What fire emblem should I play next?

[Baldrick]

Weren't you accusing me and dondon of being too LTC minded when we claimed the same thing of FE6 maps you said were too big? Or do you admit FE6 maps are not too big anymore?

The FE4 staves are infinitely repairable and are limited in their power such that a novice can easily use them to the best of their ability.

And FE4's bigness contributes to its atmosphere and corresponds to the plot. You are often crossing an entire country, unabridged, in a single map. FE6 OTOH feels bigger than it needs to be. It might have not felt that way if I hadn't played FE7 first.

[dondon151]

And FE4's bigness contributes to its atmosphere and corresponds to the plot. You are often crossing an entire country, unabridged, in a single map. FE6 OTOH feels bigger than it needs to be. It might have not felt that way if I hadn't played FE7 first.

FE6's bigness contributes to its atmosphere. FE4 OTOH feels bigger than it needs to be.

that's a silly defense made in an effort to justify an inconsistent opinion.

[GrySun]

So to sum it up:

FE1/3 ->

if you want to play FE1 or FE3, don't bother - play FE11 or FE12 instead.

Despite the remake, it would be good for any FE fan to see how and where it all began in its fullest, so it doesn't make the old games obsolete.

FE2 -> a special fire emblem, needs mental preperation for something....different than the regular fire emblem to enjoy.

FE4 -> another strange fire emblem title, but it definitely makes me curious and is on my play list.

FE5 -> suggested that I play 4 before 5, so fe5 is further down the timelist.

FE9 -> apparently a very good fire emblem

FE10 -> the sequel of 9? Comes after 9 then.

FE11/12 -> remakes will come somewhere after the originals.

And thats about it. Although there are some good fan games to try out, mostly gba hacks.

While I do agree fe6 normal mode is somewhere close to the difficulty of fe8 hard mode, compared to other hard modes it actually isn't unfair and the difficulty doesn't come from an unexpected reinforcement killing one of your units. Trial and error too much.

Edited September 17, 2014 by GrySun

[pianime94]

FE11/12 -> sequels will come somewhere after the originals.

I never heard this news 0_0

[Baldrick]

You are often crossing an entire country, unabridged, in a single map

I don't recall maps in FE6 being like this.

The inaccurate insults to my opinion is why I find talking with you is so unpleasant, btw.

[Shadow Mir]

The FE4 staves are infinitely repairable and are limited in their power such that a novice can easily use them to the best of their ability.

Given FE4's bull**** money system, though, good freaking luck getting your staffers enough money to be able to repair those. . .

As a side thought, FE4 wasn't one of those games where you could choose to speed up unit movement, was it?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[BrightBow]

Given FE4's bull**** money system, though, good freaking luck getting your staffers enough money to be able to repair those. . .

It's not too difficult.

First of all, the person to obtain the Return staff is Ethlyn. Unlike Adean, she can fight in the arena. Not as effectively then others but if that is not enough she also can obtain money from Cuan and Dew. And needless to say, Cuan wrecks the arena. So she never has money roubles and Return isn't even that expensive in the first place. It can even be a good idea to use the staff even when you don't necessary need to in order to gain EXP quicker.

The Warp staff is more complicated because as stated above, Adean can't fight. So she gets no money from the arena before she can promote. And because of her movement she is pretty much the last person to reach a village. Nevertheless, she can still obtain money from Dew. Heck, bandits always give a whooping 5000 gold. And later there is the option to leave Warp duties to Levin or MK Lachesis.

And needless to say, the situation only gets easier in the second generation. The massive power of Nanna and Sety makes it even easier for them to maintain their funds compared to their predecessors. Leaf can also join the fun if he got the necessary inheritance in order to reach Master Knight quickly. Though, poor Lana still struggles unless she inherits the Bargain ring.

Edited September 17, 2014 by BrightBow

[Shadow Mir]

So to sum it up:

FE1/3 ->

Despite the remake, it would be good for any FE fan to see how and where it all began in its fullest, so it doesn't make the old games obsolete.

Uhhh,.. This is just me, but aside from being able to claim that you've played all the FE games, there's literally next to no reason to want to play FE1.

[BrightBow]

I would bet that if nothing else it is fun to see Bantu kick tons of ass with his +12 Defense Dragonstone with infinite durability.

Edited September 17, 2014 by BrightBow

[Topazd]

Well, even bad experiences are worth having occasionally. Playing the first one does give a certain appreciation for the more modern titles, if nothing else.

