What could have made SSB4 better?

[sirmola]

also Lucas was removed because Japan hates mother 3 and the mother series is officially dead cause the creator stopped working on it. I can only guess why Wolf was removed though.

What? there is that 3ds collection in the works. Also, Didn't mother 3 sell pretty well in japan? Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if lucas ends up as dlc.

Note: i have not bought ssb3ds, and do not plan to, mostly because none of my friends own it and there is not single player campaign like brawl. (classic isin't meaty enough for my taste)

[Master Awesome]

also Lucas was removed because Japan hates mother 3 and the mother series is officially dead cause the creator stopped working on it. I can only guess why Wolf was removed though.

I thought Wolf would have been the one from brawl to make it, since Sakurai has stated he's a Wolf fan and originally wanted him in melee over Falco. I guess two clones of Fox is just too much.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

a game can sell well and still be disliked, look at Devil May Cry 2.

japan disliked mother 3 because it took shots at their lifestyle and beliefs, not to mention they also felt like it was "too dark" to be a mother game.

either way, Lucas is gone as proof that japan just doesn't care about him.

and honestly Wolf is more of a luigi type clone then an actual clone, just like Lucas.

though with starfox getting another game i'm not sure why he was cut

[Florete]

I thought Wolf would have been the one from brawl to make it, since Sakurai has stated he's a Wolf fan and originally wanted him in melee over Falco. I guess two clones of Fox is just too much.

But Brawl didn't have any Fox clones. And neither does SSB4.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

But Brawl didn't have any Fox clones. And neither does SSB4.

what do you mean by this?

[Florete]

what do you mean by this?

Exactly as I said.

Falco was a Fox clone in Melee, but to call him a Fox clone in Brawl is to basically ignore all their non-special attacks, and even then, only two of their specials are particularly similar. And then Wolf is even less like Fox than Falco is. Literally every single one of Wolf's attacks is different from Fox (and Falco, for that matter) except his reflector.

I mean, I can kind of understand why people call Falco a Fox clone even though I disagree, but I never understood how people could call Wolf a Fox clone.

[Jotari]

Exactly as I said.

Falco was a Fox clone in Melee, but to call him a Fox clone in Brawl is to basically ignore all their non-special attacks, and even then, only two of their specials are particularly similar. And then Wolf is even less like Fox than Falco is. Literally every single one of Wolf's attacks is different from Fox (and Falco, for that matter) except his reflector.

I mean, I can kind of understand why people call Falco a Fox clone even though I disagree, but I never understood how people could call Wolf a Fox clone.

This entirely. Samus and Captian Falcon still share more moves than Fox and Wolf did. Their specials might visually be similar to each other but aside from the reflector they work very differently.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Jotari

[metalsnowman3]

I understand why some people dislike melee and its fans, but honestly think of how popular it would be if the physics were like melee. There is a reason why the melee scene is still growing after 13 years or whatever and people like melee so much that they modded brawl and that has become big too.

Also, how many people who bought smash 4 would not have bought it if the physics were similar to melee? (obviously no one knows)

It just seems like a no brainer to me personally because melee is fun at the competitive level and non competitive level. Unfortunately Smash 4 just isn't as fun at the competitive level compared to melee so there is still a divide in the smash community.

I appreciate and play Smash 4 and what Sakurai did but it is sad to think of how much better it could have been.

[Roflolxp54]

As the title states. Here's what I think should have been added to make SSB4 better.

-A name.It's just "Super smash bros for 3ds/wiiu" What happened to adding that battle word,like for ssb2 and ssb3 which was called super smash bros brawl and melee?

-I honestly hated the sonic alts. Where's the shadow /silver alts?Possibly classic sonic alt too?

-Maybe a ghostly adventures patman alt?

-Theres a daisy and and blood falcon alt for peach and captain falcon, but why wasnt the name changed like bowser jr's alts?

-If I'm wrong about this sorry,but there should be a purple luigi alt that looks like waluigi.

-Birdo alt for yoshi

-Lucina's alts were characters in FEA that weren't her possible mothers. (besides Sumia) Cordelia alt was weird,because it just gives you some Chrom x Cordelia theories o_O I wanted a olivia alt, and maribelle alt too.Lissa alt could be replaced with maribelle,because incest is not wincest in smash bros :/

-Shiny alt for lucario.I will DEFINETLY use that.

-Lucas alt for ness

-Demise alt for ganon

-Dr mario and dark pit should have just been alts. Maybe toon link,falco,and Lucina too

-Dixie alt for diddy

This all sounds like fanservice but whatever :P What do u think could make ssb4 better?

-Perhaps because this is the first time that this rendition of Smash is released for 2 consoles (home console and handheld); better differentiation

-There is already a Silver-the-Hedgehog-themed palette swap (the colors are close to it). Also, why aren't you asking this regarding SSBB? And, Shadow and Silver do not have the same abilities as Sonic does; also Shadow is an Assist Trophy once again.

