How many positive and well-made female characters can you think of?

[Tryhard]

Easy, then dont label them as good or bad. But rather 'non sexualised' and 'sexualised'.

If he is going to make a thread about 'well made charas' then discounting all of those aforementioned characters, ofc he is going to get yelled at.

Are you for real?

He probably didn't expect people to seriously suggest characters from hentai games, because that's not exactly what people do, lmao.

Your passion for hentai games is impressive, though.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Tryhard

[--------------------]

He probably didn't expect people to seriously suggest characters from hentai games, because that's not exactly what people do, lmao.

Your passion for hentai games is impressive, though.

Only those that are actually games or are redeemable in some way. There are plenty of H crap out there I want to burn. "One small dot of rat shit spoils the whole bowl of congee."

The point isn't H games. I am complaining at how arbitrary the rules are. A character in a H game that is well written regardless of H content, and a character in a non H game that is well written. BOTH are well written characters, then why the hell should *anyone* give a fuck what type of game they come from?

Shouldn't *this* the information worth spreading? Instead of following the standards of the uneducated media?

Also, your expectation of normality on a forum honestly surprises me.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Akinaoki

[Wen Yang]

He probably didn't expect people to seriously suggest characters from hentai games, because that's not exactly what people do, lmao.

Your passion for hentai games is impressive, though.

And what's wrong about suggesting good characters regardless of source material?

Is a good character less good just because they star in a cheap B-movie?

[Garland Chaos]

Hey, OP, is there any reason why Yumei isn't on the list?

[Ein]

And what's wrong about suggesting good characters regardless of source material?

Is a good character less good just because they star in a cheap B-movie?

lol

These idioms by Aki now this. wow

Depends on the quality of the B-movie now wouldn't it. Some are generally campy and have humor of sorts or something that would make it enjoyable but it can be just plain bad regardless of the input by any of the actors.

Now whether or not the source actually has sort of say in how people are portrayed, negatively or positively what have you and in a variety of such ways, then issues can arise which what may be one such issue that is cause for concern in this thread.

[Magical CC]

Rose from The Legend of Dragoon.

She has a strong personality and a dark past. She's a strong character, both lore and game wise. You dont have to rescue her since she is the one who kept rescuing the main cast. Her role is actually very important once you learned about the plot twist. She also acts as main character's mentor. Her outfit is pretty cool, not revealing nor anything like that. Think of her as a female Obi-wan (which actually suits her since the corrupted dad of the main character is the big bad).

Edited October 19, 2014 by Magical Amber

[Snowy_One]

Besides, I dont think obeying "their" scale of what a "good" female character is like, is productive at all. If the system is shit, im going to burn that system.

"If the cuckoo doesn't sing, kill it".

I fully agree that it's a horrible system as, technically, even if FemShep was distinctly different from ManShep and BA/generally awesome enough to pummel a Reaper while falling from orbit before kicking them into the sun, hold strong emotions and character, and just generally be the best character ever regardless of gender, she'd fail simply because we get to see Liara and her get comfy.

But that's the point. Even by their horrible system in which a good female character can't be sexualized, treated as a reward, or even wear an outfit that could be suggestive, there are plenty of female characters, PLAYABLE female characters, whom fit the list as made with those stupid criteria. From Fujiwara no Mokou to Samus to Athena. Remember LENNETH, a character from one of what is generally considered one of the best games of all times and one of the most well-rounded and presented female characters by my understanding, is gonna have to be chucked into the 'controversial' pile just because of one scene. All because these criteria ARE stupid and limiting. It's just as much about the characters who 'fit' the criteria as well as those who don't 'fit'.

As for why some characters didn't get on the list last night? Some people needed my attention and it was getting late. Not like I can't sit down and edit it more when I get free time after lunch today after all.

[Florete]

I fully agree that it's a horrible system as, technically, even if FemShep was distinctly different from ManShep and BA/generally awesome enough to pummel a Reaper while falling from orbit before kicking them into the sun, hold strong emotions and character, and just generally be the best character ever regardless of gender, she'd fail simply because we get to see Liara and her get comfy.

But that's the point. Even by their horrible system in which a good female character can't be sexualized,

I'm not sure if there's supposed to be a connection between this first paragraph and the next sentence, but "getting comfy" with another character is not inherently being sexualized.

