Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[Ownagepuffs]

@Czar

I'm pretty familiar with Cordelia's forged Short Spear capabilities and I was the one that did the Cherche speedwing analysis (which was slightly off I'll correct it in this post), but how does Nowi benefit from a Seraph robe? I've always given her an early Dragonstone+ and she has been good.

About Cherche + Speedwing. My previous analysis had her at 12 speed. Her Lunatic base is 13. Assuming she gets 1 speed in C12 (50% growth, not so unlikely) that puts her at 14. Tonic + Speedwing puts her at 18 which doubles C13 fighters cleanly. Instant promo makes that 20, doubling the Archers too but instant promo is meh. You could also give her 2 more speed for 20 via Paladin, Swordmaster or Hero support.

With 20 speed she avoids getting doubled by the C14 Pegs unless they spawn with Spd +2 but who cares they can barely scratch her. 22 Speed to take on the cavaliers can be handled via promotion and if we give her the Arms scroll for Beastkillers then RIP every cavalier. There is probably more to this but I'm too lazy to look further into it.

And she's waifu material so she deserves it anyway

[Czar_Yoshi]

@Czar

I'm pretty familiar with Cordelia's forged Short Spear capabilities and I was the one that did the Cherche speedwing analysis (which was slightly off I'll correct it in this post), but how does Nowi benefit from a Seraph robe? I've always given her an early Dragonstone+ and she has been good.

With both she's twice as good. Even though her defenses will be very high (16 at base with DS+), she's only got 19 HP- a Seraph Robe at base will boost her longevity by over 25%.

[Ownagepuffs]

Holy moly dat 16 Base Def. In general DS+ is a very cost prohibitive item so it's not like she'll use it all the time. 13 base def is still impressive and def tonics are an option. Yeah the Seraph robe is a good investment especially with her >100% HP growth now that I think about it.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Don't forget that she's likely to have +4 more Def on top of that from a +Def Avatar@Merc or Fred pairup, and even more if you use a Tonic. For comparison, the enemies in Cht.8 aren't all packing Silver yet (the strongest thing on the map hits for 33 physical, and most do 30 or less.

So really you're looking at being able to take any two hits and live with the Robe, and since she's ranged and it's easy to make a good choke if you're using both Pegs you're going to have a lot of control over what she fights. Anything not packing Silver though will be doing 5 at best as well.

Also, you may want to remove the Dragonstone+ occasionally to boost her Hit.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

Nowi grows well and quickly thanks to her Manakete lineage but... you're derailing the topic.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Technically Ricken derailed the topic, not me. I was only giving examples of who could make better use of statboosters.

[Ownagepuffs]

I apologize for derailing.

Donny gets my vote again because even Ricken can do something

[eclipse]

Using a Speedwing on Ricken to fix his speed problem isn't a viable option, I do realize you suggest this as a joke, allow me to elaborate on that:

I might as well use my Naga's tear on Donny to fix his base stats, as well as give him a fully forged bronze lance, with Chrom support and assumed 100% dual strike against enemies who have no counter, preferably with Lissa or Maribelle who can rescue him from potential retaliation in form of other enemies. The rescue has been bought from a merchant which spawned prior to chapter 5, of course.

This is so much fun! <3

A bit of "reading backwards" and "not pretending to be a mod" would do you well. I'll illustrate the former.

What if Ricken got the Renown Speedwing and a Frederick as a pair-up? Granted, it's not a good way to allocate resources/Frederick.

Is the post in question.

His Spd, Def and HP are pretty specifically set so he can't survive a single round of EP combat with a Wyvern in Lunatic without either a Fred pairup or a Stahl/Sully pairup and Def tonic, which causes him to require either a lot of care or some limited resources to contribute in his opening chapter. Thanks to Elwind being effective, he can contribute quite well if you do pay the price.

Is what it answered.

Ricken's base stats dictate that he either needs something on the order of 13 more HP/DEF to survive being doubled by wyverns, or +3 HP/DEF and +4 Speed. The former would be Naga's Tear, Seraph Robe, and a pair-up that gives some Defense. The latter would either be Naga's Tear and Speedwings, or Speedwings and a pair-up option that +3 DEF and +2 Speed (which Frederick provides at base). However, not everyone (like Yours Truly) has Naga's Tear available, which is why I opted for the "cheaper" Renown option. For those that don't have Speedwings, Ricken would probably need something like Lon'qu in back, and a prayer.

