Czar_Yoshi Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Actually, I think he was praising the Lunatc+ enemy design there. And Lunatic+ is very well designed, it's just so hard that most people mistake it for "fake difficulty" and complain about it instead of trying to solve it. Please don't be one of those people. And how, exactly, does Awakening have excellent maps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 By ball crushing puzzle, I meant it in a good way. L+ is a ball crushingly difficult mode because every enemy is a puzzle. I'm not afraid to admit I'm too much of a bitch for L+, but I won't knock on it. The game has no need to make the maps dynamic when the enemies are more than enough to worry about. Routing is nowhere near as simple as it sounds in L+. Despite maps being seize, the maps are designed in a way which makes seizing a pain. Likewise, in L+ the enemies are designed in a way which makes the primary objective (rout) as much of a pain as possible as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geek Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Crazy theory here, but bear with me. Let's say that a hundred years or so after Mystery, all Tiki's human friends are dead and she's suffering a big case of Who Wants To Live Forever. She runs away to Valm, and Bantu goes with her. She also takes the Falchion and the Shield for some reason (maybe she's mad at Naga and stole them?). Then Medeus comes back (again, surprise!), but there's no Marth to stop him and he starts taking over the world (including taking down Naga) before Tellius's flood comes in all Wind Waker style and wipes him out. This flood also hits Jugdral and Elibe, but Valm isn't really affected, and neither is Awakening's continent (I'm thinking that Archanea was north of Valm and whatever Awakening's continent is). Both continents get some refugees, including the Barhara royalty (which became house Ylisse- their Exalt marks are major Naga holy blood. Also they would have brought the Jugdral Holy Weapons), pirates and bandits (which become Ferox), and the rest of the Manaketes from Elibe (there weren't many, explaining the relative lack of them in Awakening). The locals (future Plegians) happen to be Earth Dragon cultists, which doesn't sit right with the Jugdralis so they start a war. Tiki helps out by giving them the Emblem and Falchion (she doesn't like Earth Dragons either), but otherwise stays well away from the conflict. One of the dragons from Elibe becomes the new Naga to fight Grima and the cultists (maybe a restored Idoun?). The former king of Grandbell would become the first Exalt, and then time would pass and Awakening would happen. Thoughts? Again, if I'm forgetting something important feel free to blow me out of the water. In all seriousness: 10/10 new headcanon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrismaticStar Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I might not even check this thread after I post because Awakening is still my favorite FE, and I know how I'm just stirring up trouble, but here are the ones that even I will acknowledge as a big fan of FE13, followed by the complaints that I just don't get. -Lunatic and Lunatic+ are perfect examples of how NOT to do difficulty in a video game. They rely on rote memorization, RNG, and grinding to what most people would agree is an unacceptable level. I don't care what delusions Czar is under, having to reset until the enemies don't have the ability that enables them to one-shot literally every one of your units 75% of the time is not fair or intelligent difficulty. It also completely relies on the player breaking the game as much as possible and exploiting the fact that it isn't balanced. If you're tuning your difficulty around exploits, something has gone wrong. I understand that many people enjoy the challenge, but I won't pretend for a second that it's good game design, or that I'm some kind of pansy for not wanting to spend my time and effort on it. I'm too lazy to go back and hit the quote button, but in reference to when Czar said that Lunatic is no more RNG based than older Fire Emblem games, I've officially played older Fire Emblem games by this point, and I didn't have to reset 20+ times praying that Chrom pulls off 3 dual guards in one turn just so I could make it through the first few chapters. All this being said, I'd still rather have Lunatic and Lunatic+ than just not have higher difficulties at all, so I'll cease my whining. -Nobody has feet. Why does nobody have feet. -Most of the characters are just one single personified quirk and are obviously one-dimensional (although I'd argue that's a huge improvement over older games where they just get no characterization at all). -The plot is convoluted as all hell (like most time travel stories), and often is only held together by headcannon. There are a ton of loose ends that are left open to speculation, namely the events of the last 10,000 years, everything about Grima, and everything about Morgan. The game tells us basically nothing about the main antagonist, or for that matter, the PROtagonist, or even how or why any of the things that the characters are doing is important. The reasons and rationalizations for things are usually flimsy at best. Complaints that bug me: -Emmeryn sacrificed herself because Chrom was going to hand over the Fire Emblem to Gangrel if she didn't. It was the only way to force his hand and make him do what was best for Ylisse. She had to remove his other option to prevent him from taking it. I will admit however that the Plegian reaction to it where suddenly they're all just now questioning their convictions en masse was forced and bizarre. -The DLC paralogues are just bonus characters. They thought it would be cool if they tossed in Emmeryn as a playable unit, so they did. Then they gave it some barely logical context of debatable canonicity so that the chapter that went along with the character at least made SOME sense. You can fill in the blanks with whatever headcannon works for you, or if her survival really just feels like nonsense just don't do that paralogue. It's optional DLC anyway. -Exactly one game ago there was no continuity at all between the vast majority of FE games, and now people are complaining because the continuity MIGHT not sync up with Marth's games after 10,000 years? Really? 