Why are green units so useless?

[Loki Laufeyson]

I have the fondest memory of my first fe7 playthrough where one of raths cavaliers held his own against eubans, and would have kiled him, but i wanted the spear.

One of Rath's Unit is actually kinda bamf. The only thing is keeping him healed. (Cuz ballista likes to chew on that guy's dome) At least one of those guys lives in my runs.

[General Horace]

Areone and his crew are pretty good too, even if they generally show up too late to do much. Pent and Hawkeye are definately the best green units though. Oh and Duessel. PROTECT THIS GUY THAT CAN'T EVEN PHYSICALLY DIE AS A GREEN UNIT GUYS

[CT075]

alvis is hilarious

i wish i'd gotten a video but i managed to lure him over to the boss and get him nuked for me

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

TBH I never found 3-13 Archer to be helpful. If everyone else and I are thinking of the same archer, he died as soon as the Laguz reinforcements arrived and never did anything to help.

and yes green units are bad. ESPECIALLY in RD, Fiona's team in chapter 1-6 are ESPECIALLY bad, with all of the heavy items that are heavier than their strength, and dying in 1 hit... god they're terrible. If the speed negated from the heavy items wasn't bad enough, they also lost speed AND skill from rescuing the even WEAKER green units.

Actually the 3-13 archer (sniper) is pretty useful, because one ballista shot is an instant kill for a hawk. They're the biggest danger in this chapter, because they can fly behind your defend line.

And how can he die? He's on the second highest top. If you block all the gasps, the Laguz can't reach him.

However Fiona is a good example. In my current run she died two times in a row by a critical hit by the myrmidon

=> Game Over.

It's almost impossible to save all people in 3-6-2, even if you try to rush with Volug and Jill.

Imo partner units in most chapters of FE10 are pretty damn useful:

In 3-6 you can use them as wall. On hard mode a very good strategy. And the bishop with physic can heal you.

In 3-9 the paladins save the houses and the physic bishop heals you, so you can concentrate to kill all the enemies.

In 3-12 the partner units do an excellent job. The snipers can one shot the falcon knights and the rocks hurt some enemies.

In 3-13 they're GOD! Like I said the ballistas are an instant kill for the hawks and there are plenty of great partner units. Fire sages, axe generals, hellebardiers. If I play on hard mode, they're indispensable!

In general the bishops help you a lot by healing you.

[Ein]

I'm sure Pent can explain why green units suck so much

He steals my experience to maybe not get the side chpter and forces me to have Florina rescue his sorry butt.

Green Pent sucks.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually the 3-13 archer (sniper) is pretty useful, because one ballista shot is an instant kill for a hawk. They're the biggest danger in this chapter, because they can fly behind your defend line.

And how can he die? He's on the second highest top. If you block all the gasps, the Laguz can't reach him.

However Fiona is a good example. In my current run she died two times in a row by a critical hit by the myrmidon

=> Game Over.

It's almost impossible to save all people in 3-6-2, even if you try to rush with Volug and Jill.

Imo partner units in most chapters of FE10 are pretty damn useful:

In 3-6 you can use them as wall. On hard mode a very good strategy. And the bishop with physic can heal you.

In 3-9 the paladins save the houses and the physic bishop heals you, so you can concentrate to kill all the enemies.

In 3-12 the partner units do an excellent job. The snipers can one shot the falcon knights and the rocks hurt some enemies.

In 3-13 they're GOD! Like I said the ballistas are an instant kill for the hawks and there are plenty of great partner units. Fire sages, axe generals, hellebardiers. If I play on hard mode, they're indispensable!

In general the bishops help you a lot by healing you.

The laguz units that come in from the side on turn 8 have a chance to kill him (and, being an AI unit, he'll go and meet them down there, natch. Especially if the ballista he uses is out of ammo, which is likely to be the case).

