next version of FE7 HHM 0% growths: control enemy glitch?

[dondon151]

im almost sure you can get 700 exp in 3 turns

although I dunno who you need to funnel exp into to promote, but heath seems like a good candidate already and it's pretty easy to get him bosskills. too lazy to watch the old video

but if you deploy like, heath, canas, torchspam, ninian, fiora, rath (you need him to promote right?) + whoever you need to actually kill things i'm sure you'll be able to do it.

i don't need to deploy rath because he's already at L10. he got the eubans bosskill in kinship's bond. he still might be the best choice for living legend though...

but you're going to have to help me out on this because i honestly don't see it. marcus can't ORKO any of the nomads or cavaliers and he doesn't even 2HKO one of the cavaliers with a javelin. fiora is totally useless when it comes to combat and torchspam + ninian is like 100 EXP total. i can't imagine how heath can get bosskills without hawkeye's help unless i rig 4% axereaver crits.

[General Horace]

if you have a save you should send it my way if you have one, I have a ch 23 save but units have levelled up and gotten stats

I just assumed you'd deploy fiora for filla's might tbh.

i was gonna say a luna crit + axereaver but druid promo gains are 0 magic so : <<<

Edited December 6, 2014 by General Horace

[Lord Raven]

I have a question for people voting no: are you okay with RNG abuse? If so, why is one okay and the other isn't? Both are abusive and take advantage of the game in ways the player isn't meant to.

I'm not voting against it because it's "abuse" so much as it's "uninteresting."

[LeaderR Elliot]

I have a question for people voting no: are you okay with RNG abuse? If so, why is one okay and the other isn't? Both are abusive and take advantage of the game in ways the player isn't meant to.

dunno, I am ok with RNG abuse for hits, crits, and lv up gains in DS FE (too addictive, wi-fi golden age)

but these glitches let you control the enemies... is cool but not as cool as dondon manipulating AI like a boss. His runs never disappoint tho, I believe he can make it interesting and actually finish this time.

[Florete]

I'm not voting against it because it's "abuse" so much as it's "uninteresting."

How is it uninteresting? I would think finding a good way to utilize it will probably make the run more interesting if anything.

I personally think RNG abuse is much less interesting than using a mine.

[Elieson]

How is it uninteresting? I would think finding a good way to utilize it will probably make the run more interesting if anything.

I personally think RNG abuse is much less interesting than using a mine.

I'm with you here.

He's using two mines. One is likely on a Defend chapter, which spawns reinforcements all day long. How boring is this entire run going to be if we can already assume that only half of one chapter will be touched in any significant way with one of the two mines?

*Edit

I'm trying to think if there's any strategic way to leave an enemy alone around the Hammer squadron and have them charge the NPCs by being lured over by Priscilla or something. Even so, they probably can't do enough damage to a soldier to kill (though again I don't have stats off hand).

How would you be about manipulating dodges with Priscilla while she rushes to Raven? Can you afford the EXP drop from not killing one or two enemies in the map?

Edited December 6, 2014 by Sara.

[chococoke]

Except manipulating enemy misses/player crits is part of the game, granted they certainly get a bit outlandish depending on the manipulation required (though there is no way they could compare to the rigging required for FE6 0% growths.) An enemy simply missing or a player critting is not the same as taking control of the entire enemy side and doing what you will with them

[Elieson]

Except manipulating enemy misses/player crits is part of the game, granted they certainly get a bit outlandish depending on the manipulation required (though there is no way they could compare to the rigging required for FE6 0% growths.) An enemy simply missing or a player critting is not the same as taking control of the entire enemy side and doing what you will with them

My hopes are that under some incredible circumstance, the enemy archer would go after the Loldiers instead of Priscilla, after Raven is recruited. I'd need to see a video of dondon's last playthrough to really judge the ludicrous nature of that though

[Lord Raven]

How is it uninteresting? I would think finding a good way to utilize it will probably make the run more interesting if anything.