-Like Mega Man, I'm pretty sure that Pac-Man's appearance is for nostalgia fanservice and because of Namco Bandai's involvement in development

-Learn the difference between palette swaps and alternate characters

-Luigi already has a Waluigi-themed palette swap

-Nope.avi

-Most of the palette swaps are based off of female FE13 characters that scored high on the Japanese FE13 popularity poll (Tharja at 3rd place, Cordelia at 4th, Cherche at 5th and Tiki at 6th in the female category). Lissa is there since she is the first female Shepherd the player meets and Sumia is there just to reinforce the game shipping ChromxSumia. Nowi might be there probably because she is the first manakete who joins the Shepherds, plus a lot of people like her.

-This one I can agree with as only Charizard, Pikachu and Greninja have any palette swaps that resemble their Shiny colors.

-Fans would be pissed -- many want Lucas back as a playable fighter

-Nope.avi

-Ew. Dr. Mario has never used the FLUDD and Dark Pit has never used the Three Sacred Treasures. And you should also be looking at SSB64's Luigi and the clones present in SSBM and SSBB.

-Diddy Kong has a Dixie-Kong-themed palette swap

Edited November 4, 2014 by Roflolxp54

[Randoman]

I understand why some people dislike melee and its fans, but honestly think of how popular it would be if the physics were like melee. There is a reason why the melee scene is still growing after 13 years or whatever and people like melee so much that they modded brawl and that has become big too.

Also, how many people who bought smash 4 would not have bought it if the physics were similar to melee? (obviously no one knows)

It just seems like a no brainer to me personally because melee is fun at the competitive level and non competitive level. Unfortunately Smash 4 just isn't as fun at the competitive level compared to melee so there is still a divide in the smash community.

I appreciate and play Smash 4 and what Sakurai did but it is sad to think of how much better it could have been.

SSB4 being like Melee would admittingly cut down on a lot of the online complaining. Though keep in mind, there are a lot of people who play Smash Bros. that don't bother with online forums, communities, and such and a lot of those people don't bother with competitive level play, whether it's learning skills from it or even reading about it. If SSB4 was more like Melee, I could imagine a lot of those people would hate it because of how easy it is to die and how the physics are too fast to be ideal in free for alls (which is what most casuals would be playing). Those people would probably consider Melee physics in SSB4 to be a big downgrade after Brawl made survivability much easier (especially compared to Melee's "falling like a brick" physics and dying from losing track of your character in free for alls being quite common). Just because the complaining online about the game would greatly decrease, that doesn't mean the complaints overall would decrease since you have all the casuals and non-online posting gamers to take into account, whose voices aren't as easily heard since they don't shove it down everyone's throats online.

And you know what's even more sad than Smash 4 potentially being "better than it could've been?" How about Sakurai literally developing the Smash Bros. games at the cost of his health, sanity, social life, and happiness? Have you even seen all the horrible things Sakurai endures and puts himself through to develop these games like working on Smash Bros. games every day of the week and only getting 4 hours of sleep every night? How about him dealing with huge problems with his wrist yet still developing the Smash Bros. games? Or how about his latest article where he even goes thinking borderline suicidal thoughts during a Smash Bros. game's development because that's how hard it is on him and that's how much he sacrifices his happiness for ours? I'm not saying Sakurai is a saint or is perfect, though having restraint regarding Smash complaints (especially the ones that consider anything not Melee/Melee-like to be utter garbage) and direct insults towards Sakurai would be nice.

Anyways, although I do admittingly have my ideas on what would make SSB4 better, I'm not going to post them since Sakurai and the SSB4 staff deal with plenty of complaining as it is. Also, I don't really feel like posting my complaints/criticisms after reading about Sakurai's borderline suicidal thoughts rather recently.

[~Silver]

-Dixie alt for diddy

One of Diddy's alts were of Dixie, if that makes you feel any better...

[metalsnowman3]

SSB4 being like Melee would admittingly cut down on a lot of the online complaining. Though keep in mind, there are a lot of people who play Smash Bros. that don't bother with online forums, communities, and such and a lot of those people don't bother with competitive level play, whether it's learning skills from it or even reading about it. If SSB4 was more like Melee, I could imagine a lot of those people would hate it because of how easy it is to die and how the physics are too fast to be ideal in free for alls (which is what most casuals would be playing). Those people would probably consider Melee physics in SSB4 to be a big downgrade after Brawl made survivability much easier (especially compared to Melee's "falling like a brick" physics and dying from losing track of your character in free for alls being quite common). Just because the complaining online about the game would greatly decrease, that doesn't mean the complaints overall would decrease since you have all the casuals and non-online posting gamers to take into account, whose voices aren't as easily heard since they don't shove it down everyone's throats online.