Though I'm personally one of the nutcases that found a degree of enjoyment in FE1. I have a thing for extremely dated RPGs.

[Chiki]

Don't listen to the FE4 hate. IMO it's a masterpiece. :<

[eclipse]

Don't listen to the FE4 hate. IMO it's a masterpiece. :<

. . .of "wait I can't traverse that ONE tile and now someone is stuck in a weird little alley and HURRY UP EVERYONE OR I LOSE SOMEONE COOL!"

I, for one, do not enjoy waiting for characters to physically catch up, or having to backtrack all over the place for whatever reason.

Now, for the topic. . .I'd say 8, just so that you WANT to play even more stuff. . .then go to 9/10 (in that order).

[Irysa]

The FE4 staves are infinitely repairable and are limited in their power such that a novice can easily use them to the best of their ability.

And FE4's bigness contributes to its atmosphere and corresponds to the plot. You are often crossing an entire country, unabridged, in a single map. FE6 OTOH feels bigger than it needs to be. It might have not felt that way if I hadn't played FE7 first.

There is more than enough Hammerne for all your warp needs in a game like FE6, especially when you consider that the game gives you two high mag high staff rank users of the staves. How much easier do you want it to be? You can't maintain a position that it's not intuitive to use warp to alleviate tedium in FE6 yet is in FE4.

I don't recall maps in FE6 being like this.

The inaccurate insults to my opinion is why I find talking with you is so unpleasant, btw.

Who exactly were you quoting? Neither I nor dondon ever made such a claim.

Look, be reasonable here. I'll accept that you're okay with FE4's map size because of X subjective reason, but you're holding a conflicting viewpoint here in regards to resource allocation to speed things up. If it's okay for you to say "the maps aren't too big, you have warp and rescue", why can't I hold the same belief about FE6?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Irysa

[sirmola]

As a side thought, FE4 wasn't one of those games where you could choose to speed up unit movement, was it?

THere is an "enemy speed" config option that changes enemy movement speed. I just checked and the difference is notable (normal is glacial, fast is a reasonable speed) changing the enemy speed to fast is highly recommended, as i see no reason whatsoever that you would want to watch enemies crawl by at "normal" speed. As for money, i rarely have issues, even in my first run. Between rationing village use, the "give" command. and the 1000 gold per non-destroyed friendly castle per unit at chapter end (which the game hints at really obliquely in the prolog, but should probably have been mentioned explicitly.), i never had to much of an issue.

Edited September 17, 2014 by sirmola

[General Horace]

people who think there's no staffwork in fe4 are totally nuts, but people are right, it's not for everybody

that being said aside from like, Chapter 8? (Lilina's Chapter) which is pointlessly huge with only one path and the general nothingingness in a lot of the huge maps (like FE4) its really not too bad

Edited September 17, 2014 by General Horace

[BrightBow]

Oh yeah, I forgot that toggling the animation speed might be an issue. FE4 is the first game in the series with a crapton of configuration options that should be checked out. Needless to say, increasing the movement speed works wonders.

Edited September 17, 2014 by BrightBow

[Shadow Mir]

Don't listen to the FE4 hate. IMO it's a masterpiece. :<

...of "*yawn* When will my foot soldiers catch up to my mounts, dammit?!?"

In all seriousness, FE4 has pretty much THE worst map design of any FE game, for one, and second, having to wait for my foot soldiers to catch up is no fun. Arbitrary backtracking just makes things even worse. And I hate the thought of having to regularly wait an eternity and a half between my turns because every enemy army happens to get their own turn, too.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[General Horace]

...of *yawn* "When will my foot soldiers catch up to my mounts, dammit?!?"

In all seriousness, FE4 has pretty much THE worst map design of any FE game, for one, and second, having to wait for my foot soldiers to catch up is no fun. Arbitrary backtracking just makes things even worse. And I hate the thought of having to regularly wait an eternity and a half between my turns because every enemy army happens to get their own turn, too.

have you seen fe2's maps

I wouldn't call it bad map design, its quite clearly designed to be a totally different idea from other FE games. If each castle you seized were an individual chapter, i'd totally agree with you.

The backtracking is mitigated if you have a brain and use the dancer that restores 4 unit's turns and the multiple return rings along with the return and warp staff that all come before any backtracking occurs, it also doesn't take a whole lot of foresight in figuring out where the next castle you have to seize is, especially in chapter 2 where you have to go to the top left corner of the map, and the only two castles left are up the right side in a straight line. You could even leave some foot units behind to deal with the enemies that spawn there so they can get some exp before the mounts catch up!

