Yeah, you need to be a masochist to enjoy Lunatic. Lunatic+ is too painful for them

[Kirie]

I really enjoy Lunatic mode. It's basically perfect for me; a nice blend of difficulty and thinking while still giving you freedom to do silly things with classes/pairings/challenges/whatever. I appreciate Lunatic+ on paper and I think it's well designed from what I've seen, read about, heard from friends, etc., but I don't plan on playing it myself anytime soon, if at all.

[Zepher-Tensho]

Yea that unlucky crit thing is why I don't like -luk. The RNG seems to have its days where the enemies with 10 or less crit are just killing me all day, and my 80+ hit rates are missing left and right. I swear some days the RNG goddess just doesn't want me to win.

[shadowofchaos]

Hello 1% Elthunder Mage crit. Thanks, -luk.

Not to mention when they have focus.

[Roflolxp54]

I guess PEMN -- I most likely gotten pretty lucky that I didn't have to reset as much when compared to other people (even though Chapters 1-3 are annoying to do) when I did my Lunatic+ Classic run (+HP/-Lck M!Robin did get several good level ups and got extra exp. from event tiles and got to level 18 by Chapter 4 and completely steamrolled it with Frederick support on the first try after application of certain Renown rewards).

[Avi448]

Lunatic Early Game can be trivialized a little ( Chrom Chapter.1 Solo in the fort with Frederick , for example ) , but when you hit chapter.6 it will be a bit easier , until you reach Chapter.21 and you wonder how the Risen has 22MT Silver Weapons ...

[Czar_Yoshi]

Actually hackforges start appearing on generic enemies as early as Cht.18, iirc. The bosses come with them a chapter or two earlier.

[XeKr]

A lot of the specialized weapons like Longbows and effective weaponry are forged to a greater extent earlier (forged when most stuff isn't, hacked forged when most stuff is the normal forge). They show up en masse C21 though iirc.

[Shadow Mir]

Lunatic+ can feel that way sometimes, but in reality there are very few scenarios a well-built, non-grinded team can't escape reliably. Heck, even C2 has a very reliable clear!

Now, I personally think Lunatic+ would've been better done by having, say, Hawkeye and one skill specific to each class (Warriors and bowclasses getting Counter, Paladins getting Aegis, Thwomps getting Pavise, you catch my drift), to make things a bit more consistent and to reduce the degree to which Counter is a load of baloney, but that doesn't mean Lunatic+ as it is is bad. L+ is possible and seriously challenging, but I think L was generally a better-designed mode.

Actually. it's because of Counter that I feel Lunatic+ is a load of bull. It's irritating enough on the unit type that actually gets it, but when you make it so that literally (next to) any unit can get it...? That's just not something I can tolerate.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Cancer Lancer]

Alternatively, git gud.

/mandatory snarky comment

[Thor Odinson]

Hawkeye+Luna combo is worse than Counter

Counter is entirely trivialisable, Hawkeye+Luna not so much you have to kill them really fast

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Shadow Mir]

Hawkeye+Luna combo is worse than Counter

Counter is entirely trivialisable, Hawkeye+Luna not so much you have to kill them really fast

Well, I can agree there - there's also the part where a map can become unwinnable if too many enemies, or the wrong enemy, winds up with both of those. Counter, though, deserves special mention, in large part because it can be a real nuisance if it winds up on, say, an archer or something (ESPECIALLY if paired up with Aegis+, as one of Rey's videos pointed out).

[Thor Odinson]

Counter Archers are no worse than Counter Tomahawk Berserkers or anything with 1-2 range + counter. (also just chuck a handaxe at it or something if it has Aegis+)

I think you need to just, acknowledge that L+ is too hard for you but not actually that bad for more skilled players and stop making it sound more unfair than it actually is

Considering I (and other SF users) played it in nogrind and it wasn't that bad past earlygame

It's literally called Lunatic+

It exists to be pretty tough

If it's going to limit some playstyles so be it

Difficulty and Flexibility are inversely proportional to each other and even then you still have some degree of options in L+ past earlygame

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Czar_Yoshi]

Archers are actually the most benign place in the game to see Counter. Counter isn't deadly because it limits your options, it's deadly because if you have to eat five of them on EP then you need to be unequipped or you die. On an Archer, you get to take it entirely on your own terms- you'll likely take damage, it'll be frustrating, but you'd also take damage from a Vantage+ Mage or just about anything else in the game.

