Let's talk about knives.

[Nicolas]

Hi!

I really like knives. I always have at least one with me (I always have one blue Victorinox Classic, which I found in forest this summer :)). I think knives , especially swiss army knives(Victorinox, Wenger) are something which you want to have with you. I almost every day use one of tools from my pocket knife(mostly scissors and of course blade).

Many people don't like that I'm talking everywhere my knives (they don't like even 58mm classic T_T). But having pocket knives doesn't make as much problem as having something bigger. I like balisongs. I really enjoy flipping them (look there if yo don't know what I mean:

) but I can't do this in most places. I really regret that, because it's relaxing (at least for me). People are very scary even if I do simple open one hand.

People are very scared of knives. I don't understand that. They are tool. Not weapon. You might fight with that (and this is effective. Too effective. Don't even try.), but you can kill people with pretty much anything. You can kill easily with scarf. With wire. Even with simple pen.

As long as bunch of people are unhappy because I can resist that. My friends and mates know my little hobby and they accept that. However I'm a bit afraid that some day, in Poland goverment will ban having knives in public places (like in some country in western europe). I think that have no sens at all. Also sometimes I have to left my knives in home when I traveling, because IMO stupid law in some country.

What do you think?

BTW: I want to buy Victorinox Huntsman or Forester soon. They are great!

Edited November 4, 2014 by Nicolas

[Makaze]

There is no need to ban weapons whose primary use is self-defense. Knives are incredibly useful tools. They can used to create all kinds of other tools, too. We would not be able to function in the wild or the kitchen without them.

If you give me one, don't forge to attach a penny to it so I can give it back to you.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Makaze

[eclipse]

Depends on the place.

Some settings aren't appropriate for it (court houses, for example). Others should be heavily monitored (using a knife to dissect something in biology is very different from letting kids carry it around in school). Private property owners should get a say as to whether or not they'll allow knives, and what types. Otherwise, meh.

[Rapier]

Now I imagine that guy on your avatar chasing me with a knive while the Halloween (Film) theme plays in the background. Thank you.

You do bring a point, though, and I argue that this logic can also be applied to guns.

First and foremost, any object can be used to kill, even a pillow, so prohibiting objects merely because they can harm others is a tad extreme and illogical; our best option here is to limit objects which makes it easier to harm or kill, but this is also questionable, as I'll show next.

Second, when you are in an establishment and a maniac with a weapon barges inside while the police is away, you will be grateful that you and every one else has a weapon to defend yourselves. Remember these school shootings in the US? If the citizens were armed with guns and managed to stop the teenagers who just went inside and started killing people, the death count would've been much lower (incidentally, one of these shootings was stopped because a retired police officer who had a gun was walking nearby and managed to shoot said teenager). US states where guns are legal also have a lower crime incidency than other states where guns are illegal. Therefore, the right to bear arms is both desirable and efficient in keeping us safe from those who want to do us harm.

There is no need to ban weapons whose primary use is self-defense.

The primary use varies from person to person, I don't see your point. Of course you won't use a tank for a casual ride or a machine gun to use on self-defense, but lower calliber guns or knives are perfectly acceptable as a self-defense mean. I advocate that if it is as much plausible for you to use a weapon for self-defense as it plausible to use it as a method of aggression, then said weapon should be legalized.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rapier

[eclipse]

This is NOT the gun-control topic. I'll let TC decide whether or not he wants to shift discussion to that.

[Rapier]

This is NOT the gun-control topic. I'll let TC decide whether or not he wants to shift discussion to that.

My point is that my logic applies to both knives and guns, not that I want to hard defend guns, but okay, I'll restrict myself to speak about knives. Which I just did. So far, so good.

[Makaze]

The primary use varies from person to person, I don't see your point. Of course you won't use a tank for a casual ride or a machine gun to use on self-defense, but lower calliber guns or knives are perfectly acceptable as a self-defense mean. I advocate that if it is as much plausible for you to use a weapon for self-defense as it plausible to use it as a method of aggression, then said weapon should be legalized.

Knives are a fairly ineffective offensive weapon. They pose a threat to the user as much as the victim. They require skill to be useful in a fight. They are not a smart tool for anything but self-defense and intimidation, especially in the hands of an amateur. So when I said 'primary use', I actually meant 'practical use'.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Makaze

[EricaofRenais]

I carry two knives with me at all times, unless I have jury duty. I have a small Swiss army knife on my keychain and I carry a bigger knife that I can open one handed. I have no problem with knives but my whole family carries knives and I was taught at a young age how to handle them and had my first pocket knife by the age of 8.