And you know what's even more sad than Smash 4 potentially being "better than it could've been?" How about Sakurai literally developing the Smash Bros. games at the cost of his health, sanity, social life, and happiness? Have you even seen all the horrible things Sakurai endures and puts himself through to develop these games like working on Smash Bros. games every day of the week and only getting 4 hours of sleep every night? How about him dealing with huge problems with his wrist yet still developing the Smash Bros. games? Or how about his latest article where he even goes thinking borderline suicidal thoughts during a Smash Bros. game's development because that's how hard it is on him and that's how much he sacrifices his happiness for ours? I'm not saying Sakurai is a saint or is perfect, though having restraint regarding Smash complaints (especially the ones that consider anything not Melee/Melee-like to be utter garbage) and direct insults towards Sakurai would be nice.

Anyways, although I do admittingly have my ideas on what would make SSB4 better, I'm not going to post them since Sakurai and the SSB4 staff deal with plenty of complaining as it is. Also, I don't really feel like posting my complaints/criticisms after reading about Sakurai's borderline suicidal thoughts rather recently.

It sucks that he loses health over it. Maybe it would have been better if he didn't make smash 4 if it was that much of a burden. Choosing to share an opinion in SF forums isn't going to affect him at all though.

Also, yeah casuals might not like it and wouldn't voice their opinions on the internet or whatever, but the actual hardcore gamers are what helps push games to the popularity that they have. Games like DOTA and Starcraft are made even bigger from the competitive community and the money involved in it.

From http://www.ssbwiki.com/EVO_2013

Although there was stiff competition from the Skullgirls community, a massive push from the Melee It On Me podcast staff resulted in the Smash community raising nearly $95,000 by the final day of the donation drive.

• Melee was one of three games that broke the EVO record for the most watched fighting game of all time, with roughly 134,000 viewers on the official live-stream.
  • Melee was the first of the three games to break the record, and is currently the second-most watched fighting game of all time.

[Comet]

yeah i mean casuals might not like it at first but really just tweak stuff so they don't mess up as much. kinda like walk off stages you can still die fast if you walk off, so maybe it's not a good idea to do dairs while fast falling off the stage because you will obviously die, like pika's fair in brawl.

oh, and "sakurai loses health". that was for melee since he developed probably the most complicated game for the gamecube in about 13 months. i'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure smash 4 had more time than that and other people who helped him (and effectively re-used brawl engine), so i somehow doubt it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

[Randoman]

oh, and "sakurai loses health". that was for melee since he developed probably the most complicated game for the gamecube in about 13 months. i'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure smash 4 had more time than that and other people who helped him (and effectively re-used brawl engine), so i somehow doubt it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

You'd be very wrong about that.

Sakurai says working on Smash Bros. is 'beyond hard', changes your outlook on life, steals your social life

"Making things like this takes its toll.. Developing Smash Bros. destroys a lot of one's private life. I constantly consider leaving part of the work to someone else, but there's just too much to see and handle. As a result, I work from mornings to late nights, even on weekends and holidays. I hardly have any free time, let alone time to play other games.

Towards the end (of Melee(, there were instances where I would work for 40 hours straight and then take 4 hours off to go home and sleep. I'm not young anymore so I can't push myself like I did then, but I feel that the busyness due to the sheer amount of features [in the games] was much greater this time around. My routine was trying to complete my daily work every day while doing my best to maintain my health day after day. Sometimes I wind up thinking about life itself. Things like 'why is it again that people are born?' The work is large enough and difficult enough that it can affect how you look at life.

I've passed my limit long ago. I wish I had time to think about what I want to do from here, but that doesn't look like it's going to be the case. I believe I should be thankful that I am given such funds to be able to use such iconic characters and content that represent Japanese games with such freedom, and have multitudes of people across the world play with them. I'm not depressed and I continue to remain healthy and positive, but developing Smash Bros. is beyond hard."

Yeah, he says he tries to remain positive at the end of the article, but do you honestly think that's easy/completely doable when going through all the stress and trials of developing the Smash Bros. games in general and going that hardcore into it to get it to players ASAP?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Randoman

[BrightBow]

Not to mention that this time around they had to make two quite different games for two very different systems. And it's not like the 3DS version is simply an inferior port or anything. They put a lot of thought into it and found solutions for problems like characters being difficult to see on the 3DS during zooms and stuff like that.

And then they also had to make those games compatible with each other.

And I would guess that most Nintendo employees didn't have all that much experience working with HD back when development started, so that probably didn't help either.

And they had to be the first who had to include Amiibo support. So that's even more uncharted territory right there.

So it's really impressive how amazing this version of the game turned out in the end.

This topic and most of its complaints are incredibly pretentious and stupid.