TBH, I think RD's partner units are as bad, if not worse than greens. The fact you actually have control over then does NOT make up for this. In general, I either see those who waste vulneraries (because using a vulnerary when you have lost only 8 HP is just plain wasteful in a game where they heal 20 HP), or those who go and recklessly charge in and get killed, which is like 99.9% of the rest. Ugh. Oh, and they make no effort to keep their healers safe, which is fucking inexcusable when they have Physic staves. Good grief!

Also, the snipers in 3-12 don't actually do a thing against the Falcoknights, given they don't move from their positions. In 3-13, most of the NPCs that aren't near the position that you must defend (Read: on the upper level of the fortress) are tier 1 units that the apostle's army won't have any issue disposing of.

He steals my experience to maybe not get the side chpter and forces me to have Florina rescue his sorry butt.

Green Pent sucks.

Honestly, I would actually be happy NOT to get the side chapter in HHM.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Of course the A.I. of the partner units is lacking, but they're not too bad either.

At least in 3-12 and 3-13 on HM there's absolute no reason not to use them, because your group is fragile and you fight really some tough enemies. They can kill stuff and save your ass by healing. So you can forgive them, if someone is so stupid to kill hisself.

NPCs are much dumber. For example everytime in 3-4 a tiger blocks a spot you can attack the elthudersagefrom below. So I always have to use Haar to kill him and bring my units to the next higher platform.

Yeah, in 3-12 the snipers on the gap don't move, but if the falcon knights are in their range (which almost happpens, because of run out of movement), they'll attack them. There also is an archer, who moves and can kill a falcon knight instantly.

On EM/NM you can the save "3-13 archer", because he would surive all the attacks of the tiger and the two cats. Either kill all the Laguz or advice your partner units to hold their position till the three Laguz on the left side are dead.

Edited August 9, 2014 by TalesOf Hysteria

[PuffPuff]

Um...Amalda is an NPC and she can hold her own quite well and cannot die in Ch15 due to plot reasons. Not all of them are useless. FE10 Physic NPCS are quite useful sometimes...too. As they can heal your units without costing your own staff uses.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Bimbo

[Shadow Mir]

Of course the A.I. of the partner units is lacking, but they're not too bad either.

At least in 3-12 and 3-13 on HM there's absolute no reason not to use them, because your group is fragile and you fight really some tough enemies. They can kill stuff and save your ass by healing. So you can forgive them, if someone is so stupid to kill hisself.

NPCs are much dumber. For example everytime in 3-4 a tiger blocks a spot you can attack the elthudersages from below. So I always have to use Haar to kill him and bring my units to the next higher.

Yeah, in 3-12 the snipers on the gap don't move, but if the falcon kinghts are in their range (which almost happpens, because of run out of movement), they'll attack them. There also is an archer, who moves and can kill a falcon knight instantly.

On EM/NM you can the save "3-13 archer", because he would surive all the attacks of the tiger and the two cats. Either kill all the Laguz or advice your partner units to hold their position till the three Laguz on the left side are dead.

It ain't so forgivable if the unit that died was a healer when I only have NPC healers to work with (See: 3-9).

Bold: Really now? I think they're both on the same level.

Second paragraph: You mean the archer that usually gets to do little more than push a rock down before a Falcoknight puts him down (because last I checked, a bow weakness doesn't mean jack if you outrange and kill the bowman)? Incidentally, I don't see it happening that often where a falcoknight stops near a sniper and gets shot down.

Third paragraph: I take a third option: Block the laguz from getting up and not care what happens to him.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Of course the A.I. of the partner units is lacking, but they're not too bad either.

At least in 3-12 and 3-13 on HM there's absolute no reason not to use them, because your group is fragile and you fight really some tough enemies. They can kill stuff and save your ass by healing. So you can forgive them, if someone is so stupid to kill hisself.

NPCs are much dumber. For example everytime in 3-4 a tiger blocks a spot you can attack the elthudersages from below. So I always have to use Haar to kill him and bring my units to the next higher.

Huh... why is this part bold? It wasn't my intention to mark it bold and it isn't even displayed bold on my Ipod.