Is the extra second the game takes to display "Thracia Phase" really such a bother to you every turn that it ends up taking an eternity? I will admit the enemy phases are long if you dont fastforward (a feature nearly everyone who plays this game has) and there are options in the menu to speed up the enemy phases. The map animations are roughly the same speed as FE9's anyway, and fastforwarding on GC emulators isn't anywhere near as easy.

I will say though, you are saying you don't like the maps and the waiting and whatever other critisism you have because you clearly dislike the game a lot, and for the same reasons I and others are defending it; personal bias.

[Shadow Mir]

have you seen fe2's maps

I wouldn't call it bad map design, its quite clearly designed to be a totally different idea from other FE games. If each castle you seized were an individual chapter, i'd totally agree with you.

The backtracking is mitigated if you have a brain and use the dancer that restores 4 unit's turns and the multiple return rings along with the return and warp staff that all come before any backtracking occurs, it also doesn't take a whole lot of foresight in figuring out where the next castle you have to seize is, especially in chapter 2 where you have to go to the top left corner of the map, and the only two castles left are up the right side in a straight line. You could even leave some foot units behind to deal with the enemies that spawn there so they can get some exp before the mounts catch up!

Is the extra second the game takes to display "Thracia Phase" really such a bother to you every turn that it ends up taking an eternity? I will admit the enemy phases are long if you dont fastforward (a feature nearly everyone who plays this game has) and there are options in the menu to speed up the enemy phases. The map animations are roughly the same speed as FE9's anyway, and fastforwarding on GC emulators isn't anywhere near as easy.

I will say though, you are saying you don't like the maps and the waiting and whatever other critisism you have because you clearly dislike the game a lot, and for the same reasons I and others are defending it; personal bias.

No, I haven't. But I do think that FE4's maps aren't much better, in large part because they're so damn bloated. It's like, "Why the hell do I have to go through like a half dozen dead turns before I get into any real action?!".

Oh, you mean the dancer who only has what, only 6 mov, and thus has issues keeping up so she can do her job, forcing me to slow down? I mean, sure, I might get a couple units in range, but unless I go out of my way for it, I'd rarely, if ever, get a situation where I'd actually get to refresh more than 1 or 2 units.

...Now, I might say I'm guilty as charged of personal bias, but still, with movement being as important as it is in FE4... that means foot soldiers can consider themselves lucky if they even get to contribute a semi-decent amount. What's more, with the amounts of enemy soldiers you have coming at you all at once, that's another point in favor of horses - they can fall back after an attack so they don't wind up getting mobbed and killed come enemy phase.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[General Horace]

fe2 maps

i don't think you can argue fe4's are worse in any way

there are very few scenerios I can think of when I play when I don't face a significant group of enemies for 6 turns, with the exception of the start of chapter 7 (in which Leaf and co are still constantly facing enemies) and the stupid forest in chapter 1 i think everyone thinks is stupid.

as for sylvia, there is a leg ring, a knight ring, staves and all sorts of things that help her keep up.

speaking of staves you ignored that point along with the positioning units for the next phase of the chapter bit entirely which I think are pretty important points

i'm fine with you disliking the game, but if you outright ignore easy ways to circumvent the problems your posing...

Edited September 17, 2014 by General Horace

[Shadow Mir]

fe2 maps

i don't think you can argue fe4's are worse in any way

there are very few scenerios I can think of when I play when I don't face a significant group of enemies for 6 turns, with the exception of the start of chapter 7 (in which Leaf and co are still constantly facing enemies) and the stupid forest in chapter 1 i think everyone thinks is stupid.

as for sylvia, there is a leg ring, a knight ring, staves and all sorts of things that help her keep up.

speaking of staves you ignored that point along with the positioning units for the next phase of the chapter bit entirely which I think are pretty important points

i'm fine with you disliking the game, but if you outright ignore easy ways to circumvent the problems your posing...

I wasn't exactly trying to - I didn't say that FE4 had THE absolute worst map design, only "pretty much THE worst map design", which basically implies that I think there's probably a game that has even worse map design than FE4's.

On that note, I actually agree with you on that forest, in large part because it shows another reason why I think big maps are stupid - a lot of potential for terrain abuse. That gets old fast.

