Scottish Independence Referendum

[Mikethfc]

If Scotland has a way of self-sustaining after becoming independent, then I'd say it's worth it just to never have anything to do with the Conservatives again.

The only real problem is that Scotland also houses many Labour MPs. If Scotland leaves, the Tories will have power in England, Wales and N.Ireland indefinitely. Fanfuckingtastic.

Which is why I'm really hoping for a no.

Also I don't see why people would assume that the E.U. would support Scotland anymore than they did Ireland, and look where that got them.

But if they do vote yes, they'll no longer be able to charge the English and Welsh for university fees, in the same way they can't charge the rest of the E.U. for them now, I think (not certain on this)

[Tryhard]

I've had enough of conservatism myself. When I say "we", I like to say I'm thinking of "we" as a nation. When it comes to politics, generally "we" are more left-wing in Scotland. We still have a lot of differences, and people like Irysa think it would be better for everyone if we stayed in the UK. Indeed, it isn't any more than a neat little parcel way of saying that I think it is simply benefiting my nation, which I view as more important in this case. Does that make me a nationalist?

About the whole EU problem, Scotland would need to re-apply, but there's been talking up from both sides on what the most likely is.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/289096-scotlands-european-union-membership-not-in-doubt-claims-esrc/

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/326730/ec-vice-president-contradicts-snp-claims-in-independent-scotlands-european-membership/

https://fullfact.org/scotland/scotlands_likely_route_eu_member-34629

But even with this it's looking more and more likely that the UK may be leaving the EU as well with or without Scotland (there are already numerous conflicts about the UK not being able to remain in the EU in 2017), and if Scotland leave that may become a bigger possibility all on its own...

On tuition fees, this was an interesting read:

https://archive.today/JP3UK

Could someone link to something that provides evidence that the English and Welsh pay for Scottish tuition fees? It's not that I wouldn't believe it, I'm just curious.

oil etc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26326117

Edited August 27, 2014 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

English and Welsh taxpayer money is part of the grand pot that goes towards the funding that the Scottish Government gets, which it uses to subsidise things like University Fees and the stupid Bedroom Tax shit they brought in down south.

Frankly, the fuss this referendum has kicked up has alerted English to how much better off we are up here, they all want us to suffer together. I'd say "vote labour instead if hating scotland" but fuck labour, they're just as bad. People voted lib dem last election because we thought they could do something better, but they turned out to be rubbish too. Westminister is such a goddamn failure right now, but Holyrod's governance has been total garbage for years as well. I'll admit the SNP have actually done a decent job lately, but I don't trust them to manage a whole country independantly at all.

Like, with so much cynicism for Politicians it's a bloody wonder I can be bothered to go vote anyway, since as far as I see it, things can only continue to be rubbish no matter what. In that sense, I can only blindly cling to that idealistic belief that things will go in the best possible direction for us all if we stay together, because if not then I have no belief in anything.

[Tryhard]

Yeah, even if I don't want conservatives, labour and lib dems are just as bad. That's why I want some chance of change, even if that is idealistic in its own way. That's politics for you, and generally why I haven't voted up to this point on anything. While I still think it's better than America's two-party system, it's still not in a good state.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Tryhard

[Wist]

Could someone link to something that provides evidence that the English and Welsh pay for Scottish tuition fees? It's not that I wouldn't believe it, I'm just curious.

http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/undergraduate/fees-finance/introduction

http://www.gla.ac.uk/scholarships/feestatus/

I know citing the tuition policies of two schools is poor proof, but I'm not sure where best to find up to date policy information.

Essentially anyone studying in the UK owes tuition. But if you're studying in Scotland and are a Scottish resident or non-UK European Union resident, the Scottish government typically pays in your stead (granted you fulfill a few other criteria, such as not already holding an equivalent degree). It's of course more complicated than this, but --

[Tryhard]

http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/undergraduate/fees-finance/introduction

http://www.gla.ac.uk/scholarships/feestatus/

I know citing the tuition policies of two schools is poor proof, but I'm not sure where best to find up to date policy information.