Lon'qu/Chrom with at least 10 Speed/Sumia with at least 10 Speed/DLC Marth and a Seraph Robe also works, but if you can get the Seraph Robe via Renown, you can get the Speedwings.

All of this was to determine whether or not Ricken was that bad - yes, it'll take a single, highly-contested resource (this is where the resource allocation thing cropped up) and a pair-up that should be used elsewhere, but he can get himself out of OHKO range at base. I don't think Donnel can say the same thing - his only saving grace, IMO, is that shut-in archer in the treasure room, which can give him a good amount of experience before keeling over and leaving Donnel just slightly worse than he was before.

[Knusperkeks]

[spoiler=wall of text]

A bit of "reading backwards" and "not pretending to be a mod" would do you well. I'll illustrate the former.

I am not pretending to be someone I am not.

After some "reading backwards", the situation became clear.

When I asked to stop discussing Nowi, I had a reason for that. You can read about it in the spoiler.

[spoiler=wall of text]

After retracing my train of thought to it's origin, I came to realize that I made an error which lead to a biased opinion about Nowi on my part.

This is the premise with which I went on to reading the posts about Nowi:

Whenever I use Nowi in any of my runs, she always gets the Seraph's Robe.

This was also pointed out in the discussion. I disregarded that because that's just what I do if I want to use Nowi.

I thought she is a good unit at base, when in reality, the base is not what I thought it would be.

The two lines directly above are the crux of the matter.

This is what I thought:

Comparing bad units is fine. (Ricken, Donnel)

Comparing bad units under different conditions with performance enhancing resources is fine too.(Ricken+Speedwing+Frederick, Donnel+...)

I was thinking of Nowi as a good unit at base(invalidating her place in this thread) which she isn't. She needs resources to be useful, which justifies her being brought up as a topic of discussion.

one: Nowi(a good, potentially great unit)

two: Ricken (a below average, potentially decent unit)

three: Donnel (a junk unit with great potential)

Comparing one to two and three doesn't seem fair, that is why I requested to not discuss Nowi here.

If you exchange one with this statement (which is the truth): Nowi is a below average unit which yields decent results with minimum investment (Seraph's Robe), she has a place here.

I'm not arguing that Ricken is worse than Donnel. This is my original post:

Personally I think Ricken is pretty bad. Of course Donnel is the ultimate failure, but that's the whole point of his existence.

I state that Donnel is the worst unit and proceed to argue that Ricken is the second worst, drawing a comparison to Miriel to whom Ricken holds a direct rivalry.

All of this was to determine whether or not Ricken was that bad - yes, it'll take a single, highly-contested resource (this is where the resource allocation thing cropped up) and a pair-up that should be used elsewhere, but he can get himself out of OHKO range at base. I don't think Donnel can say the same thing - his only saving grace, IMO, is that shut-in archer in the treasure room, which can give him a good amount of experience before keeling over and leaving Donnel just slightly worse than he was before.

The intention of the joke I made - which you quoted, was to put Ricken+Speed Wing+Frederick pair-up vs. Donnel+Tear+Forged Lance+100% DS etc, on a scale and argue that any unit, even Donnel, can be useful under the right conditions.

I ended up putting much more on Donnel's side to make them even, which essentially means that Donnel is worse than Ricken, as I stated in my opening post.

I purposefully exaggerated the support Donnel needs to do something right, which apparently went unnoticed. I believed my sarcasm to be obvious, with the heart at the end of the post and all.

I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. In fact I appreciate this forum, that's why I tried to keep the thread on topic, out of respect, nothing else. I hope my explanation is satisfactory.

Does anyone use Gaius on higher difficulties?

[Lucina_of_Ylisse]

I am replying to this in the whole scoop of the game, but I'd have say that Frederick is the worst unit. He's great at clearing early missions to make sure your characters don't die yes, but he loses all usefulness afterwards as it's usually too hard to level him up without using DLC maps. At least for me.

If you want to use Frederick, I recommend getting the EXPonential growth map and the Paragon Skill for which allows him to gain double the normal EXP amount. But that's just my take on it. I've played through Normal and Hard mode, but not Lunatic mode. He could be totally awesome in Lunatic and I just haven't seen it.