[Snowy_One]

The connection is that SJW's complain about how there are few, if any, female protagonists in games who are not sexualized to some degree. This topic is basically calling that bluff by finding a group of female characters whom are not only playable (I.E. Not only just background, but outright playable), positive in their portrayal (I.E. don't just 'exist' as a vapid shell or some negative stereotype of women), AND aren't sexualized within their games. In addition to that, that many ACTUAL positive portrayals of women in games would FAIL the test despite most people who know them knowing that they are positive, beloved by all (even the side claiming that there are no positives), and generally just good characters. Heck, I'm thinking of moving Milia and Samus down to the second category just to make this point clearer (Milia's outfit is skimpy if entirely justified in game and Samus DOES have Zero Suit Samus... Eh. I don't think she deserves to be punished for an alternate costume/character in Smash and something that wasn't meant to be sexualized in the first place).

Edited October 19, 2014 by Snowy_One

[Lord Glenn]

I can think of a few from the games that I've played:

1) Shion Uzuki (Xenosaga - well, maybe just Episode I...) - Lead character of the game, is a top scientist, entirely independent (at least until her past catches up to her in later games...), etc.

2) Aika (Skies of Arcadia) - Might "fail" the clothing part, but she's a pirate and she's always part of the boarding parties, so she needs to be agile. There are two minor instances where she's objectified (a peeping tom and a high ranking general that hits on her), but she ends up handling both situations. Plus, she lives by herself at the start of the game and is party leader for a small portion of the game, so I think those outweigh the "negatives"...

3) Jenna (Golden Sun, Golden Sun: The Lost Age) - Helps set the events in motion in Book 1, then is instrumental in the development of Book 2.

4) Sveta (Golden Sun: Dark Dawn) - One of the few bright spots in the game and is pretty important to progressing the plot.

5) Karis (Golden Sun: Dark Dawn) - Pretty much has her importance stolen by Sveta at the midway point, but is basically the driving element in keeping the group focused at the beginning.

6) Marina (Mischief Makers) - Not sure on this one myself, since I'm pretty sure she's an android as opposed to an actual human...?

[Wen Yang]

The connection is that SJW's complain about how there are few, if any, female protagonists in games who are not sexualized to some degree. This topic is basically calling that bluff by finding a group of female characters whom are not only playable (I.E. Not only just background, but outright playable), positive in their portrayal (I.E. don't just 'exist' as a vapid shell or some negative stereotype of women), AND aren't sexualized within their games. In addition to that, that many ACTUAL positive portrayals of women in games would FAIL the test despite most people who know them knowing that they are positive, beloved by all (even the side claiming that there are no positives), and generally just good characters. Heck, I'm thinking of moving Milia and Samus down to the second category just to make this point clearer (Milia's outfit is skimpy if entirely justified in game and Samus DOES have Zero Suit Samus... Eh. I don't think she deserves to be punished for an alternate costume/character in Smash and something that wasn't meant to be sexualized in the first place).

and I still stand that by this point you might as well rename this "My prude list".

[sirmola]

Two from dragon quest 4: Alena, the tomboy martial artist princess (who actualy breaks out of her own castle after her father forbids her from adventuring) and meena the gypsy seer and cleric. Maya, who is meena's sister and and an exotic dancer does not count due to her outfit and slutty characterization. The female version of the protagonist does not count because the gender selection changes almost nothing (to the point where the female protagonest is a lesbian because they didn't bother to change the gender of the npc love interest.)

Also, lena (the princess who searches for her father), ferris (the crossdressing pirate who is secretly lena's sister), and krile (the princess from another world who joins your party after the villain kills her grandfather (who probably tops most lists most competent rpg old people)) from final fantasy 5 all count.

Also, dosen't celes kind of get driven by only love for locke in the second half of final fantasy 6(and her outfit has no pants)? Also, terra is wearing a grand total of no clothing whatsoever when transformed, but that might count as an alternate costume (although she transfoms a lot in this game).

Also, sheba from golden sun 2 probably counts. (jenna is kidnapped at the begining of golden sun 1 and you spent the entire game chasing after her, but that situation is a lot more complicated than it sounds.)

she never tries to escape because she learns that the bad guys are trying to save the world, and the heros are misinformed.