Essentially anyone studying in the UK owes tuition. But if you're studying in Scotland and are a Scottish resident or non-UK European Union resident, the Scottish government typically pays in your stead (granted you fulfill a few other criteria, such as not already holding an equivalent degree). It's of course more complicated than this, but --

Sorry, that wasn't what I was asking - unless I've missed something, because I do take advantage of the government paying my tuition fees already - I was more asking about some people have said that the English and Welsh taxpayers money goes towards Scottish people's university fees.

English and Welsh taxpayer money is part of the grand pot that goes towards the funding that the Scottish Government gets, which it uses to subsidise things like University Fees and the stupid Bedroom Tax shit they brought in down south.

This, or such.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Tryhard

[ClevelandSteve]

As an American, I think it's eerily hilarious that the UK has a northern part that leans more to the left (Scotland) and a southern part full of right wing nutjobs (England). I guess we Americans really do take after our parent nation more than we think.

As for the Scottish Independence Issue: we Americans nearly split apart 150 years ago. If that had happened, the Southern US would've maintained slavery for who knows how long. And, from the sound of it, if Scotland left the UK then the UKIP (which reminds me a lot of the our Republican Party, especially since Obama took office and they went completely batshit) would be poised to take power. A UKIP-run United Kingdom would be terrible for both the UK and for the world as a whole. At the same time, the Northern United States would be a lot better place today if we didn't have the south dragging us down and giving our country a bad name, so I can definitely see why Scotland might want to leave the UK.

[dondon151]

the right-wing in the UK is still much more left-leaning than the right-wing in the US (or even the left-wing, for that matter).

[Wist]

Sorry, that wasn't what I was asking - unless I've missed something, because I do take advantage of the government paying my tuition fees already - I was more asking about some people have said that the English and Welsh taxpayers money goes towards Scottish people's university fees.

This, or such.

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I have no idea how tax money is distributed with respect to Scottish university tuition -- I'm also curious if what you noted some others are claiming is true or not.

[Tryhard]

IT WAS ON THE FIRST PAGE SO IT STILL COUNTS

Referendum was/is today, just voted now, with a 'yes' vote as expected. Now come what may, for better or for worse.

I did hear that the gap between the two was narrowed down to 2% before the referendum in polls, so it could be interesting...

It's funny because my friend went and put his 'no' vote in, so we effectively cancelled each other out.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

Voted No, results are tricking in just now. Staying up all night for this.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Voted No, results are tricking in just now. Staying up all night for this.

You and everyone else. I dont live over there but i am on pins and needles over this. *gets popcorn*

I keep hearing rumors about No votes gaining the upper hand.

[Parrhesia]

Sounds like no's going to win.

[Rehab]

My dad gets The Economist, so most of my exposure has been to arguments against independence, which seemed to say that the evidence Scotland would be better off materially/economically independent are much more shaky than the arguments it wouldn't, and that even in the case it didn't go independent it's made enough noise that by this point there's no way Westminister could afford not to to give a little (or a lot) on governance issues.

I myself am mostly a blank slate regarding knowledge/opinions, ofc

[Loki Laufeyson]

Sounds like no's going to win.

And how. No leads by like 200,000 votes. Unless EVERYONE EVER IN GLASGOW damn hooligans votes Yes, its in the bag. Scotland stays put.

RIP.

[Irysa]

I was quietly confident in a No vote, but I'm delighted to see the silent majority has come through for Scotland AND the United Kingdom.

RULE, BRITANNIA!

fun fact, that song was written by a Scot

[Tryhard]

It ended up a majority by 55% for 'no' for anyone who doesn't know.

I didn't bother staying up. I needed my sleep.

I can't say that I'm not a little disappointed though. Will be especially so if Conservatives or UKIP get voted in or the UK leaves the EU anyway.

Time to be regarded as cowards for a while... I think I'll try and avoid patronising English politicians for now.

The way it was it was gonna be under half of the country disappointed from the outcome, anyway.