I personally think RNG abuse is much less interesting than using a mine.

And I personally don't think the mine is very interesting... it works both ways here, and in my eyes RNG abusing is for a single action or a few sequences of actions whereas a mine glitch affects the entire map

[Florete]

Except manipulating enemy misses/player crits is part of the game

It's all part of the game, though. Anyone can pull these things off.

An enemy simply missing or a player critting is not the same as taking control of the entire enemy side and doing what you will with them

They're both manipulation unintended for normal gameplay. They are fundamentally the same: they allow you to, in a sense, "cheat" the game by abusing its mechanics to create a more desirable outcome.

Besides, I could say this: "Controlling enemies for a turn or two out of more than 100 is not the same as rigging every enemy to miss and every player attack to critical when needed."

Edited December 6, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[chococoke]

It's all part of the game, though. Anyone can pull these things off.

They're both manipulation unintended for normal gameplay. They are fundamentally the same: they allow you to, in a sense, "cheat" the game by abusing its mechanics to create a more desirable outcome.

Besides, I could say this: "Controlling enemies for a turn or two out of more than 100 is not the same as rigging every enemy to miss and every player attack to critical when needed."

Obviously there is a certain level of RNG manipulation that needs to be agreed upon here. Manipulating a boss miss or a crit against that boss is not as extreme as taking control of the entire enemy side, because you're still technically doing what is "allowed" by the game.

[eclipse]

Guys the obvious solution is that dondon has to do two runs, one using the glitch and one without. Voted no at first and now I have seen the truth! so go for it!

This would be my answer.

I'd be interested to see how much the glitch helps, if at all. I don't mind RNG abuse, because of the nature of the GBA RNG.

[Florete]

Obviously there is a certain level of RNG manipulation that needs to be agreed upon here. Manipulating a boss miss or a crit against that boss is not as extreme as taking control of the entire enemy side, because you're still technically doing what is "allowed" by the game.

What is your definition of "allowed?" There is no function described in game that allows you to make a 15% crit chance into 100%, or an enemy's 50% hit into 0%, but this is essentially what RNG manipulation results in.

The fact of the matter is that both of these require a knowledge of the game the player is not intended to have, and no, there is no "level" of RNG manipulation to be agreed upon. It's there or it's not, and anything in between will never be agreed upon. It gets to the idea of "What is too much?" and even "What actually counts as manipulation?" dondon uses his knowledge of the enemy AI to an exploitative amount in his strategies, is that unfair? There are too many possible ways to disagree with what might not be allowed, and that's why it's best to just say that anything goes.

At the end of the day, it's dondon's choice. If he chooses not to use mines because he thinks it's uninteresting, that's fine. But it's not "cheating," and that's a bad reason for it to be taken away.

[chococoke]

Except if we're getting down to the nitty gritty, a 15% chance crit is completely feasible for the player to pull off regardless of the context. Taking control of the enemy side? There is no way you could say the same about that

EDIT: I don't think using the mine glitch is "cheating" the game, but rigging a crit is much, MUCH different than suddenly gaining control of the enemy side and doing what you will with them

Edited December 6, 2014 by chococoke

[dondon151]

chapter 23 battery save: https://db.tt/yhueRor5

i was gonna say a luna crit + axereaver but druid promo gains are 0 magic so : <<<

i don't have luna anyway. dragon's gate is ludicrously hard to do on 0% and the only treasures worth getting are the brave bow and killer bow; luna is kind of worthless this early because canas's mag stat isn't good. i have an idea of how to potentially 3-turn chapter 23, but i have to experiment to see if i can manipulate the AI in precisely the way i want to.

i already gave my 2 cents on RNG abuse but i felt like it was ignored. first of all, RNG abuse is necessary if you want any variation in outcome. it's not like in FE11 where you can reload a save to rig a killing edge crit. GBAFE RNG abuse makes it possible to crit on every attack with displayed crit, but i obviously don't do that - in fact, sometimes in FE7 i RNG abuse to unrig a crit if such a crit trivializes a strategic positioning (for example, i need kent to finish off an enemy, whoops, marcus crit with a javelin and now kent gets to do nothing).

secondly, people bring up the henning bosskill as an example of egregious RNG abuse, and i agree that the strategy was particularly unlikely, but it would seem odd, to say the least, to come up with a strategy that brings roy within seize range on turn 5 and then spend 5 more turns killing the boss while every other unit lollygags about.

