Is Volug still good?

[Junkhead]

idgi = I don't get it

Yeah, well, what do you think of the rest of the post? ):

[Lord Raven]

Clearly I agree with it I was just sarcastically denouncing the idea of an LTC tier list

[Chiki]

We're moving Volug to Low because Jill is being underrated? I hope I don't have to explain what's wrong with that one.

I agree Volug is worse than most of the cast because Jill is the best unit in the game for LTCs.

You've shown that he's not as good as Jill... nothing else but saying "volug is trash and doesnt help with shit"

Come on guys, I know you're smarter than this. If anyone honestly thinks that I'm arguing that Volug is low tier because Jill outclasses him they're dumber than a brick.

Volug is low tier because he's trash who has almost no contributions to LTC runs:

Volug used to be considered pretty good in the past, but now his flaws are really apparent:

1. No 2-range

2. Needs to use Olivi Grass every player phase

3. Useless for the first 2-3 player phases

4. Poor offense without S strike

Has your opinion changed in the past couple years?

Yep, pretty much. Anyone who can play LTC well knows just how overrated Volug is (and how underrated Jill is).

So, what does make him super good now, with our new and improved strategies? Nothing. He has a few uses in other chapters:

1. Needed for 4-turn of 1-7 (carry people)

2. Needed for 4-turn of 1-8 (rout)

3. Needed for 5-turn of 1-E (carry people)

His Part 3 performance is just trash compared to Jill's, so there's nothing that makes him super good anymore.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Chiki

[Lord Raven]

Come on guys, I know you're smarter than this. If anyone honestly thinks that I'm arguing that Volug is low tier because Jill outclasses him they're dumber than a brick.

Volug is low tier because he's trash who has almost no contributions to LTC runs:

No you're the dumb one because you're saying he's trash because he effectively doesn't contribute as much as other people who will cause the lowest TCs in an LTC run due to use. At any rate, a tier list isn't LTC anyway so...

[Junkhead]

While I do aknowledge he doesn't contribute to shaving turns, that doesn't mean he's trash. Trash is a character who has 4 Mov, awful offense, can barely hit, gets doubled AND 1RKO'd by everyone and their mother and lack any other utilty to make up for it. Unless your idea of "trash" is simply "doesn't shave turns", then, an LTC tier list by that criteria would look like this:

Top tier

Jill

Haar

Sothe

Tiamat

Ike

Everyone else, who don't shave turns

Everyone else

EDIT: Forgot Sothe

Edited November 28, 2014 by Juliet

[Chiki]

No you're the dumb one because you're saying he's trash because he effectively doesn't contribute as much as other people who will cause the lowest TCs in an LTC run due to use. At any rate, a tier list isn't LTC anyway so...

Ok. So?

[Lord Raven]

second part is more important

first part is important because you're basically saying that he's not as good as sothe/nailah/jill = low tier trash

you said yourself that when comparing two characters if one character saves more turns than the other in a hypothetical LTC playthrough then the character saving you turns in more playthroughs will be ranked higher

fact is that volug definitely "saves more turns" than most of the cast in more playthroughs therefore he is obviously to be relegated above low tier. otherwise, you're basically judging two characters on a singular playthrough which is also stupid to make a tier list out of.

[dondon151]

i'm not sure if volug would belong in low tier because there are so many other units that either don't contribute to LTCs or contribute in the sense that you literally have no one else to use.

[Chiki]

second part is more important

first part is important because you're basically saying that he's not as good as sothe/nailah/jill = low tier trash

you said yourself that when comparing two characters if one character saves more turns than the other in a hypothetical LTC playthrough then the character saving you turns in more playthroughs will be ranked higher

fact is that volug definitely "saves more turns" than most of the cast in more playthroughs therefore he is obviously to be relegated above low tier. otherwise, you're basically judging two characters on a singular playthrough which is also stupid to make a tier list out of.

Ok, so unlike Black Frost and Mekkah, I guess you really did misunderstand my argument. LOL Go back and read the posts I quoted.

i'm not sure if volug would belong in low tier because there are so many other units that either don't contribute to LTCs or contribute in the sense that you literally have no one else to use.

I don't think that's true. Due to how FE10 is set up (you have a different group of units available to use from chapter to chapter) most units end up contributing to LTC clears. For example, you need to use Kieran/Geoffrey/Makalov/Danved etc. in that big Part 2 chapter. You need to use all your DB members early on in Part 1. Even units like Lucia and Tanith can have surprising uses in Part 4. Even ILYANA has more use in Part 1 than Volug.

Even if Volug isn't low tier, I'd certainly put him below Lucia, Tanith and some other often underrated units.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Chiki

[dondon151]

I don't think that's true. Due to how FE10 is set up (you have a different group of units available to use from chapter to chapter) most units end up contributing to LTC clears. For example, you need to use Kieran/Geoffrey/Makalov/Danved etc. in that big Part 2 chapter. You need to use all your DB members early on in Part 1. Even units like Lucia and Tanith can have surprising uses in Part 4. Even ILYANA has more use in Part 1 than Volug.

you need to read what i said a bit closer, i think.

[Lord Raven]

Ok, so unlike Black Frost and Mekkah, I guess you really did misunderstand my argument. LOL Go back and read the posts I quoted.

Then your argument wasn't worded clearly because that's what I took out of it. Don't LOL me if you can't word your argument properly!

You are saying to compare Volug to another character you would use to complete an LTC run? Or are you saying that you should compare the motions requiring Volug in an LTC run to to other characters? Either way, it sounds like you just want to judge things on a singular playthrough, which makes no sense in a tier list.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

you need to read what i said a bit closer, i think.