Yeah, there are two elthundersages on the same level. I refer to the elthundersage on the left side. In turn 3 I want to kill the left one with a sniper, because there's no way for my units except for Haar to reach the other one. The tiger blocks the attacking spot of the left sage and so Haar has to kill the left one. It makes the situation needlessly complicated.

"Second paragraph: You mean the archer that usually gets to do little more than push a rock down before a Falcoknight puts him down (because last I checked, a bow weakness doesn't mean jack if you outrange and kill the bowman)? Incidentally, I don't see it happening that often where a falcoknight stops near a sniper and gets shot down."

The two falcon knights, who appear as reinforcements in turn 3 or 4 from the left always try to attack the bishop (if he's still alive), a soldier or one of the snipers. The partner units block the direct way neatly, so the falcos have to fly a long way around of them. It costs a lot of movement so their turn always ends in the range of the snipers.

Third paragraph: I take a third option: Block the laguz from getting up and not care what happens to him.

Good point and true, but there's also a fourth option: Try to kill Ike.

Edited August 9, 2014 by TalesOf Hysteria

[Shadow Mir]

Huh... why is this part bold? It wasn't my intention to mark it bold and it isn't even displayed bold on my Ipod.

Yeah, there are two elthundersages on the same level. I refer to the elthundersage on the left side. In turn 3 I want to kill the left one with a sniper, because there's no way for my units except for Haar to reach the other one. The tiger blocks the attacking spot of the left sage and so Haar has to kill the left one. It makes the situation needlessly complicated.

I bolded it because I had some blatant issues with it, like the part where I'd generally refrain from attacking an enemy who has the high ground from below (though I didn't mention that).

The two falcon knights, who appear as reinforcements in turn 3 or 4 from the left always try to attack the bishop (if he's still alive), a soldier or one of the snipers. The partner units block the direct way neatly, so the falcos have to fly a long way around of them. It costs a lot of movement so their turn always ends in the range of the snipers.

I don't remember that happening nearly as often as you claim, though.

Good point and true, but there's also a fourth option: Try to kill Ike.

Which is incredibly risky, and IMO, not worth it when all but two or your units attack defense.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I bolded it because I had some blatant issues with it, like the part where I'd generally refrain from attacking an enemy who has the high ground from below (though I didn't mention that).

Rolf or Shinon with silencer, a support in accuracy and a decent biorhythm work. It's even possible to get 100% hitrate from BELOW! The only worry is the critrate of elthunder. Though I think Shinon could even survive a critical hit.

Which is incredibly risky, and IMO, not worth it when all but two or your units attack defense.

It's manageable with 3rd tier units (=> mastery skill) or Laura uses sleep staff against Ike. And in general I would wait till turn 12 to get much experience as possible.

[MeteoSage]

It doesn't help that green units are also unequipped citizen type units that don't know to run away from danger. On the other hand, they're often too good in PoR and RD, stealing exp. and killing Oliver and taking away Nosferatu from me in PoR

Merchant Anna in FE13 on skirmishes is usually very capable of handling her own for a few hits, except of course when you need her to survive like the Five Anna Firefight.

[TheMoniker]

I'm speaking for the GBA games here, but generally the green units are bad because they're in a bad situation. In the FE8 duessel chapter, the cavaliers can hold their own but they have WTD. The merc attacks the guy at the front, the only one with a sword, and the pirates hit the guys on the sides, the ones with lances. At least they hold position and can run to use vulneraries. In the rausten level, the knights are outleved and weak. In the FE7 caelin level, the soldiers have 0s/1s for most of their stats(seriously...). Another thing is that they have bad AI. The greenies are more than willing to sacrifice all chance at survival for even a tiny chance of taking out 1 enemy, rather than doing their best to push the blue army to victory. Sometimes, though, they can be helpful. For instance, in the FE7 fortress level, 2 of the green knights distracted heath while I brought his recruiter over.