10,000 years isn't long enough to get away with some retcons so that IS can do what they want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) -The DLC paralogues are just bonus characters. They thought it would be cool if they tossed in Emmeryn as a playable unit, so they did. Then they gave it some barely logical context of debatable canonicity so that the chapter that went along with the character at least made SOME sense. You can fill in the blanks with whatever headcannon works for you, or if her survival really just feels like nonsense just don't do that paralogue. It's optional DLC anyway. -Exactly one game ago there was no continuity at all between the vast majority of FE games, and now people are complaining because the continuity MIGHT not sync up with Marth's games after 10,000 years? Really? 10,000 years isn't long enough to get away with some retcons so that IS can do what they want? You know what else is optional? Playing the game, using anyone who isn't Chrom, etc.. It's still OK for people to complain about those things too. It really annoys me when people handwave issues with "then just don't do it" because it's dumb. Yes. Edited October 9, 2014 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 -Lunatic and Lunatic+ are perfect examples of how NOT to do difficulty in a video game. They rely on rote memorization, RNG, and grinding to what most people would agree is an unacceptable level. I don't care what delusions Czar is under, having to reset until the enemies don't have the ability that enables them to one-shot literally every one of your units 75% of the time is not fair or intelligent difficulty. It also completely relies on the player breaking the game as much as possible and exploiting the fact that it isn't balanced. If you're tuning your difficulty around exploits, something has gone wrong. I understand that many people enjoy the challenge, but I won't pretend for a second that it's good game design, or that I'm some kind of pansy for not wanting to spend my time and effort on it. I'm too lazy to go back and hit the quote button, but in reference to when Czar said that Lunatic is no more RNG based than older Fire Emblem games, I've officially played older Fire Emblem games by this point, and I didn't have to reset 20+ times praying that Chrom pulls off 3 dual guards in one turn just so I could make it through the first few chapters. All this being said, I'd still rather have Lunatic and Lunatic+ than just not have higher difficulties at all, so I'll cease my whining. Oh wow. You don't seriously think that I've manage to convince myself that Lunatic+ can be beaten with minimal resetting without doing it multiple times, do you? Do you think I'd say Lunatic has no more RNG than other FEs if I've never beaten it without saves before? Have you not seen Interceptor's work on Cht.2? "having to reset until the enemies don't have the ability that enables them to one-shot literally every one of your units 75% of the time" is indeed not fair difficulty, but it's also not required to beat Lunatic(+). If you're relying on Chrom's Dual Guards, that's your strategy's problem, not the difficulty's. If you can't figure it out, that's fine, there's no shame in that. But please don't tell other people that strategies they use to great effect don't exist. It's rude and makes you look silly and more than a little salty. And seriously, you don't think those difficulties are possible without excessive grinding? By the way, memorization isn't the best thing to rely on in a difficulty where enemies get randomly generated skills each time you attempt a map and is probably why you're resetting so much. Now go read this thread twice: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48207#entry3145464 When you're done, I want a written apology to Lunatic+ for ever implying that it's not an intelligent difficulty. -Exactly one game ago there was no continuity at all between the vast majority of FE games, and now people are complaining because the continuity MIGHT not sync up with Marth's games after 10,000 years? Really? 10,000 years isn't long enough to get away with some retcons so that IS can do what they want? If that one game wants to try to tie all the others together with a storm of references and flat-out fails at almost all of them, then it kind of is a problem. Retcons do exist, but the problem with Awakening's attempt at them is that they replace established lore with... Nothing. Usually when you retcon something, it's because a) it caused a massive fan backlash and you need to can it to control publicity damage, or b) it's in the way of new canon you want to write and you need it gone. Awakening has neither of these excuses- past FEs have been generally well received by those who played them, and Awakening inserts no new canon to replace the stuff it threw out. As a result, it just looks like the Devs forgot to research the verse they were writing for. It's 2,000 