WRT the Knight Ring: That requires Raquesis's paladin guards all to survive, which basically means the only real way to get it without any hassle is to keep her away as far away from the battlefield as possible, given that I think NPCs in general are only good for one thing, with a few exceptions - that one thing being screwing your plans up.

(Speaking of which, weren't those three buffoons voted as one of the top 3 for Worst NPCs way back when?)

Sure, I could position units for the next part of the chapter, but given how tedious playing the game itself can get... I wouldn't want to add the tedium that comes with having to burn even more turns having to prepare for the next phase of the chapter to that.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[dondon151]

The inaccurate insults to my opinion is why I find talking with you is so unpleasant, btw.

is there something wrong with lampooning your opinion? you made a subjective justification (FE4 maps are good because of atmosphere but FE6 maps aren't good because of atmosphere) that could just have easily been worded the other way around and made exactly as much sense.

i'm not sure why you expected to say something like that without being mocked or at least criticized for the statement being meaningless. i avoid criticizing FE4 based on "atmosphere" because i know that it's not a criticism which can be adequately justified.

I don't recall maps in FE6 being like this.

the demarcation between "entire country" and "big fucking region" is not clear-cut. in FE6 chapter 13, you're literally crossing an ocean to invade a continent. in FE6 chapter 19I, you're traversing an entire mountain range in a blizzard. on the other route, in FE6 chapter 19S, you're laying siege to the largest city in sacae. how are the size of the maps incongruous with the "atmosphere" that they're supposed to convey?

people who think there's no staffwork in fe4 are totally nuts, but people are right, it's not for everybody

i think the most fun part of FE4 is leif @ rescue staff in gen 2, but warp and return are pretty trivial in that game. warp confines the player to a small set of target locations and return locks the player to exactly one location.

EDIT: if i had to describe the entirety of FE4 gameplay using analogies with other FE games, i'd say that it's like playing FE6 chapter 24 12 times in a row, except you don't have a supply of boots from the secret shop, you can't trade, and only for the last ~25% of the game or so do you get to have fun with an infinite use rescue staff. i know very few people who like FE6 chapter 24, so it's curious to me why everyone else can tolerate FE4 at all.

Edited September 17, 2014 by dondon151

[Icon of Sin]

Most games are an acquired taste on their own, though FE4 really stands out among the others for its unique mechanics. The comparaison with FE6 Chapter 24 does fit considering how Legendary weapons work for FE4, but I'd consider that with a grain of salt or two considering the various enemy diversity and formations. FE4 also offers a lot of customization which I feel makes replaying the game feel more fresh than some other games.

Warping and rescuing is akin to a spice that pleases the palate of some but I know I personally find it pretty bland.

[dondon151]

Most games are an acquired taste on their own, though FE4 really stands out among the others for its unique mechanics. The comparaison with FE6 Chapter 24 does fit considering how Legendary weapons work for FE4, but I'd consider that with a grain of salt or two considering the various enemy diversity and formations.

how useful is enemy diversity when the two most important characters in the game generally don't care?

FE4 also offers a lot of customization which I feel makes replaying the game feel more fresh than some other games.

i'm not actually certain about this either. the majority of the customization affects the second generation, and the effect of the customization is to create unit permutations. but this is just compensating for what FE4 lacks relative to other FE games, which is a deep character roster. when FE4 offers a variety of parent combinations, most of which are awful, it gets praised for customization. when FE12 offers the largest character roster of any FE game to date (at least, relative to game length; i'm not sure if FE10's roster is larger) on top of reclassing, of which most choices are still awful, it gets blasted for being redundant. i can't help but to see the inconsistency here.

Edited September 17, 2014 by dondon151

[Chiki]

In all seriousness, FE4 has pretty much THE worst map design of any FE game,

Personal opinion. I think FE4 is a masterpiece partially because of its wonderful, beautiful map design. I don't throw around my personal opinion as if it's true. I'm not that obnoxious. In my opinion, FE13 has the most boring and pathetic map design out of any FE game.

for one, and second, having to wait for my foot soldiers to catch up is no fun.

This is a trivial point which is true in most FE games. FE4 has bigger maps, which does admittedly make the problem worse, but FE4 also has Rafiel-style dancing to help make up for that.

Arbitrary backtracking just makes things even worse.

How do you define what "arbitrary backtracking" even is?

And I hate the thought of having to regularly wait an eternity and a half between my turns because every enemy army happens to get their own turn, too.

That's horrible!!!