[Shadow Mir]

Counter Archers are no worse than Counter Tomahawk Berserkers or anything with 1-2 range + counter. (also just chuck a handaxe at it or something if it has Aegis+)

I think you need to just, acknowledge that L+ is too hard for you but not actually that bad for more skilled players and stop making it sound more unfair than it actually is

Considering I (and other SF users) played it in nogrind and it wasn't that bad past earlygame

It's literally called Lunatic+

It exists to be pretty tough

If it's going to limit some playstyles so be it

Difficulty and Flexibility are inversely proportional to each other and even then you still have some degree of options in L+ past earlygame

True that, though I'd say a Counter Archer and a Counter Tomahawk Berserker are apples and oranges. Also, the video in question had the boss of said chapter with Counter and Aegis+ (and to put it in perspective, you only have one Javelin in said chapter - and when said boss has like 15 defense, javelin chucking might not be a good idea).

IMHO, being hard isn't the problem - it's when it's hard for all the wrong reasons (again, Exhibit A: Battle Before Dawn HHM. I don't want to feel like I'm playing that over and over. Hell, I once compared Lunatic+ to Swagger.).

Archers are actually the most benign place in the game to see Counter. Counter isn't deadly because it limits your options, it's deadly because if you have to eat five of them on EP then you need to be unequipped or you die. On an Archer, you get to take it entirely on your own terms- you'll likely take damage, it'll be frustrating, but you'd also take damage from a Vantage+ Mage or just about anything else in the game.

Conceded.

[Thor Odinson]

Have you actually even given L+ a proper try

if not you don't have room to talk

there are places in L+ that literally felt EASY it's nowhere near as bad as you made it out to be

If you know what you're doing in L+, you are in control regardless of skill rolls

Jaffar death in BBD is entirely out of your control

If it's post-chapter3--and it definitely is, because the bosses up through chapter 3 are axedude, axedude, axedude, and reimi -- you have access to every weapon not Regalia if you can just connect online once. If you're on this forum, you're likely to have wifi. If you purchased a 3ds not from online but from gamestop, you probably have a starbucks close enough to get wifi too. Renown Levin Sword is also an option even if you don't have a hell lot of renown, since it's one of the earlier renowns and L+ is DEFINITELY not your first playthrough. Levin sword is still a sword, and would not be blocked by Aegis anyway.

Rey's a good friend of mine, but he doesn't always make the best gameplay decisions. I don't always make the best gameplay decisions, and there's still many players I'd say are my better than me on this forum. Being not the best FE players, sometimes we make tactical mistakes, even on video. Just because it's on video doesn't mean it's not something you can't get around.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Shadow Mir]

Have you actually even given L+ a proper try

if not you don't have room to talk

there are places in L+ that literally felt EASY it's nowhere near as bad as you made it out to be

If you know what you're doing in L+, you are in control regardless of skill rolls

Jaffar death in BBD is entirely out of your control

If it's post-chapter3--and it definitely is, because the bosses up through chapter 3 are axedude, axedude, axedude, and reimi -- you have access to every weapon not Regalia if you can just connect online once. If you're on this forum, you're likely to have wifi. If you purchased a 3ds not from online but from gamestop, you probably have a starbucks close enough to get wifi too. Renown Levin Sword is also an option even if you don't have a hell lot of renown, since it's one of the earlier renowns and L+ is DEFINITELY not your first playthrough. Levin sword is still a sword, and would not be blocked by Aegis anyway.

Rey's a good friend of mine, but he doesn't always make the best gameplay decisions. I don't always make the best gameplay decisions, and there's still many players I'd say are my better than me on this forum. Being not the best FE players, sometimes we make tactical mistakes, even on video. Just because it's on video doesn't mean it's not something you can't get around.

I thought you can't access the bonus box until after chapter 3? If so, that Levin Sword ain't helping you there.

[Thor Odinson]

Then that is not a boss don't make it sound like you're fighting a boss

There are no archer bosses period

You have 2 Javelin users (technically 3 but I'm discounting Sumia against archers), tradepass it, or Javelin then get a strong oneshot melee finish with Fred x Silver Lance OTP

There is always a way you just need to actually think about what you're doing

oh wait you're talking about archers and counteraegis bosses as separate cases huh, you made it like you're talking about the same thing

anyway you're unlikely to even fight raimi until all the enemies are dead because they kinda chase you around the map

You take your magic unit (MU), pair with Chrom x Rapier, get chrom to dualstrike

Raimi cannot oneround you and you get a heal within the chapter, so just pair miriel with lissa and keep the heals up

EZ

It's the same principle to Grimaslaying in Final just much earlier and you don't have to do it in 2 turns

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Shadow Mir]

Then that is not a boss don't make it sound like you're fighting a boss

There are no archer bosses period

You have 2 Javelin users (technically 3 but I'm discounting Sumia against archers), tradepass it, or Javelin then get a strong oneshot melee finish with Fred

There is always a way you just need to actually think about what you're doing

I'm talking specifically about Raimi, where I wouldn't exactly want to be chucking javelins and praying that I get dual strikes from Chrom or Frederick, who are about the only people that can do more than scratch damage to her. I mean, sure, there might be a way out, but what if that way out leaves me at the mercy of many elements of luck?