[Shadow Mir]

I bolded it because I had some blatant issues with it, like the part where I'd generally refrain from attacking an enemy who has the high ground from below (though I didn't mention that).

Rolf or Shinon with silencer, a support in accuracy and a decent biorhythm work. It's even possible to get 100% hitrate from BELOW! The only worry is the critrate of elthunder. Though I think Shinon could even survive a critical hit.

Which is incredibly risky, and IMO, not worth it when all but two or your units attack defense.

It's manageable with 3rd tier units (=> mastery skill) or Laura uses sleep staff against Ike. And in general I would wait till turn 12 to get much experience as possible.

I'd say something about the fact that your replies are inside the quote box (again), but whatever.

First statement: So I'm supposed to spend 8 grand on a Silencer, support someone who has an accuracy boosting affinity, AND be at good biorhythm?? That's incredibly restrictive. No thank you.

Second statement: Just how likely is the average player to have a third tier unit by then???

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'd say something about the fact that your replies are inside the quote box (again), but whatever.

First statement: So I'm supposed to spend 8 grand on a Silencer, support someone who has an accuracy boosting affinity, AND be at good biorhythm?? That's incredibly restrictive. No thank you.

Nobody forces to play this way.

I do it, because it's just my style of play. I tend to play offensively and it works in this situation. I try to use all the possibilities to kill an enemy.

The silencer is a great weapon: 50 attacks, 16 might and 100% accuracy. It's absolute NO misinvestment.

BTW you get a blue gem in the infoconversation at base and a white gem from the previous chapter by one of the senators (in total 15000). So you have enough money to buy it.

Second statement: Just how likely is the average player to have a third tier unit by then???

Paragon and/or mastercrown. On EM/NM it's not hard to get a third tier unit.

[Shadow Mir]

Nobody forces to play this way.

I do it, because it's just my style of play. I tend to play offensively and it works in this situation. I try to use all the possibilities to kill an enemy.

The silencer is a great weapon: 50 attacks, 16 might and 100% accuracy. It's absolute NO misinvestment.

BTW you get a blue gem in the infoconversation at base and a white gem from the previous chapter by one of the senators (in total 15000). So you have enough money to buy it.

Paragon and/or mastercrown. On EM/NM it's not hard to get a third tier unit.

I'm not going to dispute the fact that Silencer is a great weapon. But it's still not something I'd buy, lest I wind up letting it sit in the convoy, wasting the 8000 gold I bought it for in the first place. Also, I'm not exactly much of an offensive player; my playstyle is one that adapts to the situation, though in general, it's defensive. Even if I was, though, I'd hesitate to consider attacking an enemy on high ground anywhere near a good idea if the enemy could counter.

Both of those are favoritism. And how likely is the average player to favor a certain Daein unit such that they manage to get to third tier in part 3?? Also, as to using masteries against him, most masteries have a skill/2 activation rate.. I shouldn't have to smack you upside the head with a sign that says "that ain't reliable", and that's before potential biorhythm effects.

[Loki Laufeyson]

And how can he die? He's on the second highest top. If you block all the gasps, the Laguz can't reach him.

If there isnt anyone up there, 3-13 Archer, in a bout of heroism no doubt, will go down there and try to kill those guys if his ballista is exhausted.

Both of those are favoritism.

Not really. Anything is really doable without sinking too many resources in in Easy/Normal mode.

And how likely is the average player to favor a certain Daein unit such that they manage to get to third tier in part 3??

Easy Mode. It isnt at all difficult to get someone like Nolan, Jill, Edward, or Zihark to third tier in part 3. One of those guys, if used, will probably reach third tier by 3-12. Paragon is floating around the DB team so why not make use of it? Its not babying or favoritism to slap Paragon on Jill and watch her power level in 3-6, brah.

[Shadow Mir]

Not really. Anything is really doable without sinking too many resources in in Easy/Normal mode.

