the Western Isles. His bases are just not enough for his growths to give him anything resembling decent stats.

Hector, Ephraim and both versions of Ike are pretty consistent; they all stay strong throughout their respective games.

[Just call me AL]

I wonder if it's worth pointing out that FE12 Marth is pretty much your best bet against Medeus on Lunatic mode. I know he's solid throughout, but I'm just wondering how much water that would hold.

[Psych]

I wonder if it's worth pointing out that FE12 Marth is pretty much your best bet against Medeus on Lunatic mode. I know he's solid throughout, but I'm just wondering how much water that would hold.

This wasn't really supposed to be a tier list or which lord is the worst (even though that's fun talking about and gives a new twist on a tier list I like)

It's supposed to be "when is the weakest point in this lord's career.

[BBM]

Eliwood is IMO way better than Roy on Hector's mode- people keep hyping SoS and forget it has like 25 uses? If Eliwood gets the first Seal, he promotes less than 2/3rds of the way through HHM to what is basically a Paladin with 1 less move and no axes, which isn't a huge deal because he still gets lances for 1-2 range. Roy promotes with like 4 maps left in the game and has 25 attacks of being good in a game where everything has tons of HP, meaning he needs two hits to kill pretty much everything, IE the SoS is hanging around for like 15 enemies max unless he's just chipping at stuff, which Eliwood can do too, at better move (unless you stuff Roy with Boots I guess). Sure Eliwood's chips don't hit as hard but being in an easier game he's chipping less and killing more. And that's not counting the fact that Roy just blows from like C12 to C22 even at level 20. Roy's early game is a little bit better than Eliwood's, but Roy steadily gets worse every chapter until he promotes, whereas Eliwood is steadily getting better.

[dondon151]

if we're concerned about eliwood vs. roy, roy has more points in the game where using him has greater payoff.

plus you have to use him a lot if you want to do risky LTCs.

[Just call me AL]

This wasn't really supposed to be a tier list or which lord is the worst (even though that's fun talking about and gives a new twist on a tier list I like)

It's supposed to be "when is the weakest point in this lord's career.

And my post wasn't supposed to be interpreted as a tier list post either. Your first post seems to indicate that FE12 Marth (and FE3 Marth to a similar extent) seems to be at his worst in mid-to-late game. I just felt like pointing out something that might seem to suggest otherwise.