years, by the way- and another thing here is that this is the first FE to be a distant sequel to another. All the other continuums have been tied together within a generation or so. But no matter how much time has passed, none of the changes made can be explained by time alone (see all of OP and my questions earlier on this page, especially about Valm's geography). it could be 10 years or 10 billion and they still wouldn't make sense. The length of time the game says has passed also isn't usually a factor in retcons either- you'd want to measure it in time in real life since the canon in question has been set down. That's ~21 years at the most, and most of it was reaffirmed very recently with the releases of FEs 11 and 12. Again, even though that's pretty recent, it still would have been OK to can some things "so IS can do what they want"- if they had done something. They didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I like the theory that Elibe's Dragon Gate is actually a gate to Archanea's world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) -Exactly one game ago there was no continuity at all between the vast majority of FE games, and now people are complaining because the continuity MIGHT not sync up with Marth's games after 10,000 years? Really? 10,000 years isn't long enough to get away with some retcons so that IS can do what they want? Actually the games 1 to 5 were always in the same continuity. Merging the later settings into it too is not a good thing since there is nothing tying these settings together. Especially Tellius. And the fact that it's been 2000 years makes it actually more impressive how Awakening not only fails to tie into the old games but also manages to flat-out contradict them. Also, what do we actually get out of Awakening wrecking the Akaneia continuity? What in this game ties actually into Akaneia? What does this setting make a Akaneia game other then the fact that IS said it was? -The Fire Emblem? It now does everything BUT the specific purpose it was created for: Sealing away the Earth Dragons. They even changed the name of the gems for no reason whatsoever. Same object in-name only... and in the case of the gems, not even that. -The Falchion? The Falchion is no longer the weapon used by the Hero Anri or by Marth to defeat the Shadow Dragon Medeus but a weapon used by the First Exalt who used it to kill an entirely unrelated Shadow Dragon 1000 years ago. The weapon doesn't even look at all like it used to be and it now apparently runs on batteries and needs to be recharged by someone who was dead by the time the sword was used. Nevermind that the weapon was perfectly capable of slaying a honest-to-god Dark Dragon without every being recharged for at least 600 years. In short: It has about as much to do with the original Falchion as Alm's Falchion. It's just the same name. Otherwise it's a generic magical sword. -Narga? She went from a dragon who used her own fang to create a weapon to protect the humans to someone who kills humans that she doesn't consider worthy of using it. Then of course there is the fact that she is supposed to be dead, yet here she is watching the world from a place beyond existence like a deity. You know what, scratch that because even Ashera at least existed physically. Lots of rationalisations are needed here in order to explain how she is the same as the old Narga, none of which are worth it. -Marth? Yeah, like I said nobody cares about him. Only that First Exalt matters. The game mentions his name a few times in order to acknowledge Lucina's cosplay (which has no relevance to the story) and that's it. -Grima? He got nothing to do with anything. He doesn't even have a background, let alone one that ties into Akaneia. -The Manakete? They should be extinct. Dragons became infertile and went insane when being in their real form. This part of the setting is ultimately not only the reason for everything that happened in FE1-3 but also for everything that happened in that game's backstory. It's kinda a big deal. -Tiki? Her new role doesn't make a lot of sense. It could be rationalized but what's the point? Anybody could have played her role because none of the exposition she gives tie into the events of 2000 years ago. Just like everybody else, she just goes on about that damn First Exalt. The game has for all intents and purposes an original setting. It just uses the claim of being in the same world as Akaneia as a justification for the existence of Masked Marth ...who had a horrible pay-off in-universe anyway since not only was there no need for Lucina to cosplay as Marth but there wasn't even a reason for her to disguise at all because the person she could be recognized as wasn't even born yet. And since nobody even considered the possibility that she might be the real deal, the disguise served no purpose to the story whatsoever. In short: Awakening violates Akaneia's continuity for absolutely no reason. Whether on accident or on purpose, that is no way to treat the world that marks the origin of the entire franchise. Edited October 9, 2014 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 -Narga? She went from a dragon who used her own fang to create a weapon to protect the humans to someone who kills humans that she doesn't consider worthy of using it. Then of course there is the fact that she is supposed to be dead, yet here she is watching the world from a place beyond existence like a deity. You know what, scratch that because even Ashera at least existed physically. Lots of rationalisations are needed here in order to explain how she is the same as the old Narga, none of which are worth it. Never mind that she explicitly claims not to be a deity and does no more to help you than turning Falchion back on and teleporting you to the final boss. Or that she's fully replaceable. Or that she's got no acknowledged lint to Tiki ingame save for Tiki being "her voice". Or that place in Valm called "the Dragon's Cradle" which exists solely to violate continuity. I stand by my wild theory from earlier that Awakening does not, in fact, take place on the same continent Marth is from (since Awakening's continent and all the major locations from FE1/3 are never referred to by name and there's nothing tying them together except a cosplay (doesn't count), Falchion and the Emblem (already multiples), and Tiki and Naga (have a history of world-hopping), it's a perfectly valid theory). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirie Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Czar, love the crazy backstory you made up. So perfect. I'm going to combine that with my other headcanon to make the plot of this game not suck so hard. As much as I love Awakening, it does have serious plot flaws. Aside from the plot, the lack of feet is definitely the worst flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think it's pretty clear that they intended the story to be a completely new continuity but shoehorned in Archanea because muh money and muh nostalgia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke of Dozel Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think it's pretty clear that they intended the story to be a completely new continuity but shoehorned in Archanea because muh money and muh nostalgia. They shoehorned FE2, 4 and Tellius in it. The game tries too much to please older fans when we really don't care if Balmung is in the game or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) "Pleasing"? Well, I would refer to what the game does as "going out of it's way to piss on people's dear memories." Shallow pandering like custom MU's with recycled artwork can not hide that not a single shit was given about any of the other games in the series. We are taking about a game that had the player avatar cheerfully burn hundredths of thousands of people to death in order to solve a problem of the day. We are talking about a game that tries to sell scumbags like Tharja and Henry as fetish pandering and comedy, even though if you combine then you essentially get freaking Valter, a man from a game were bloodthirsty, rapist psychos were villains and not "Waifus". We are talking about the game that cloned the cute little dragon girl from the first game and couldn't come up with anything better to do with her but to use her for such blatant pedophile pandering that they even put her into the same outfit as Strawberry from "No More Heroes", a character from an in-universe anime which blatantly pandered to Otakus with a sexual obsession to grade school aged anime girls. IS unironically did the very same thing as a freaking parody of the creepier parts of the Otaku subculture. We are talking about the game were the average party member is a freaking psychopath who gets off on killing people. (Seriously, the guy who is supposed to be "average" literally says "I love this part" before killing someone.) And the game has the gall to try and sell these bastards as so cute, quirky and loveable that you totally want to marry them, to the point were you can't even buy anything without the game shoving their personality substitute down your throat. Edited October 9, 2014 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You know, all that would actually be fine (if more than a little creepy) if the game had any self-awareness about it whatsoever. But no, it takes itself just as seriously as Sonic '06, and we all know how that turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If you apply thought to Awakening you're gonna have a bad time. Just feel with your heart and cri evry tiem someone mentions Emmeryn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi448 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't know if someone can really see Lunatic+ as the ideal difficulty and not LuckBased/Fake Difficulty mode. Also , Bright Bow. I don't understand your hatred to Awakening , i hate too things like a average guy "loving" killing someone off , or all the Fan Service with things like Tharja , and i REALLY hate all those childish , sad attempts at comedy when the story is supossed to be serious. But the game is far to be as bad as you say , it's actually my 4th favorite FE , and i've played most of the games , including Japanase-Only releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I don't know if someone can really see Lunatic+ as the ideal difficulty and not LuckBased/Fake Difficulty mode. Actually, I think he was praising the Lunatc+ enemy design there. And Lunatic+ is very well designed, it's just so hard that most people mistake it for "fake difficulty" and complain about it instead of trying to solve it. Not meaning to sound elitist, but yes, we can.Also, I know Brightbow hates FE13, but he's acting as if every character was like Super Sonico otaku-catered levels of fanservice. Edited October 12, 2014 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandragon Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Not meaning to sound elitist, but yes, we can. Also, I know Brightbow hates FE13, but he's acting as if every character was like Super Sonico otaku-catered levels of fanservice. having to reset because certain enemies have certain skills doesn't sound like "ideal" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi448 