Though I do dislike how some are jumping to say the vote was rigged already. Guess they're devastated. They gotta just let it go.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tryhard

[Psych]

well then

[Aizenberg]

while you were all distracted by the Scottish vote, England has absorbed Wales

http://imgur.com/DpEe3UX

it made me chuckle

[Tryhard]

Well, at least there are positives to take for people like me.

• A huge turnout of 85% shows that people actually care - a new record for any election held in the UK since the introduction of universal suffrage in 1918. If nothing else you have to commend Salmond in being able to get people interested in voting.
• A 45-55% ratio means that we are very conflicted but it is pretty close - or at least compared to earlier polls. Once again, it's mostly neutral votes that are determining the victory.
• Supposedly British politicians are going to give more to/better treatment of Scotland. Apparently this occured four days ago, which may have convinced people. I don't think they will keep these promises, honestly. Ed Miliband has pretty much backpedalled immediately. And Cameron, if Salmond is telling the truth.
• I'm hoping that Scotland is taken more seriously when it comes to the political leanings - from what I read, a lot of other British people on websites talking about Scottish independence hoped for Scotland to leave themselves because they are politically left leaning and there is a lot of conservatives that just want rid of us. Unfortunately there isn't really a party that I would vote for.

If there was anything that should have been done, it should have been to definitely get trade agreements to make sure that they would keep afloat. There was talks of what might happen, but they were never conclusive. If there was a guarantee of trade with other countries, EU access, a definite answer to the currency used, I think far more neutrals would have been swayed. Indeed, the currency was the biggest reason why people voted no according to a poll. Perhaps this event will even jolt the rest of the UK into demanding change.

I am actually surprised that Edinburgh did mostly vote no, though.

[spoiler=supposed rigging]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZi6HqDwcQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg

It's really not conclusive at all, but I suppose I should post it. Conspiracy hats etc.

Honestly I can't see it as anything other than people clutching. And this is someone who shares the want for independence.

Apparently a police probe is happening, though.

Russia somehow got involved for some reason, too:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum

But yeah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFaAIylVHfI

Gotta laugh sometimes. It would have been interesting to see an independent Scotland, because as far as I know Scandinavian nations showed interest in welcoming them.

Edit: Looks like Salmond has stepped down, too.

As well as some conflicts: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx6syWICcAE-i1a.jpg

https://vine.co/v/OWFYdIxnEVz

There have been reports of nazi gestures, burning of flags and heckling. These people on each side are a disgrace.

There's gonna be riots in George Square (Glasgow), I can already tell.

Rangers fans voted no and Celtic fans voted yes for probably no reason then to try and piss off the other.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

Idk, I'm hearing a LOT of talk about Federal UK from politicians on the radio. I'm really hopeful that will come through, it's something we've needed for a very long time.

[Tryhard]

Idk, I'm hearing a LOT of talk about Federal UK from politicians on the radio. I'm really hopeful that will come through, it's something we've needed for a very long time.

While it would be a good compromise, I really don't see it happening. It's much easier to promise than deliver. Maybe I'm just cynical over this, but I really don't think the English people would want this, either.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

I think you'd be surprised, a lot of English people are tired of London Centric Britain. London as it's own City State, and England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland as their own states is IMO the way forward for Britain.

[Tryhard]

I think you'd be surprised, a lot of English people are tired of London Centric Britain. London as it's own City State, and England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland as their own states is IMO the way forward for Britain.

Perhaps. We'll see. Once again, I would prefer to be completely independent if possible and Britain could do whatever they wanted, but if that's not possible then a federal UK would be the second best thing.

All is not well in Glasgow. Mostly Unionists are being pointed at for this sort of thing, but I don't doubt that there was provocation from the independence crowd.

[spoiler=stream]stream link

you may have to rewind to see anything of note

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tryhard

[BBM]

Man you think a 55-45 vote is close? The 1995 Quebec referendum in Canada was like 50.5-49.5.

For my part I was a little worried that if Scotland gained independence, all the renewable energy growth in Scotland would grind to a halt and they'd revert to the Northern Oil to finance themselves, so I'm a little glad that the vote was No. But I'm an outsider with no real stake in the matter, so.