Edited October 20, 2014 by sirmola

[Kirie]

A few that I think fit well and haven't been mentioned yet that I've seen (based on the OP and skimming through the rest of the thread):

Lemina of Lunar 2: Eternal Blue: Has her own story arc and motivations surrounding maintaining and reviving her family's legacy (a magic school that has run into disrepute), and a good amount of character growth. Not overly sexualized, nor prey to any typical female tropes. I would argue that Jean of the same game also fits, except that for the first half of the game (and in almost all of her given artwork) she is stuck in a rather sexualized outfit (though this does change at a very plot-relevant moment). However, she has some amazing character growth and plot and is a fun and positive female character.

Miku Hinasaki of Fatal Frame/Zero: Goes on an adventure to find her missing brother and in the process learns how to exorcise ghosts and solves a mystery. Pretty badass, and definitely not overly feminized or sexualized. Her character loses some of her strength and vitality in later games, but in the original for sure, she is definitely a strong female protagonist. Mio Amakura of the sequel, Crimson Butterfly, also fits as a well-made female protagonist for similar reasons, though Miku gets more points for being the original, I believe. Like Miku, Mio falls prey to losing some of her strength in later games, which is a shame.

[Balcerzak]

The "playable" distinction kind of irks me, as it prevents antagonists like Katrina, or hell even Baba Yaga, from Quest for Glory IV, or supporting cast like Uhura from QFG3.

In any case, Kate Walker from Syberia should be a shoe-in.

Ashley Robbins from Trace Memory/Another Code seems a reasonable suggestion.

Kate Hathaway from Again might not fit the "playable" if you're being incredibly strict on your adventure games.

I'm having trouble remembering how much focus Kori Twelves had in Time Hollow, but she's featured on the cover, so that's a good sign at least.

June from 999 should be considered, and Phi and Luna from VLR. Then again if you're super hung up on "playable" I guess you'd have to disqualify them.

Shouko for sure, but probably the entire cast of Aoishiro. Migiwa, Kaya, and Kohaku seem especially strong, imo.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i wouldn't say anything about June is positive, but she is well made

[Snowy_One]

Alright. Another list update. Hopefully next-time things can be alphabetized for easier reading. Anyways, a few quick questions.

1) 'Why wasn't my character picked?'

A: Most likely cause you either didn't provide a reason for them to be picked and/or the image I found for them was just too sexualized for proper use. I'm not against putting scantily clad women on this list, but I have to know that said scantiness is also mixed with a positive character. If I only have an image to go off of...

2) Why is this character in the controversial half and this one not?

A: Depends. Most likely because the line for 'scantily clad/sexualized' is so blurry that it's impossible to follow at times; which is a good thing for the purposes of this list. Is a woman wearing a black tank-top where you can see a bit of cleavage sexualized or not? Let the people who whine about sexualization of women in media whine about it.

3) But isn't this a 'prude' list?

A: Of course it is. The whole point is that there are strong, positive, women who have to be discounted as 'good' female characters because of these standards as well as that there are strong, positive, women who STILL fit despite them.

4) This character is/isn't sexualized!

A: If it's clear that a character really isn't (at least within reason) I'll relocate them to the other part of the list. As said before, a lot of characters are blurry. For example, Edea's costume in the Spell Fencer job could count as sexualized, but there is no guarantee at all she'll touch that job outside of completion. Remember, this is not about just one of the two lists, but both of them.

[Loki Laufeyson]

3) But isn't this a 'prude' list?

A: Of course it is. The whole point is that there are strong, positive, women who have to be discounted as 'good' female characters because of these standards as well as that there are strong, positive, women who STILL fit despite them.

Prudishness is not exactly a positive, bruh.

[Wen Yang]

Prudishness is not exactly a positive, bruh.

Seconded.

[Tryhard]

A character in a H game that is well written regardless of H content, and a character in a non H game that is well written. BOTH are well written characters, then why the hell should *anyone* give a fuck what type of game they come from?

Shouldn't *this* the information worth spreading? Instead of following the standards of the uneducated media?

Agreed, on at least the idea. I'm just saying why he's doing it though, and it makes sense if you want to present it to these specific people. If it bothers you so much you can go make your own topics.

He also isn't saying being prudish is a good thing @above.

Also, your expectation of normality on a forum honestly surprises me.