[Irysa]

Fred can't be the worst unit when he's basically mandatory to succeed without suiciding units in the early chapters on Lunatic/Lunatic +. Even if he gets benched after 4 or so maps, that's 4 maps of essential contribution compared to units like Donnel or Ricken who actually are plain difficult to raise and are supposed to be long term.

Even ignoring that he gives pretty nice pair up bonuses and has good weapon ranks so you can toss him a hammer, an armorslayer, a beastkiller, etc and have him hit stuff for a large amount of damage, or even just chip in DS from the back.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Irysa

[GigaBreaker88]

Virion is consistently worthless to my team, and a sub-par father in most cases. Miriel and Ricken feel pretty crappy too, but my vote definitely goes to Virion. What does it matter if you can hit a foe, if you can literally do zero damage?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I've used Gaius on Lunatic+ as a hard support for Panne. Early on, he did a fantastic job. Mid-game, he really started falling off, doing piddly damage, even though he still hit reasonably often. Promoted him to Assassin and he started doing okay chip again. By late game, he was pretty much just there as a stat booster (and the rare Dual Guard, I guess). And considering how my Lon'qu usually has issues with survival (borderline one-shottable rather often without a Def support or terrain Def bonus), I seriously doubt Gaius (who is even more fragile than Lon'qu) would make a good lead unit. Still, he's got enough going for him that there's no way he could qualify for worst unit.

[Ownagepuffs]

To say Fred is the worst unit breaks my heart.

I could probably do some theory crafting for Gaius but that will come later.

[Carmine Sword]

Gaius giving move on pair-up is arguably better than whatever Donnel does at any rate.

[eclipse]

I kinda suck at sarcasm, hence the reason why I try to make mine SUPER OBVIOUS. Either way, thanks for the explanation~!

Gaius gives Speed/Movement, and Frederick's viability is sort-of tied to his Speed. I managed to keep mine decent in the last Lunatic run I did all the way to Endgame, thanks to a couple of Speedwings.

Anyway, await the Gaius theory-crafting. This sounds interesting!

[Czar_Yoshi]

The intention of the joke I made - which you quoted, was to put Ricken+Speed Wing+Frederick pair-up vs. Donnel+Tear+Forged Lance+100% DS etc, on a scale and argue that any unit, even Donnel, can be useful under the right conditions.

Does anyone use Gaius on higher difficulties?

I thought you were demonstrating how many resources Donnel could get and still be bad...

I use Gaius quite often as a +Mov pairup for rescue chains, and as I usually get Anna quite late he's my only Thief for over half the game (not having Vulneraries to steal doesn't stop me from going for all the useless Chest items). So he usually gets dragged along, but rarely trained on Lunatic.

I trained him (Assassin) on Hard once though and he made a nice dodgetank. Don't remember if I paired him with anyone. Another time I tried to make him a Fighter on Hard and he reeked so badly I had to drop him immediately.

[XeKr]

Speed Pair Ups are pretty important and Gaius gives the best stat, movement. ;D

Actually chests are important too, mostly for money in the early/midgame. Anna sometimes does other stuff and does require going to a paralogue.

I've used various other class progressions for Gaius (Myrm, Fighter). His offense is nice, but usually needs support from Rescue Staves or other units because of his durability (Avoidstack in a fragile class like SM or Trickster, with Swords, typically isn't the best).

[Eselred]

To say that Frederick is the worst unit in the game is as wrong as saying Marcus, Zealot, Seth, etc. are the worst units in their games. Fred is absolutely essential earlier on in the higher difficulties, and even after that, his nice pair up bonuses and good weapon ranks make him useful even into the mid game. Long-term in a grinding run he really falls off a cliff, but his key contributions early on cannot be ignored.

Donnel, on the other hand, is completely worthless as a unit without a ton of training. Ricken is really bad as well, with pair up bonuses that don't benefit much of your party at that time, and he is an annoying liability in the chapter he joins in. Virion is pretty bad, but he's forced in a few chapters anyway so might as well use him, and his +2 STR/+2 DEF pair up bonus is pretty nice.

Gaius is useful for opening chests and the +MOV pair up bonus. Keep him away from solo combat or in the back of a pair up and he does just fine.