Edited December 6, 2014 by dondon151

[Klokinator]

If you were the greatest strategist ever you'd be able to LTC and make changes to your style as you played, even if things occasionally don't come out in your favor. RNG manipulation is cheating, plain and simple. You might as well make the enemies always miss and the player always hit, because it's only a matter of degree.

[LeaderR Elliot]

If you were the greatest strategist ever you'd be able to LTC and make changes to your style as you played, even if things occasionally don't come out in your favor. RNG manipulation is cheating, plain and simple. You might as well make the enemies always miss and the player always hit, because it's only a matter of degree.

Lol cheating I might direct you to serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48539&hl=

Lots of FE players have no trouble with cheating... especially in a non-competitive game. FE should be played the way the player wants.

Edited December 6, 2014 by LeaderR Elliot

[Refa]

If you were the greatest strategist ever you'd be able to LTC and make changes to your style as you played, even if things occasionally don't come out in your favor. RNG manipulation is cheating, plain and simple. You might as well make the enemies always miss and the player always hit, because it's only a matter of degree.

Not actually true. An example would be needing specific stat benchmarks to reach a certain turncount, which can't be reliably done without...you guessed it, rigging stats.

[dondon151]

If you were the greatest strategist ever you'd be able to LTC and make changes to your style as you played, even if things occasionally don't come out in your favor. RNG manipulation is cheating, plain and simple. You might as well make the enemies always miss and the player always hit, because it's only a matter of degree.

well, shit, i guess i'm not the greatest strategist ever. run's canceled, everyone. nothing to see here.

if you really want the lowest turncounts, there's only so much that can't go your way. horace's 66-turn of FE8 wouldn't be possible if units stuck to their respective expected values, for example.

[Irysa]

Well the entire point of LTC is to push the game to the limit. These are not supposed to be efficiency runs, even if some of the applicable strategies are helpful for regular play too. Glitches are part of pushing the game to the limit, as is rigging.

Also WRT to Genesis, tbh since it's 0% and FE7, I'd say why not go the whole hog and attempt to skip every possible gaiden you can afford to?

Edited December 6, 2014 by Irysa

[dondon151]

Well the entire point of LTC is to push the game to the limit. These are not supposed to be efficiency runs, even if some of the applicable strategies are helpful for regular play too. Glitches are part of pushing the game to the limit, as is rigging.

Also WRT to Genesis, tbh since it's 0% and FE7, I'd say why not go the whole hog and attempt to skip every possible gaiden you can afford to?

but LTC can also be done with arbitrary but sensible constraints, such as recruiting all units or no deaths or good ending or whatever.

skipping gaidens to me feels like doing FE6 without getting the good ending. yeah, you beat the game as fast as you could, but you also skipped as much content as possible. i wouldn't fault FE7 LTCers for skipping 31x, though, that chapter is completely pointless. but i mean, a playthrough with 31x is almost identical to a playthrough without 31x.

[Klokinator]

My point wasn't "hey cheating is bad don't do it" my point is "it's apples to oranges". If you're going to rig RN's pretty much all the time then there's no reason you can't use the mine glitch, torch glitch, fire tile glitch, any glitch really. It's like watching a super mario 64 speed runner and saying "Yeah that tight precision jumping is cool and wallhacks are alright but using the backwards butt-jump to scale the stairs to Bowser at the top of the castle is just wrong."

You can't RNG abuse normally on a cartridge game. Therefore, it's cheating to use it, just the same as the mine glitch. (Actually, more so.)