I don't expect normality, and I normally don't get it.

And what's wrong about suggesting good characters regardless of source material?

Is a good character less good just because they star in a cheap B-movie?

This falls apart when you realise that generally characters in porn games are for the primary purpose of pornography, when generally this is not ever the case in B-movies.

It's like trying to claim porn videos for "the plot". You can tell me the characters are really, really good, but that's gonna be the first thing people think of, and like I said, in this case, immediately discounted.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Tryhard

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Seconded.

third

[Snowy_One]

Sorry, but this is not a democracy and the point of this is that some of these characters, whom are indeed potent, empowering, and all-around awesome, could potentially fail the standards set by people convinced that all female characters whom aren't prudish were made just as eye-candy for a male-dominated audience.

Milia Maxwell is a freaking awesome and well-made character. She is the Terminator with magic instead of technology and just as awesome to see in action, well made in her character (her determination, struggles with humanity, and difficulty in dealing with even basic stuff like having to eat). Yet she fails just because she wears a mini-skirt. Meanwhile Penelo (one of the more disliked and a generally 'useless' character in her own game) 'succeeds' despite being almost entirely irrelevant to the story and only squeaking past as she'll be one of the players few teammates for a while. While she does become more important enough to get past without blurring the line in Revenant Wings, I want you to think about that.

The female Terminator is considered 'worse for women' than a character who is near-useless in her own game and had to wait for a side-game to be good. All because she wears a miniskirt. That's not to knock either character, but rather how stupid the 'prudish' viewpoint some of these... I can't think of any actual feminist that deserves to be grouped in with people who seem to feel a woman who isn't in a burka is somehow sexuaizing women, so... idiots is.

If there are positive women in H-games more power to them. If they are even exceptionally positive, great. But I'd much rather not put them on as doing so can potentially undermine the whole point of this list (well, one of them. This is a legit effort to gather together a collection of positive female characters, but a topic can have multiple points). At the very least I'd want to be VERY careful about knowingly putting H-game characters on the list, especially since I've only played one and already have to trust others for a bunch of these characters cause I haven't played their games as well. So having a character whom I can easily find hentai of that isn't just rule 34 but actually in the game itself as a common feature... Yea... I'd be wary at the least.

If I can get two people to vouch for an H-game character I will put them on the list. I will even provide a vouch right now for Saber and Yojimbo as they are positive (enough at least) to be considered 'good' despite being in an H-game. But I want references and explanations at the very least.

[Rapier]

Sorry, but this is not a democracy and the point of this is that some of these characters, whom are indeed potent, empowering, and all-around awesome, could potentially fail the standards set by people convinced that all female characters whom aren't prudish were made just as eye-candy for a male-dominated audience.

Milia Maxwell is a freaking awesome and well-made character. She is the Terminator with magic instead of technology and just as awesome to see in action, well made in her character (her determination, struggles with humanity, and difficulty in dealing with even basic stuff like having to eat). Yet she fails just because she wears a mini-skirt.

I'm afraid I've to point that there's something wrong with this criteria. If female characters on mini-skirts are solely made to be eye candies to a male dominant society, what can we conclude from eye candy male characters? I really dislike when someone employs double standards for their judgments, because this feminist argument can also be applied toward male characters without being sign of a "female dominant society".

That aside, I believe Saber should also be in the list. She's a strong, independent woman without necessarily being a woman wearing men's pants, or acting like a man. Same goes to Franziska von Karma and Justine Courtney/Hakari Mikagami (Ace Attorney Investigations 2, though it fails the "breasts of the size of her head" criteria). There's also Ashe, from Mega Man ZX Advent.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Rapier

[Florete]

Sorry, but this is not a democracy and the point of this is that some of these characters, whom are indeed potent, empowering, and all-around awesome, could potentially fail the standards set by people convinced that all female characters whom aren't prudish were made just as eye-candy for a male-dominated audience.

This group sounds like people who shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place.

[Chiki]

Mai Shiranui from King of Fighters.

[eclipse]

I'm having trouble remembering how much focus Kori Twelves had in Time Hollow, but she's featured on the cover, so that's a good sign at least.

In a nutshell:

She exists as the reason why things go haywire, and is more of a love interest than anything. The ideal ending is where she ends up being married to Kairos' uncle.

Probably wouldn't include her because of that.