[Irysa]

I think Ricken should get a slight shout out for like, helping out with letting other units have a capability to move around decently via pair up on Chapter 8 and 9 because of the desert. I mean yeah I didn't use his combat at all there, but even just having a single turn of being able to move actually good units up farther faster is helpful!

Edited February 24, 2015 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

Gaius is pretty useful to open chests and can make a good pair up bot. As a main combat unit...eh. Relying on Iron Swords with 7 base Str isn't a good start and his low Def growth makes him pretty squishy long term.

Donnel starts in a huge hole compared to enemies that he has a long time climbing out of- he also has some weapon rank problems. Ricken is pretty bad as well, not sure if he's worse than Virion or not.

Edited February 24, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Ownagepuffs]

I was gonna be too lazy to do the theory craft but eclipse is awaiting it and I can't disappoint her >_>. This won't be a complete one since I'm away from home but I'll try.

Gaius has 7 base strength + 60% Growth (fucking huge for his class) and a staggering 15 base speed (that beats out both Sumia and Lon'qu!). That's the highest base speed on any unpromoted unit. His offensive parameters are not lacking at all. It's hard to evaluate individual units in Awakening because the game is really focused on paired combat.

D swords isn't so bad, he can use Roy's Blade (8 mt, 95 hit) and Wyrmslayer just in time for C7 which has Wyverns.

He also is unique in that he is one of Sumia's few potential suitors (even if Chrom god stomps all of Sumia's other suitors he we're just mentioning the possibility). Speaking of which, base level Gaius doubles literally every enemy in C7 sans the thieves w/ Sumia pair up. 15 base + 4 Speed from Sumia puts him at 19. Hell, that 19 also doubles everything in C8 sans the Myrmidons as well.

He also has a good pair up option in Sully, giving him 16 speed (17 if Sully has 10 speed). 16/17 still doubles like 80% of the enemies in C7 and C8.

He has a few issues. Namely, durability and competition. With a base of 5 def and a growth of 30% he's not going to take many hits. His main competition is also LQ who still has access to Wyvern and is very similar in terms of classes.

Gaius isn't bad. He does have potential use.

Also Virion has amazing pair up bonuses early on, don't knock on him so easily.

[-Cynthia-]

Unless I'm missing something about the importance of skill early game, it seems like both Cavs, Vaike, and Kellam are all better pair up bots. All give 2 Str and 2 Def, Vaike is an extra 2 Str, Kellam is an extra 1 Str and 3 Def, Stahl and Sully are an extra point of speed compared to Virion. Not really seeing the 'amazing'.

[Irysa]

Virion's pair up is more to do with his Fred support.

I've said this before but both Cavs are kinda required to get squishies out the way on Turn 1 of Chapter 2 (or at least, thats how I keep people alive!), Vaike starts with no weapon, and Virion comes with an Elixir, and Bows don't care about weapon triangle so he can sit on the same weapon in the back forever and has good base accuracy. The fact he gives def, actually supports Fred, is pretty much completely free on turn 1 and has the Elixir for Fred to use (admittedly you can just tradepass it onto Fred in some other manner or do it in Chapter 1) all make him a good candidate for pairing into Fred on that map, and then he'll have a C support with him and he'll just be better than the other options by default. Fred doesn't mind having extra skill either for Luna I suppose but that's really neglible.

Vaike and Stahl don't support Fred. Basically the only competition here is Sully who has worse DS due to her weapon ranks and takes more maps to build support with Fred, and her speed won't make Fred double. Considering we're likely benching both Fred and Virion eventually it works out pretty well.

Also yes admittedly Sumia also supports Fred pretty well for earlygame but that's kinda a waste of Sumia and Cynthia overall really since we want Fred to just hit things hard and take hits earlygame, not really ORKO and double stuff.

Otherwise, if we're going for long term investment in pairings, then yeah the Cavs or Vaike are better. But whatever. Putting two short term units that compliment each other together is just really sensible.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Irysa

[Ownagepuffs]

Dat feel when you are typing, refresh the page, and then see Irysa say what you were going to say but in much more detail and with much prettier words.

Well Irysa said it way better than I could've. Amazing is the wrong word, but they are good bonuses and Virion's main use is via Fred support. Fred appreciates the durability boost since he isn't long term.