That's why I didn't bring up Nephenee. "Literally have no one else to use" is a very strong thing to say. You could just clear 2-3 with just Geoffrey, or just Kieran if you wanted to, but the others all help too. You could even clear Part 1 with just Edward if you really wanted to, and Micaiah, Nolan and Ilyana wouldn't be very useful in that case. But they help a lot if you want to shave turns.

Then your argument wasn't worded clearly because that's what I took out of it. Don't LOL me if you can't word your argument properly!

You are saying to compare Volug to another character you would use to complete an LTC run? Or are you saying that you should compare the motions requiring Volug in an LTC run to to other characters? Either way, it sounds like you just want to judge things on a singular playthrough, which makes no sense in a tier list.

It was worded perfectly clearly. I brought up a whole list of reasons why Volug was overrated. Don't get angry if you can't read.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Chiki

[dondon151]

That's why I didn't bring up Nephenee. "Literally have no one else to use" is a very strong thing to say. You could just clear 2-3 with just Geoffrey, or just Kieran if you wanted to, but the others all help too. You could even clear Part 1 with just Edward if you really wanted to, and Micaiah, Nolan and Ilyana wouldn't be very useful in that case. But they help a lot if you want to shave turns.

in 2-3 you don't have alternate deployment options. i'm not sure what makes nephenee different from geoffrey; you can use brom instead of nephenee just as you can use kieran instead of geoffrey.

[Chiki]

in 2-3 you don't have alternate deployment options. i'm not sure what makes nephenee different from geoffrey; you can use brom instead of nephenee just as you can use kieran instead of geoffrey.

You still aren't actually forced to use anyone you don't want to, you could have them sit in a cornner. And I don't know if Brom can actually beat 2-1 (in HM) alone reliably unlike Nephenee.

[Lord Raven]

It was worded perfectly clearly. I brought up a whole list of reasons why Volug was overrated. Don't get angry if you can't read.

afaik i'm literate with a BS degree so I am fairly sure I can read

it merely means that you didn't explain yourself

[LeaderR Elliot]

Wasn't volug in the top 30 units of all time?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29384&p=1782387

Made by mekkah in 2011. Still a good read today.

Also poll needs to a be public poll

Edited November 29, 2014 by LeaderR Elliot

[BBM]

I don't really think it makes sense for an efficiency tier list to say that Volug is worse than Ilyana because he saves no turns despite being a generally capable unit (which he is- talking about how he is worse than one of the best units in the game does not prove otherwise), while Ilyana helps save one turn in one place or whatever and then is benched forever.

It would be like saying Eirika is better than Ephraim because she crits that one dude in Prologue and saves a turn and Ephraim never saves a turn, which I think is kind of dumb.

@elliot- tbf a lot of viewpoints have changed over the last three years

Edited November 29, 2014 by BBM

[Baldrick]

But if you don't measure efficiency in turns, what do you measure it in? Hair colour? lol

[Chiki]

But if you don't measure efficiency in turns, what do you measure it in? Hair colour? lol

Boobs

[Lord Raven]

But if you don't measure efficiency in turns, what do you measure it in? Hair colour? lol

Efficiency is not necessarily about minimizing turns. It's about finishing the game with very little risk but running at a brisk pace (not lightning but brisk).

[Mekkah]

If you only want to measure by LTC and only by number of turns saved, then yes, Volug is probably bad. Unfortunately, most people want to measure using more than that, since:

1. There's just not much to discuss if we are to rank units through one specific playthrough

2. Most people do not play LTC to begin with

3. LTC playthroughs are often RNG dependent. Think FE8 where your Warper needs to gain Mag every level-up. There's probably some equivalent in this game (I'm not familiar with FE10 LTC) such as Nephenee in 2-1 or Haar/Jill needing good level-ups.

The more you allow for "efficiency" rather than "LTC", the better Volug becomes, as he adds reliability. He's generally 100% accurate and he'll always be decent for 3-6 and 3-13. I think dondon's rating of roughly as good as one of the better GMs is fine.

[Baldrick]

Efficiency is not necessarily about minimizing turns. It's about finishing the game with very little risk but running at a brisk pace (not lightning but brisk).

Efficiency is virtually always about optimisation of turncount, though. Outside of ranked runs, you rarely see efficiency by another metric. It's just a reduction of the weighting given to turns relative to LTC.

[Snowy_One]

Efficiency is virtually always about optimisation of turncount, though. Outside of ranked runs, you rarely see efficiency by another metric. It's just a reduction of the weighting given to turns relative to LTC.

This is why it sucks as a metric. A lot of people think that lower turn counts = better unit, but that simply isn't true. You could get a godly unit with perfect stats across the board and he wouldn't be as useful as a Peggy because the peggy can fly/rescue-drop. When you focus on turn-counts you remove everything about a character that isn't turncount related. Is Vantage better than Adept? Who cares? Unless one of them helps reliably cut down on turns they're both worthless.

[Irysa]

If said godly unit existed then what's stopping them from being used WITH the peg who's rescue dropping? The metric is not flawless, but I don't see how that's a counterexample. If the Peg can kill the neccessary targets themselves without said unit, or if said unit has low movement, or some other negative factors then obviously the weighting changes. However, I do think it would be helpful if distinctions were made with regards to the amount of investment one has to put into particular units to utilise them effectively though (if they need statboosters or a lot of exp compared to other units who don't), and units who rely on others to shine (utility units OR units that rely on utility units)

Edited November 29, 2014 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

Volug is 'good' but not great. He's probably closer to being near the bottom of High tier than anywhere near Top tier.