Goes to show that Sakurai and Namco can pour their very souls into a game and people can still think they didn't care or hate the effort they put in.

You know, I wish I wouldn't always have to write something like this...

Not that it's much of a problem, mind you. It's just a small annoyance. A tiny imperfection on the design of this amazing piece of software that most certainly took a lot of tears to create.

...to avoid that somebody is trying to twist the tiniest bit of criticism into nothing short of a personal attack of epic proportions and a declaration of hate towards Sakurai and ...wait, "Namco"? So you think Sakurai is the only person from Nintendo's side who actually put any serious effort into this game?

Anyway, acknowledging flaws is not the same thing as hating something and every person who worked on it. Is this really such an easy connection to make that one has to go out of one's way to prevent people from drawing that conclusion so that not all hell will break loose like it happened here? Because at least to me, this feels like a bit of logical leap to make.

Without criticism, praise is meaningless because it's not like you would ever know if you did a good job with something if everyone is obligated to only ever say positive things about your creation.

Edited November 5, 2014 by BrightBow

[eclipse]

"OMG she's beautiful, except for that one tiny spot on her face" means that you're calling attention to the negative points. . .for what? This is the sense I get from some of the complaints, especially the ones regarding skins/clones/"why isn't this a Melee clone?".

[Ragnell]

It sucks that he loses health over it. Maybe it would have been better if he didn't make smash 4 if it was that much of a burden. Choosing to share an opinion in SF forums isn't going to affect him at all though.

Also, yeah casuals might not like it and wouldn't voice their opinions on the internet or whatever, but the actual hardcore gamers are what helps push games to the popularity that they have. Games like DOTA and Starcraft are made even bigger from the competitive community and the money involved in it.

From http://www.ssbwiki.com/EVO_2013

A good competitive scene always helps a game's longevity, but purposely making a game most players dislike to please a very small minority of pros is ludicrous. The vast majority of people who own a SSB game don't even know there is such a thing as pro Smash. Smash is not Starcraft; everyone from little kids to casual teens to nostalgic adults to seasoned gamers play it. The pro scene is not nearly as influential as some pros like to think. My entire friend group plays SSB, but I am the only one who knows anything about competitive play beyond "Fox only, Final Destination". And this is amongst dedicated gamers. My coworkers and relatives who play Smash aren't even familiar with tier lists. One person was convinced Young Link is utterly unfair. I have no problem with trying to please competitive players, since I personally find pro Smash really fun to watch, but I think Sakurai has done a better job than anybody else of finding a way to please casual players while giving pros the tools to keep things competitive.

On topic, one thing that would make SSB4 much better for me is if losing in Classic mode didn't automatically reduce the difficulty by 0.5. That infuriated me in KIU, so I was severely disappointed when it returned in SSB4. You should lose lots of gold, sure, but having to quit and restart completely every time you lose on 9.0 is such a pain. More importantly, I really think there should be online modes which allow custom moves and moves+equipment. Customization was the big new feature of this game, so why on earth is it limited to only a few modes? When designing a competitive game, you need to provide incentive for people to spend time and effort grinding for moves/equipment. When none of that stuff is usable against other people, there's little incentive to get it in the first place. Similarly, Miis should be playable online. To avoid inappropriate content, the game could easily just make opposing Miis look like the generic Mii Fighters when playing With Anyone. As it stands, maining Miis is strongly disincentivized, since you can't play them in online competition.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Ragnell

[szechuan]

Tharja trophy would have made it better, hehe.

AND erasing Dr.Mario from the game. I can't look at him without feeling stupid. It reminds me of all the characters that didnt get to the game and instead he is on the game as a separated ugly Mario clone :c

[PuffPuff]

-Subspace Emmissionary and Stickers.

-Referee Mario

[Sentacotus]

Overall I really like Smash 4 and its probably my favorite to date.

The few things I would change are

1) Make Lucina an alt for Marth: As much as I love the character the moveset is the same minus tipping damage which they should have just kept. You could keep the victory quotes and unique taunts and all and even have a trophy for her but I feel that out of all the "clones" she is the most "cloney"

2) Maybe add a trophy/custom trade feature. Especially with online now I just think it would be a cool feature to have to be able to trade customs and trophies with people in your friends list. Not a fatal flaw or nitpick just something I think would be kinda cool. Oh and Tharja censorship is stupid.

3) Pokemon cast is getting pretty big at this point while some are still vastly overlooked. I'm looking namely at F-zero, Metroid, and Starfox.

Minor nitpicks and if I sat here long enough I could draft a list of things.

Biggest nitpick though is no Shrek

[Knife]

Lucina and Marty play very differently just because of one property. Lucina's Upsmash is much better than Marth's for example. You should be looking at Dark Pit more.

[Comet]

1) Make Lucina an alt for Marth

>make the game better

>take a playable character out of the game