[MercyWalk]

There's a tight control on knives here, can't carry one. Although I do keep a Leatherman wave on my bag all the time, I believe you're not allowed to have locked blades on multitools but most cops don't care and let you go if you can provide a bullshit reason to be holding a multitool.

[Shin]

I don't carry a knife on my person and see no reason to do so. The last thing I want to do is give someone an extra weapon to use against me and I personally have no interest in using one outside of a hospital setting.

[Wen Yang]

Where I live you'd see people walking around with a parang or golok (think slightly smaller machetes) in public and nobody would even bat an eye at it, since it's still used for trimming trees around here.

[Nicolas]

Knives are a fairly ineffective offensive weapon. They pose a threat to the user as much as the victim. They require skill to be useful in a fight. They are not a smart tool for anything but self-defense and intimidation, especially in the hands of an amateur. So when I said 'primary use', I actually meant 'practical use'.

You can't be more wrong.

Teacher who teaches fight with knife for 20 years told me that if you would use knife to self-defense your enemy will probably die. They are easy to hide (for example: you can wear neck knife under shirt) and incredibly deadly even if you are randomly stabbing guy. There's low chance to survive 1 hit in lung. If you have time to strike three times (you need to do that like ~5 sec.) he is basically dead.

However I never though about using knife for self-defense. Maybe that's because I have never have to use knife to run away? They are just tools for me (swiss pocket knives) or source of fun (balisongs). I don't want to use them for self-defense.

[Makaze]

You can't be more wrong.

Teacher who teaches fight with knife for 20 years told me that if you would use knife to self-defense your enemy will probably die. They are easy to hide (for example: you can wear neck knife under shirt) and incredibly deadly even if you are randomly stabbing guy. There's low chance to survive 1 hit in lung. If you have time to strike three times (you need to do that like ~5 sec.) he is basically dead.

Compared to other weapons, however, knives are a danger to both parties. It's a risky weapon to use compared to just about anything else. Except maybe an ax? That's what I was saying. Knives can be used for self-defense, and they are good for that because of how close-range they are. But if you're going to try and be an aggressor, you are better off not getting so close to your target.

[Nicolas]

Compared to other weapons, however, knives are a danger to both parties. It's a risky weapon to use compared to just about anything else. Except maybe an ax? That's what I was saying. Knives can be used for self-defense, and they are good for that because of how close-range they are. But if you're going to try and be an aggressor, you are better off not getting so close to your target.

If you want to kill a guy with knife it's not so hard: get close to him (not so hard, because knife is easy to hide) and stab him in liver. This guy won't have too much time to react. That's also not so dangerous for you because he must keep had with knife away from him, so he must be stronger, quick enough to catch your hand when you try to hit him. How even he could damage an opponent with his knife?

[Makaze]

If you want to kill a guy with knife it's not so hard: get close to him (not so hard, because knife is easy to hide) and stab him in liver. This guy won't have too much time to react. That's also not so dangerous for you because he must keep had with knife away from him, so he must be stronger, quick enough to catch your hand when you try to hit him. How even he could damage an opponent with his knife?

Your language is a little hard to decipher, but let me put it this way: I would not attempt to attack someone with a knife if I had any other options (besides hand-to-hand which is obviously worse). It puts me at too much risk. I may be able to kill them, but there is no guarantee that I would come out unscathed.

[Rehab]

I don't yet have a particularly strong opinion on whether knives are better off banned, and have little against knife enthusiasts, but I think it seems a little silly to say that you sorta resent how scared of them some people seem and how restricted they are at times, and to then in the same topic say that they're incredible, lethal offensive weapons.

[Nicolas]

I don't yet have a particularly strong opinion on whether knives are better off banned, and have little against knife enthusiasts, but I think it seems a little silly to say that you sorta resent how scared of them some people seem and how restricted they are at times, and to then in the same topic say that they're incredible, lethal offensive weapons.

Sorry man, but if you think that my posts are silly then you don't understand what's going on at all.

Do people fear razor blades? They don't but razor blades are as deadly as knives. Are razor bladea banned in some countries? I don't think so. And both razor blades and knives (no matter it's pocket knife, balisong, folder or fixed knife) have uses that aren't killing people.

And even if knives would be banned: so what? I take neck knife under my shirt. Who knows that I have it? Me and my victim.