[XeKr]

Tbh one of the best design decisions made (whether conscious or not) is that skills can’t activate on Dual Strikes, which strongly encourages the player toward the most thematic Awakening mechanic (Dual system) on the more troublesome enemies (final boss Pavise, numerous L+ skill combinations, etcetc)

(Raimi does not like Hammer dual strikes)

I'm talking specifically about Raimi, where I wouldn't exactly want to be chucking javelins and praying that I get dual strikes from Chrom or Frederick, who are about the only people that can do more than scratch damage to her. I mean, sure, there might be a way out, but what if that way out leaves me at the mercy of many elements of luck?

Why not? Boss specifically doesn't move.

FE is RNG.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm talking specifically about Raimi, where I wouldn't exactly want to be chucking javelins and praying that I get dual strikes from Chrom or Frederick, who are about the only people that can do more than scratch damage to her. I mean, sure, there might be a way out, but what if that way out leaves me at the mercy of many elements of luck?

See above edits, and also XeKr's post

Raimi is EASY. By the time you get to Raimi if you only attack on enemy phase and heal on player phase she literally cannot kill you. She is not doubling ever, she is not critting (or if she is, stick more units around you and she isn't anymore), she only does oneshot damage that a trained MU(or if not MU, then any Frederick) definitely can take. The only element of luck there is maybe a couple extra turns sitting there. It's not a matter of life or death.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Shadow Mir]

Tbh one of the best design decisions made (whether conscious or not) is that skills can’t activate on Dual Strikes, which strongly encourages the player toward the most thematic Awakening mechanic (Dual system) on the more troublesome enemies (final boss Pavise, numerous L+ skill combinations, etcetc)

(Raimi does not like Hammer dual strikes)

Why not? Boss specifically doesn't move.

FE is RNG.

That might be true, but I wouldn't exactly like to have to gamble on something that's about a 1 in 4 chance to get anywhere.

I already mentioned that, albeit indirectly. The thing is, as a support, Fred doesn't get the hit boost to shore up the hammer's shitty hit (to put it in perspective, he's only got 50%-ish hit on her with the hammer at base).

[XeKr]

I don’t see how it’s a gamble if there’s no chance of death. It's especially trivial since it's unnecessary to attack on player phase (for the most safety), so after Raimi's attack and your counter ends, it's already your turn again to heal/end turn. And there's skipping and such.

In extreme contexts like ltc/speedrun, it’s a wash. Normal/Casual (and like every game without fixed RNG ever) has a significant random component in that case.

fwiw, Frederick has triangle advantage and more Skl (Chrom does have disadvantage but Sword accuracy and Dual Strike+) and probably requires far less hits between his Str and 33 effective mt vs. 12 mt on the Rapier.

Another consideration is, Frederick has Outdoor Fighter and could potentially train Axe rank quickly for the rank bonus with Discipline + Vaike's axe.

Edited October 30, 2014 by XeKr

[Thor Odinson]

Chrom x MU Support C gives a ~40% chance of dual strike, and Raimi is always doubled especially with Chrom support.

Fred x MU Support C gives something less but it's more than 25%.

.4*.4+2(.*4*.6)=.64 which is far higher than 1/4 if you're going the Chrom route.

Support window opens prior to chapter 2 and you should have a C with at least one if not both of them unless you're doing nopairup.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Hawkeye+Luna combo is worse than Counter

Counter is entirely trivialisable, Hawkeye+Luna not so much you have to kill them really fast

Galeforce is still something that can deal with that combo as easily as it does Counter. I also want to point out that that specific combo really should by all rights be stronger simply because it requires the enemy to actually roll both skills on its randomization. As such, Counter is far, far more common among the enemies. And really, early-mid game, Counter is nearly as threatening due to more limited options and in runs where more units are used, the Def/Res of many units won't be high enough for Luna+ to add that much more damage (compare this to the Lunatic+ enemies have crap Def/Res and really high HP, which makes it Counter heaven on them).

Luna+ (regardless of Hawkeye) does gain more teeth as the game progresses, though, especially when taking into account all the cheat forges and enemies picking up free Hit+10 and Hit+20 skills that make dodge-tanking increasingly impractical.

[Thor Odinson]

Counter can be entirely negated by going into bows, though. Galeforce is nice, of course. My second L+ run I did with grind (because I wanted to do postgame stuff on that file and I've already cleared nogrind) and all bow classes with Galeforce made it such a cakewalk I was actually laughing the entire time at how easy it was and I didn't have a hard time with postearlygame L+ nogrind in the first place.

Not saying that it's unfair, by any means, just more annoying than Counter.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Thor Odinson