Edited December 6, 2014 by Klokinator

[dondon151]

My point wasn't "hey cheating is bad don't do it" my point is "it's apples to oranges". If you're going to rig RN's pretty much all the time then there's no reason you can't use the mine glitch, torch glitch, fire tile glitch, any glitch really. It's like watching a super mario 64 speed runner and saying "Yeah that tight precision jumping is cool and wallhacks are alright but using the backwards butt-jump to scale the stairs to Bowser at the top of the castle is just wrong."

SM64 has 16-star, 70-star, and 120-star categories. some of these are more interesting than the 0-star and 1-star categories, even though the cutoffs for which glitches can be employed are more or less arbitrary.

You can't RNG abuse normally on a cartridge game. Therefore, it's cheating to use it, just the same as the mine glitch. (Actually, more so.)

you totally can. you can't view the numbers exactly with a .lua script, but i was RNG abusing in FE7 back when i first got the game in 2003.

and i actually don't use a tool to manipulate enemy phase; it's just trial-and-error, which is exactly what you'd do if you RNG abused on a cartridge. it would just take longer because you can't just press "load savestate."

Edited December 6, 2014 by dondon151

[Irysa]

I'd say aiming for the complete ending is a good idea in FE6, but FE7 is dubious about it since technically your ending is not totally complete without getting Nils to level 7 in Lyn mode.

If you want to recruit everyone/do every gaiden then I suggest you stick to that philosophy rather than make any exceptions though. Personally, I don't hold it against a FE7 player (LTC or not) for not bothering to aim for CR because of how much a pain in the ass some of the cast *coughkarlacough* are to recruit in this game (probably the most obtuse out of any FE game I've played), and since the gaidens don't really have any significant effect on the narrative, (Nino and Jaffar's aside), and you are actually given the option to not visit them in the first place I don't view them as that important either.

That being said, I do recall you said you had two main reasons in your initial FE7 0% for sticking to CR/all gaidens, which were slightly at odds with each other.

1 - its more of a challenge, and part of your goal in making videos is to entertain (makes sense, especially since you're playing on 0%)

2 - it makes it a little easier to not have to calculate total costs and benefits for individual characters or chapters (since most characters cost turns to recruit, and all gaidens are extra turns)

You want to make it more of a challenge, but at the same time you're making it a little easier on yourself. Ultimately, you seem to be making it clear that you're comfortable with those restraints, and in part the mine glitch would make things easier. I'm not going to try to impose my views on you though, if you have doubts about the mine glitch, then by all means, avoid it.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Irysa

[dondon151]

That being said, I do recall you said you had two main reasons in your initial FE7 0% for sticking to CR/all gaidens, which were slightly at odds with each other.

1 - its more of a challenge, and part of your goal in making videos is to entertain (makes sense, especially since you're playing on 0%)

2 - it makes it a little easier to not have to calculate total costs and benefits for individual characters or chapters (since most characters cost turns to recruit, and all gaidens are extra turns)

what i meant by this is that the gaidens themselves are a bit of a challenge, but doing them also allows me to hit benchmarks to make later maps easier. for example, chapter 19x is a bit tricky to 3-turn without sain/kentadin, but without it, there's no way raven can hit L10 for chapter 20 and promote. genesis is kind of just a complete nightmare, though, with the only benefit being the berserk staff.

i'm a bit puzzled by why some people think the choice of where i'll be using the CEG is "interesting." CoD is the super-obvious candidate for one of the mines. the other one is a tossup between unfulfilled heart (if vaida's spear can save 1 turn in final) or some other random map where it can save a turn (probably genesis or dragon's gate). living legend is also likely a reliable 3-turn with 700 gained EXP if i CEG, but that's pretty much it as far as the advantages go. i think what would be more interesting is watching the enemies suicide or otherwise handicap themselves in the strangest ways possible.

now as for chapter 23, i have a non-CEG strategy that could potentially lead to a 3-turn with some tweaking, but there's absolutely no way that i can get 700 EXP this way. i don't think i'm even close.