And I'm talking about how lethal knives are because some people don't realize that. Even if you don't want to kill someone (you are defending yourself) you can kill by accident. I don't want to kill other people even in self-defense. In some countries killing in self-defense might be consider by law as bad as just assassination. So I think that's important to know how much damage blade can deal.

[Nicolas]

Also I whish that people who voted for second option would say which type of knife should be banned and why.

[Esau of Isaac]

Your language is a little hard to decipher, but let me put it this way: I would not attempt to attack someone with a knife if I had any other options (besides hand-to-hand which is obviously worse). It puts me at too much risk. I may be able to kill them, but there is no guarantee that I would come out unscathed.

No, not even in the slightest. Life is nothing like the movies, and there are no effective defensive techniques to fight a knife-wielding opponent, even if you're aware you're going to be attacked. The only person who is both trying to stab someone and a harm to themselves is someone who is not intent on hurting the other party. You're even more wrong when you're saying that being closer is to the detriment of the knife-wielder, since the majority of stabbings happen as surprise attacks to an unarmed party. The last place a guy with a knife wants to be is far away from their victim... Knife-wielders don't like line up with their opponent and bow in clear view, they walk close, pull their knife, grab the guy, and shank him.

Knives are terrific offensive weapons, in any event. They are light, they are concealable, they are cheap, and they are easily lethal.

Edit: Also how the hell is an ax a risky weapon? They've been an effective weapon in combat for several millenia.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Esau of Isaac

[Makaze]

No, not even in the slightest. Life is nothing like the movies, and there are no effective defensive techniques to fight a knife-wielding opponent, even if you're aware you're going to be attacked. The only person who is both trying to stab someone and a harm to themselves is someone who is not intent on hurting the other party. You're even more wrong when you're saying that being closer is to the detriment of the knife-wielder, since the majority of stabbings happen as surprise attacks to an unarmed party. The last place a guy with a knife wants to be is far away from their victim... Knife-wielders don't like line up with their opponent and bow in clear view, they walk close, pull their knife, grab the guy, and shank him.

Knives are terrific offensive weapons, in any event. They are light, they are concealable, they are cheap, and they are easily lethal.

Edit: Also how the hell is an ax a risky weapon? They've been an effective weapon in combat for several millenia.

Sorry for the misunderstanding... I was saying that knives require close combat, and close combat is more dangerous for the user than ranged combat in almost all cases.

An ax, both as a weapon and a tool, is the cause of a lot of accidents.

Am I overestimating the skill involved or something?

[Esau of Isaac]

I just don't understand why close combat is any more dangerous than ranged combat with respect to the topic here. In what way are you differentiating lethality or danger to oneself? It's really very easy to stab someone with a knife, if they were any real danger to the attacker then people never would have used them in the first place. it's kind of like saying you can hurt yourself when trying to punch someone. You certainly can, I'd agree, but that's not something you should bank on happening. I mean, if someone were about to shank you in a prison cell would you feel any comfort that they could possibly hurt themselves? I wouldn't.

Can you explain more about what you mean with axes? If you were specifically talking about only felling axes, you could have a point. Like hurting yourself when chopping wood or something. But not with genuine weapon pieces. You'd be as much a danger to yourself swinging a battle ax at someone as with any sword, potentially less so. They were not large and unwieldy weapons in reality.

[Makaze]

I just don't understand why close combat is any more dangerous than ranged combat with respect to the topic here. In what way are you differentiating lethality or danger to oneself? It's really very easy to stab someone with a knife, if they were any real danger to the attacker then people never would have used them in the first place. it's kind of like saying you can hurt yourself when trying to punch someone. You certainly can, I'd agree, but that's not something you should bank on happening. I mean, if someone were about to shank you in a prison cell would you feel any comfort that they could possibly hurt themselves? I wouldn't.

Can you explain more about what you mean with axes? If you were specifically talking about only felling axes, you could have a point. Like hurting yourself when chopping wood or something. But not with genuine weapon pieces. You'd be as much a danger to yourself swinging a battle ax at someone as with any sword, potentially less so. They were not large and unwieldy weapons in reality.

I actually was likening it to the danger in hurting yourself by punching someone. For example, if you do not have the proper stance, do not make the proper fist, and so on, you can end up in several bad ways. Way I see it, there is some skill involved in handling a knife safely similar to how martial arts keep you from hurting yourself in a fight as much as helping you hurt your opponent. Granted knives are generally easier to use than your body. Still, I'd rather have training before using one in a real fight, if I have a choice.