Easy Mode. It isnt at all difficult to get someone like Nolan, Jill, Edward, or Zihark to third tier in part 3. One of those guys, if used, will probably reach third tier by 3-12. Paragon is floating around the DB team so why not make use of it? Its not babying or favoritism to slap Paragon on Jill and watch her power level in 3-6, brah.

Well, I'll grant you Easy mode, but yeah...

Don't get me wrong, I would use Paragon, but even then it'd take blatant favoritism for someone to leapfrog all the way from 20/2 (example; generally, whoever I'm planning on using on part 3 would be in second tier or at least very close to second tier by the time part 1's over) to promotion before 3-13 when you have all of two chapters of playtime before said chapter.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

On easy mode you get about 2x more battle experience than on normal mode. If an unit has paragon, you get almost a full level for each Laguz kill. So killing about 25 Laguz would be enough for a classchange.

[Shadow Mir]

On easy mode you get about 2x more battle experience than on normal mode. If an unit has paragon, you get almost a full level for each Laguz kill. So killing about 25 Laguz would be enough for a classchange.

Didn't I get through talking about that being blatant favoritism??? Anyways, easy mode's a joke, so I'm not giving it the time of day.

[Baldrick]

It's not really favouritism, it's getting the most out of Paragon. In HM, the deck is massively stacked against lower level units, so you'd probably only want to train one DB member for part 4.

In 3-6 you have to kill at least 46 enemies, so giving 25 to your Paragon user isn't unreasonable; there's no BEXP for turns, and that would still mean giving 20 kills to your other units. (Considering how much you freak out at NPCs using a Vulnerary you can't obtain or otherwise benefit from, I don't like to imagine what you'd say about giving 20 kills to units you're not using in the long term). Even in HM, the kill exp alone would push a 20/1 unit to around 20/14.76 (assuming the average laguz level is 15), so they'd likely reach tier 3 by the beginning of part 4. (You'd probably need to Crown them at around 20/17 if you wanted them T3 to fight Ike).

[Shadow Mir]

It's not really favouritism, it's getting the most out of Paragon. In HM, the deck is massively stacked against lower level units, so you'd probably only want to train one DB member for part 4.

In 3-6 you have to kill at least 46 enemies, so giving 25 to your Paragon user isn't unreasonable; there's no BEXP for turns, and that would still mean giving 20 kills to your other units. (Considering how much you freak out at NPCs using a Vulnerary you can't obtain or otherwise benefit from, I don't like to imagine what you'd say about giving 20 kills to units you're not using in the long term). Even in HM, the kill exp alone would push a 20/1 unit to around 20/14.76 (assuming the average laguz level is 15), so they'd likely reach tier 3 by the beginning of part 4. (You'd probably need to Crown them at around 20/17 if you wanted them T3 to fight Ike).

Personally, I'd say 25 kills to one unit is unreasonably lofty...What's more, I'm assuming that we aren't assuming all of these kills are transformed laguz (though that was never specified; I'm bringing this up because transformed kills are worth more exp than untransformed kills). Also, given the nature of this game, I don't really have a problem with giving kills to characters I'm not using over the long term; after all, while I'm inclined to favor those who are going to endgame, I still need to use whatever I got to get through the rest of the game, and thus I need to make sure that the others are good enough to contribute.

[The Geek]

Was just playing the Chapter inside of Castle Caelyn in FE7, where you get Raven and Lucius. I was taking down the Fighter that had the Hammer and was all set to kill him when one of those damned green Soldiers comes in, kills the guy, and deprives me of a perfectly good Hammer.

[Shadow Mir]

Was just playing the Chapter inside of Castle Caelyn in FE7, where you get Raven and Lucius. I was taking down the Fighter that had the Hammer and was all set to kill him when one of those damned green Soldiers comes in, kills the guy, and deprives me of a perfectly good Hammer.

That reminds me of another reason I'm not fond of NPCs - their tendency to attack and potentially kill an enemy that has a drop item or a stealable. That being said, I don't think you're missing out on much there without the hammer.