next version of FE7 HHM 0% growths: control enemy glitch?

[dondon151]

yes, this is going to be a thing after FE6 HM 0% growths...

the unspoken standard for LTC runs in this community is without the CEG. i want to know if the community is more interested in a standard LTC or an LTC with the CEG.

the advantages are:

- saves turns in some FoW maps

- saves turns in maps where i use a mine

- i might get vaida's spear

the disadvantages are:

- less representative of a normal playthrough than normal LTC

- more abusive of game mechanics than RNG abuse

if it turns out the CEG is the popular choice, i'd have to go back and re-do the run starting from chapter 19.

EDIT: actually, i probably won't try to 3-turn chapter 19 because it likely means that raven won't be promoted for dragon's gate and kent/fiora won't be promoted for new resolve, which are absolutely necessary benchmarks. so the first CEG chapter will probably be chapter 23 in that case.

Edited January 5, 2015 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

I vote no on the control enemy glitch, because I guess I don't find LTCing with glitches that interesting!

[Sweet_Basil]

I voted no on the glitch, but I'll watch anyway. This will be interesting.

[Florete]

Yes. If it requires no external devices, it's legit. Speedrunners use glitches, and this is pretty similar, so I see little reason not to use it unless it's your own* personal preference not to.

*And by this, I refer only to dondon151's personal preference.

[Irysa]

Eh, FE7 0% is already not terribly representative of typical strategies anyway a lot of the time since so much rigging goes on with Marcus. If you're interested in doing it, go for it. I agree with Fox that it should be at your own discretion, much like no death runs and the like. Nobody wants to LTC FE7 with CR as it stands anyway.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Irysa

[bookofholsety]

i think i'll vote yes. in addition to glitches traditionally being fair game in other speedrun communities, imo the tight limit on mine availability and the relatively small number of fow maps keep the glitch from being as centralising a factor as some of the more famous glitches abused in the speedrun context. not to mention, i'm also curious to see just how much utility you can wring out of every use of the glitch

[dondon151]

if i can find a way to 3-turn living legend without the CEG, i'm pretty sure it's actually not going to end up saving any turns on the FoW maps... i don't think 2-turning is possible on 0% growths because there's no way to ORKO the cavaliers and nomads at the top of the map. the 700 EXP requirement is also probably not feasible.

does anyone know if the CEG can be induced on any PWASE, or if it only works on mine and torch staff PWASE?

[General Horace]

echoing what raven said, there's even more opportunity to do this in fe7 than other games because of mines as well (i think you get three on HM)

like if you used the mine glitch and just made all the cog staff users dump their staves or something I'd personally find it to be pretty lame. I know it's 'technically' not using anything that wasn't in the game initially, but i'm also of the opinion that speedruns that use glitches (which is sadly most of them now) are boring, so it might just be my own opinion.

when it comes down to it, just do what you want though, you're the one playing!

i don't think getting vaida's spear is worth it if you do end up doing it though.

Edited December 5, 2014 by General Horace

[Klokinator]

If you're going to rng abuse, which is a complete abuse of the system, then you might as well CEG too.

[dondon151]

i don't think getting vaida's spear is worth it if you do end up doing it though.

i think vaida's spear might let me 2-turn final part 1, but it shouldn't make a difference otherwise. it might make cog easier, but cog is the premier candidate for use of the CEG anyway. and i totally agree with you that CEG on cog is way lamer than even something like rigging an 80 hit sleep staff dodge.

If you're going to rng abuse, which is a complete abuse of the system, then you might as well CEG too.

so in my mind there are differences between RNG abuse and CEG, one of which is that RNG abuse is actually required if you wanted any variation in outcome at all. RNG abuse is sort of like resetting until you get lucky, minus the resetting.

[Elieson]

Yes. If it requires no external devices, it's legit. Speedrunners use glitches, and this is pretty similar, so I see little reason not to use it unless it's your own* personal preference not to.

*And by this, I refer only to dondon151's personal preference.

I support the use of CEG/MG/whatever you prefer to call it. If you can buy the game and the glitch is built into the game, it's worth taking advantage of.