Felling axes are what I was thinking of when I said it.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Makaze

[euklyd]

I feel like as far as carrying around knives it's kind of irresponsible to carry around a lethal weapon "for fun" (looking at you, most carriers of butterfly knives)

if you're carrying around a knife as a tool or even for self defense that's like, understandable and you can justify it pretty easily

carrying around a knife because you want to show off all the fancy tricks you can do with it is kind of less so

it's kind of like saying you can hurt yourself when trying to punch someone. You certainly can, I'd agree, but that's not something you should bank on happening.

I actually was likening it to the danger in hurting yourself by punching someone. For example, if you do not have the proper stance, do not make the proper fist, and so on, you can end up in several bad ways. Way I see it, there is some skill involved in handling a knife safely similar to how martial arts keep you from hurting yourself in a fight as much as helping you hurt your opponent. Granted knives are generally easier to use than your body. Still, I'd rather have training before using one in a real fight, if I have a choice.

Felling axes are what I was thinking of when I said it.

the risk with punching someone is not that you can hurt yourself, but that you are putting yourself in a position where they can hurt you if they have a chance to retaliate

if you attempt to kill a guy with your knife and you fuck up you are in significantly more personal danger than if your bullet that you fired from 20 feet away misses them

EDIT: (I mean yes there's a chance of you hurting yourself as well I don't mean to say that there isn't)

if I needed to kill someone and I had a choice between "kill someone from 20 feet away" vs "kill someone from a distance where if I fuck up they can counterattack" I'd generally go with choice #1, assuming there are no other considerations

Edited November 6, 2014 by Euklyd

[Esau of Isaac]

I actually was likening it to the danger in hurting yourself by punching someone. For example, if you do not have the proper stance, do not make the proper fist, and so on, you can end up in several bad ways.

You can. But probably won't. People are naturally able to get the job done well enough. Clumsy haymakers and hammerfists can very easily kill a person without much danger to the person performing them. We'd have gone extinct if combat was of genuine relevant danger to the attacker.

Way I see it, there is some skill involved in handling a knife safely similar to how martial arts keep you from hurting yourself in a fight as much as helping you hurt your opponent. Granted knives are generally easier to use than your body. Still, I'd rather have training before using one in a real fight, if I have a choice.

Okay, I guess, in the same sense it would be beneficial to have training before using a gun in a fight. Knives are generally intuitive weapons. I mean, I guess there are a few pointers to keep in mind if you were fighting with a knife, but they are all things someone would do out of common sense, and even if not obeying them would still be a far greater danger to their opponent than themselves.

How exactly would someone end up cutting themselves without proper training? The only way I can see it being of any danger to the wielder is if they wielded it like a horror-movie villain.

Felling axes are what I was thinking of when I said it.

Oh. Well you would never use a felling axe in combat in the first place. I still wouldn't say it's of much harm to you, but given it's not made for use in battle it would certainly be more likely.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Esau of Isaac

[Snowy_One]

When it comes to axes it's important to understand that there is a HUGE difference between how well a weapon is used by a peasant and how well it is used by a trained warrior as well as the difference between single and group combat AND the many various situations that come up. While an axe can pack a lot of power it's relatively slow, lacking in range, cannot be effectively wielded in formation (not without heavy training at least) and its main 'edge' is the sheer volume of force it can deliver. Of all the FE weapon archtypes, in actual combat, the axe would be the worst with the sword and bow being the best.

Course, 'worst' doesn't mean too much when there are a whole variety of factors in play. A spear is far more effective in the hands of a peasant than a sword and a good bow isn't worth too much outside a formation unless you have a very well-trained bowman. Not to mention that an individual weapon can outright excel while the rest in its class falter or simply can't live up to the name (like the Halberd. One of the most effective medivial weapons due to it combining a spear, axe, and hook. It was one of the best weapons of the time but took a relatively large amount of training to use.)

Anyways, on-topic. I think it's important to remember that many knives have different uses, but honestly, with something like this it's either going to be a total lock-down or let-up. IMO it's probably better to simply let it go as the sheer volume of innocents who will be 'caught' doing innocent or normal things with a knife far exceeds the number of people who do pose a legit threat. People who actually intend to hurt others with a knife are either psychotic to the point of easily finding them, or more than capable of hiding it inside a coat sleeve IMO.