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Having to L+R+START even in Preparations Menu? maybe it is ideal for you , but for most people , i'm not so sure. Unless i use Grind , with Grind it would be obviously easy , but i hate having to Grind to complete a game. Repeating the same thing over and over for trivialize the game is not something i would be proud of. Edited October 12, 2014 by Avi448 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I don't know if someone can really see Lunatic+ as the ideal difficulty and not LuckBased/Fake Difficulty mode. Also , Bright Bow. I don't understand your hatred to Awakening , i hate too things like a average guy "loving" killing someone off , or all the Fan Service with things like Tharja , and i REALLY hate all those childish , sad attempts at comedy when the story is supossed to be serious. But the game is far to be as bad as you say , it's actually my 4th favorite FE , and i've played most of the games , including Japanase-Only releases. Not that I don't hate the game but I didn't meant to directly say anything about the game being bad. This was all just about me addressing the statement that "The game tries too much to please older fans". I just didn't use a reply because that one was still the newest post. I do think the game is just plain bad but for a different reason: It's boring. You go from one map were you get Zero Rushed by random enemies from all directions to another map were you get Zerg Rushed from random enemies from all direction to yet another map were you get Zerg Rushed from random enemies from all directions. Progressing in this game is little different from just going from one random encounter to the next or just replaying the same map. It gets old fast. Beating the game just once was a chore. Edited October 12, 2014 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazydoggamer Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't know if someone can really see Lunatic+ as the ideal difficulty and not LuckBased/Fake Difficulty mode. Czar_Yoshi has a post explaining how it's not fake difficulty on the previous page. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50056&p=3389962 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi448 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) There were some good designed maps , too. But what i really hate of the game is that .. the plot is , well , lackluster. And not because the story is bad , it is because the game , well , it is hard to explain , but i will put an example: The Priest from chapter.7 , he only appears in that chapter , have only like 4 or 5 lines , have a generic portrait , and betrays you. It could have been a meaningful and sad event if he appeared before , have at least a unique portrait , more lines and some backstory. But no , he doesn't , Chrom and the others doesn't even reacts to his betrayal , and he never gets mentioned again in all the game. Something similar happened to Phila , which only role in the game seems to be apologizing to Emmeryng for failing. Edited October 12, 2014 by Avi448 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Bit of an oversight I may have just found. I cleared Chapter 20 without killing Cervantes or Excellus. I expected there to be some sort of dialogue like Excelus running away or Cervantes killing himself, but nope. I guess they just poof out of existence when their emperor is killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't know if someone can really see Lunatic+ as the ideal difficulty and not LuckBased/Fake Difficulty mode. Here's a fun tidbit: I'm this site's most active Apo theorycrafter, but I don't actually have a proper postgame team because all my files are busy with Streetpass, support grinding or testing stuff in Lunatic+. And I have two copies of the game. So whether you do or not, I do. And if you look a little closer at all my Lunatic+ posts, I never get on people's cases for saying they don't like it- only for saying that nobody likes it, that I'm wrong for liking it or that it's not possible to take anti-RNG measures to limit your number of resets. And think about what resets actually are: spent time. Resetting on the character select screen for a skill you know will wreck your opening is one thing, and it wastes less than a minute. Resetting ten minutes into the map is another thing. But if you play your cards right, you usually won't get cornered with no way to escape a chance of death after turn 3 or so. So most of your resets are just going to come from the character select screen anyway, and there are usually just one or two enemies per map whose skills need to work out for you to get a good opening. By the way, grinding actually does not trivialize Lunatic+, because you still have to go through the hardest chapters in the game to unlock the Outrealm gate. If you can beat those first five chapters, you're over the hump and it's all downhill from there (you still have to watch out for the same caveats that apply to Lunatic as well such as training too many units or poor money management, but that's not unique to L+). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi448 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I did had a sad experience with money on Lunatic , chapter.23 and most of my team had Iron-Steel weapons with 11-9 uses left. When i got some free time i may actually play Lunatic again , last time i had poor money management and bad luck with some units ( Great Knight Sully was my worst idea ever. Dark Flier Sumia was just useless ) Edited October 12, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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