Kind of like the CEG in Shining Force 2 (though that's more of a control code than a glitch). but it's right there for the player to use.

i think vaida's spear might let me 2-turn final part 1, but it shouldn't make a difference otherwise. it might make cog easier, but cog is the premier candidate for use of the CEG anyway. and i totally agree with you that CEG on cog is way lamer than even something like rigging an 80 hit sleep staff dodge.

so in my mind there are differences between RNG abuse and CEG, one of which is that RNG abuse is actually required if you wanted any variation in outcome at all. RNG abuse is sort of like resetting until you get lucky, minus the resetting.

Vaida's Spear + Hammerne could make a serious difference, even in the idea that it's huge defensive bonuses allow for units like Heath to charge Sonia with less prepwork.

Would you be able to net Filla's Might? I don't recall if you did last game but the offensive parameters of Filla's+US would be pretty massive, allowing for new options on Bosskill tactics

Also, considering in your FE6 LTC, you rigged what, a ORKO on the 8x boss with Rutger that tallied out to something like a .25% chance of natural occurence....it's possible to do without "cheating", so it's not really cheating I guess.

---

Alternatively, I'd like to see you maximize a LTC run without worrying about recruiting everybody everywhere, and keeping everyone alive. I'm sure that there's some strategic application of letting a unit that carries another unit die in order to shave a turn somewhere

[dondon151]

Vaida's Spear + Hammerne could make a serious difference, even in the idea that it's huge defensive bonuses allow for units like Heath to charge Sonia with less prepwork.

i think hammerne is still better used on warp and rescue (i'm going to need a lot of those for chapter 32), and i already have a 4-turn planned for chapter 28x that doesn't require vaida's spear. it's not going to let me 3-turn the chapter anyway because pent doesn't have enough staff range.

[Refa]

For me, it's less about the glitch being cheating and more about it being less interesting to watch.

[Achelexus]

I'd like to see the glitch use because it seems to create another layer of depth, the only time I've used it was to get the Uber spear, it would be good to see what sort of creative use of the glitch you'd come up with.

[Elieson]

For me, it's less about the glitch being cheating and more about it being less interesting to watch.

The way I see is; how can Dondon get the most out of the Mine Glitch in terms of LTC. I'm interested to see what he's considered as the "best" place to use it, and why.

[dondon151]

keep in mind that i only get 2 mines because the third one from chapter 17 is impossible to get in an LTC

[chococoke]

I say nah. The pope shouldn't have to resort to in-game glitches to showcase his 0% talents

[Elieson]

keep in mind that i only get 2 mines because the third one from chapter 17 is impossible to get in an LTC

What's your estimated completion TC for Chpater 17?

I wonder if you could rescue/drop the two Loldiers into range for the nomads to shoot (in the range two tiles above Raven's X on the map? I don't have any stats on hand but could they ORKO them? I don't recall the importance of Priscilla and Raven beyond recruiting Lucius in your runs

Edited December 6, 2014 by Sara.

[dondon151]

chapter 17 is 7 turns, which is minimum without kentadin or sainadin, plus it's the earliest that i can get the knight crest since the enemy thief doesn't open its first chest until turn 6 EP. i'm just barely recruiting lucius on turn 7 and there are literally no more enemies left around the NPC soldiers.

[Mekkah]

Voted no because the glitch feels abusive, but will watch and contribute to any run.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Mekkah

[LeaderR Elliot]

Guys the obvious solution is that dondon has to do two runs, one using the glitch and one without. Voted no at first and now I have seen the truth! so go for it!

[Jedi]

I say you go with what you feel you'd like to do dondon, I'm sure it'll be entertaining either way.

You gonna do commentary like FE6? When you finish.

[dondon151]

i added another poll question about chapter 23. i don't know for sure that 3-turning is impossible with 700 EXP (or if it's possible to 3-turn at all in 0%), but it seems implausible given how much i have to rely on promoted units for combat.

Edited December 5, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

im almost sure you can get 700 exp in 3 turns

although I dunno who you need to funnel exp into to promote, but heath seems like a good candidate already and it's pretty easy to get him bosskills. too lazy to watch the old video

but if you deploy like, heath, canas, torchspam, ninian, fiora, rath (you need him to promote right?) + whoever you need to actually kill things i'm sure you'll be able to do it.

Edited December 6, 2014 by General Horace

[Florete]

I have a question for people voting no: are you okay with RNG abuse? If so, why is one okay and the other isn't? Both are abusive and take advantage of the game in ways the player isn't meant to.

For the second poll question, I voted 4-turn because I think it makes a more complete run to go to all possible maps.