Chiki Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Volug used to be considered pretty good in the past, but now his flaws are really apparent: 1. No 2-range 2. Needs to use Olivi Grass every player phase 3. Useless for the first 2-3 player phases 4. Poor offense without S strike Has your opinion changed in the past couple years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 1. That was always considered and the reason he wasn't even higher. 2. This only applies to part 3, and in 2 of those maps he's only facing enemy laguz anyway, so player phase isn't as important. (part 4 also, but his contributions there weren't a heavy part of his rankings in the first place) 3. Again, part 3 only. 4. S Strike is reasonably acquirable by the time he actually needs it. You basically completely ignored part 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I was always under the impression that a lot of his worth came from Part 1. Part 3 is when he starts to slow down but he's valuable with a more defensive playstyle, and his supports tend to prop him up unless you're bumrushing with Jill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 it depends on your definition of "good;" he's nowhere near as good as titania or even sothe anymore. he'd probably rank closer to some of the better GMs who are shoo-ins as combat units in part 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xator Nova Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 where would you rank him on an hypothetical tier list? He is definitely endgame viable, but not optimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) He's much more useful in part 3 than in part 1. In part 1 I only use him to weak the enemies to gain strike level. However he can double some enemies. At least a B-support in earth and his high HP make him a good wall (fire mages excepted). On hard mode in part 3 he's good all the way for these reasons: he can have +45 evasion thanks earth affinity in 3-6 he will be probably the fastest unit of your team with his 26 AS. So he can double all the laguz in 3-6. he can survive two hits of tigers (only a very good Jill with a seraph robe could do it too) with a S strike rank he can kill all the cats instantly However I agree with the second point. The main problem of Volug is that the Dawn Brigade doesn't have access to a laguz stone. You only can get an olivi grass in 3-6 and 3-13 by killing (and I believe you can buy an olivi grass in the base before 1-8). Edited November 24, 2014 by The Taninator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBrand Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 He definitely recommend in part 1. By part 3 he's less useful since you should have at least 1 promoted Dawn Brigade unit. He can still be a crunch character though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 He's not as good as he once was certainly. But he still has a decently sized period of usefulness which is more than a lot of the dorks in the cast can say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 "Volug used to be considered pretty good in the past, but now his flaws are really apparent" You make it sound as if Volug's flaws were never considered before in his ranking. All you did was list those without considering what made him super good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 "Volug used to be considered pretty good in the past, but now his flaws are really apparent" You make it sound as if Volug's flaws were never considered before in his ranking. All you did was list those without considering what made him super good. Yep, pretty much. Anyone who can play LTC well knows just how overrated Volug is (and how underrated Jill is). So, what does make him super good now, with our new and improved strategies? Nothing. He has a few uses in other chapters: 1. Needed for 4-turn of 1-7 (carry people) 2. Needed for 4-turn of 1-8 (rout) 3. Needed for 5-turn of 1-E (carry people) His Part 3 performance is just trash compared to Jill's, so there's nothing that makes him super good anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintessence Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Just wanted to point out that Volug isn't needed for 2) and 3) (or needed is not the best word for it). Other promoted units can help with the 1-8 4 turn clear; and Pass Savior Sothe grants a 5 turn clear on 1-E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 wait wait wait wait wait is LTC how we judge units now or what idgi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 (edited) Just wanted to point out that Volug isn't needed for 2) and 3) (or needed is not the best word for it). Other promoted units can help with the 1-8 4 turn clear; and Pass Savior Sothe grants a 5 turn clear on 1-E. Lol, he's even worse than I imagined. >_> In that case, I'd put him in low tier probably, if I made a tier list. Volug's position in Red Fox's tier list (top tier) is laughable. Edited November 26, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Yep, pretty much. Anyone who can play LTC well knows just how overrated Volug is (and how underrated Jill is). volug's flaws were considered before in his ranking. his flaws didn't really start to matter until the pace increased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 In that case, I'd put him in low tier probably, if I made a tier list. Volug's position in Red Fox's tier list (top tier) is laughable.i wasnt aware rex fox had an LTC tier list in fact aren't LTC tier lists inherently useless because you rarely have multiple strategies in the absolute lowest turn count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 i wasnt aware rex fox had an LTC tier list in fact aren't LTC tier lists inherently useless because you rarely have multiple strategies in the absolute lowest turn count? It's not clear what kind of tier list Red Fox has at all, because efficiency is such a vague thing. But nowadays, efficiency is accepted to be pretty strict (in terms of speed) by most people, so Red Fox's tier list has to adapt to that. That doesn't mean you can't compare the usefulness of units to each other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Then you wouldnt have a tier list you'd have a list of motions you go through Furthermore, efficiency isnt accepted to be that way so...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) Then you wouldnt have a tier list you'd have a list of motions you go through Furthermore, efficiency isnt accepted to be that way so...... Ok, this isn't that hard to understand. The list of motions may differ depending on which units you choose to use. For example, compare an LTC list of motions in which Jill is banned and compare an LTC list of motions in which Volug is banned. Which LTC list of motions is better (lower number of turns and reliable)? The one with Jill. So, rank Jill higher on the tier list. It's as simple as that. And by comparing all these playthroughs to each other we can rank all units depending on how much they contribute overall to shaving turns and reliability. Edited November 27, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 But wouldn't a playthrough with Volug have quite a few where there are good LTC lists? lol Besides we can't compare units in a vacuum like that which makes tier lists dumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) But wouldn't a playthrough with Volug have quite a few where there are good LTC lists? lol Besides we can't compare units in a vacuum like that which makes tier lists dumb What? I'm confused by what the denotation of this sentence is. But if you mean what I think you mean, if you've been paying attention to anything that's been said in the thread, you'd realize that Volug barely contributes anything to LTC runs. It's not just compared in a vacuum. You can also compare contexts in which Jill and Nolan are both absent, for example, and if Nolan's absence is significantly detrimental (more so than just a playthrough without Nolan) then he gets points for working well together with Jill. It's an incredibly complicated business, yes, but that's what tier lists are in the end. Edited November 27, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 You've shown that he's not as good as Jill... nothing else but saying "volug is trash and doesnt help with shit" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) Yep, pretty much. Anyone who can play LTC well knows just how overrated Volug is (and how underrated Jill is). So, what does make him super good now, with our new and improved strategies? Nothing. He has a few uses in other chapters: 1. Needed for 4-turn of 1-7 (carry people) 2. Needed for 4-turn of 1-8 (rout) 3. Needed for 5-turn of 1-E (carry people) Actually, I hate to say it, but Volug didn't contribute to clearing 1-7 & 1-E faster. In 1-8, he may also be rather optional, since Nailah (with Rafiel's aid) can take out the LHS. ): I still think he's pretty good, just not excellent. wait wait wait wait wait is LTC how we judge units now or what idgi "idgi"? Anyway, I agree with the sentiment. An LTC tier list would be pretty boring and unfair for most of the cast. Although, if the point were to just aid a person who happened to come across an LTC playthrough, it would serve well to guide them through said list. Edited November 27, 2014 by Juliet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 idgi = I don't get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 We're moving Volug to Low because Jill is being underrated? I hope I don't have to explain what's wrong with that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I agree Volug is worse than most of the cast because Jill is the best unit in the game for LTCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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