Best GBA Cavalier?

[Irysa]

@Irysa you meant Gilliam and not Garcia right? Garcia's not actually that terrible either I'd say Paladin is still better overall since Franz's skill kinda sucks so handaxes -5 hit kinda makes a difference when you have like 70-75 hit on archers (javelins would gain another 5 hit pretty quickly too with the S rank bonus), There's lots of sword enemies in FE8 too, so Javelins are just universally better unlike in FE7 imo.

Well obviously I can't contest that Paladin is not the best choice for Franz, if not for the +2 mov alone, and I didn't do as such. I was merely making the case that if we are going slow enough to funnel exp into mehish units such as Garcia and Gilliam, and then actually training them onwards as 6 mov units for lots of axe rank witht he aim of using Garm, then that means we're playing slowly enough that GK Franz should be allowed to be considered (because otherwise Paladin Franz or Seth probably ran ahead and killed all those units before those bozos managed to actually get into range) Franz can get way more EXP way faster at the start of the game and has better bases and growths compared to either of them, can actually double enemies consistently and will quite literally leave them in the dust.

Obviously you'll want to make Franz a Pally over GK though, which makes Gerik the next best user, but as I said, I'm trying to ignore that opportunity cost. It's like not penalising the cost incurred for recruiting a unit when comparing the two in a debate or something. Paladin Franz > GK Franz, but GK Franz is still better than Gilliam or Garcia. The only thing I'm not sure about is if he beats Gerik, but I think Franz gains levels fast enough uncontested for so long that he should be expected to be better statistically than Gerik, and he will have actually had more opportunity to build axe rank.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

Oh, you were suggesting that so he could use Garm, I missed that.

Honestly pretty much anybody that uses axes can use garm, you can Devil axe the Gorgon eggs for massive exp, and Steel weapons give twice the WExp of Irons and are E rank. (why IS, steel swords and lances are D rank), so Franz or Gerik or General Amelia can reach Garm by endgame if you put your mind to it.

[Eselred]

Kyle and Forde are all right. Their main problem is that they don't really stand out; they're just kind of average. Like has been mentioned earlier, FE8 has a handful of units that are exceptional, a bunch that are just kind of there, and then another handful that are downright awful.

Seth

Franz

Eir!Saleh

Eph!Duessel

Eph!Cormag

Gerik

Artur

Tethys

Staff users (Can never have enough!)

Thief (on a few maps they can be useful)

Lord

Just looking at that list, most of your deployment slots are already taken up by units that make a difference. I just recently played through FE8 a few times; once on each route. One time I used Kyle and Forde to end game; the other I didn't. Honestly, in the game I did use them to end game, they could have probably been easily replaced since Seth and Franz can blaze across the map anyway.

Finally, FE8 Hard Mode isn't that easy; I would say it is equal to or harder than FE7 EHM. Enemies actually have something resembling stats in FE8 HM, except for monsters, but monsters can just swarm you and if RNG fails you they can actually be a threat. Seth is clearly in a tier of his own, but he can only be in one place at one time, and RNG can fail him as well (my Seths, for example, always seem to end up SPD screwed).

In regards to the FE6 Cavaliers, Allen and Lance can be pretty good because you get them from the beginning and they can support each other. Noah is pretty blah and Treck is terrible. Honestly, most friendly units in FE6 are terrible, but Allen and Lance are at least decent and usable.

In FE7, I would actually rate Lowen higher than Kent and Sain, since Lowen's early game contributions are pretty huge. This, of course, assumes that both Kent and Sain are still Cavs and didn't use the LHM Knight Crest, since this is a Cavalier discussion thread and all. LHM is an obvious advantage to the units who can participate in it, and I don't think it would be fair to compare units with LHM boosts to other units who never get the opportunity. For instance, one could run LHM solely focused on Sain, and have him come out as a 20/1 (or something close...best I got was 16/1 and wasn't totally focused on Sain) Paladin with all the LHM stat boosters too (because if you're all-in for Sain, why not?). Is that really fair to then compare that uber Sain to Lowen?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Eselred

[feplus]

Finally, FE8 Hard Mode isn't that easy; I would say it is equal to or harder than FE7 EHM.

I don't agree with this at all. As you said, there are a number of exceptionally good characters the game throws at you, and endgame maps- which logic dictates should be the most difficult- are filled with monsters. Ten weapons that eat monsters for breakfast are handed out for free.

Plus there's the promoted enemy stats glitch. Plus you can spend ten minutes at the Tower to trivialize things further.

[Eselred]

I don't agree with this at all. As you said, there are a number of exceptionally good characters the game throws at you, and endgame maps- which logic dictates should be the most difficult- are filled with monsters. Ten weapons that eat monsters for breakfast are handed out for free.

Plus there's the promoted enemy stats glitch. Plus you can spend ten minutes at the Tower to trivialize things further.

You can grind in other FE games as well with Arena abuse; it's just easier and more convenient in FE8. Most of these discussions assume no grinding, since grinding can make any unit into a superhero and trivialize any game.

And there aren't exceptionally good characters in FE7? I mean come on, Marcus and Pent break the game wide open. The point that people who've actually played FE8 HM without grinding were actually making is that outside of a handful of great units, most of the characters in FE8 are fairly mediocre in an efficient run without lots of grinding and infinite stat boosters. Marcus and Seth are comparable, since they ROFLstomp. Pent is amazing, and while Saleh is pretty awesome in FE8, he pales in comparison to Pent and basically doesn't exist in Ephraim's route. There is no Hawkeye equivalent in FE8 (Dozla...LOL) or Harken...you know, great prepromotes that you can throw into your army without losing a step. Duessel is great on Ephraim's route, but he runs into SPD issues very quickly (even with a Speedwing because again FE8 HM enemies actually have stats), and he basically doesn't exist in Eirika's route. Mounted healers are actually pretty bad in FE8 (!), since their move was nerfed and L'Arachel joins too late and too low in level/staves to be much use. Cormag basically doesn't exist on Eirika's route, since his map is later along the route, and you can beat the map well before he shows up anyway.

Try playing FE8 sometime without grinding. It's not nearly as difficult as HHM, but it's still harder than EHM. Just off the top of my head, Father and Son HM is more difficult than anything in EHM. Those Druids have a decent hit rate and range with Berserk, the Priests have middle-ish hit rates with their staves, and the Longbows are a pain, plus reinforcements everywhere. Even the mighty Seth is susceptible to Berserk, and the not-Seth units can be overrun since Seth can only do one thing at time.

PS - I'm not aware of the "FE8 enemy stats glitch" you are referring to. Enemies (not monsters) in FE8 actually have stats on HM. Better than FE7 enemies at any rate (except those dang female Druids in CoD, which might be exclusive to HHM?).

Edited February 15, 2015 by Eselred

[feplus]

Grinding is significantly easier, less time-consuming, and less risky via the Tower than arena abuse. Stories abound of new players pouring hours into arena abuse only to have an unlucky critical end their run. Tower grinding doesn't have that disincentive.

Sure, FE7 has some stellar units. Seth is better than Marcus and Duessel is a boss on casual runs, but Pent outclasses Saleh, Hawkeye outclasses Dozla, Vaida outclasses Syrene, and Harken is an animal. FE7's got sweet prepromotes. On the flip side, Sacred Stones gives you a dragon, Gerik, Seth, Franz, Cormag, a couple of great lords, and nine weapons / tomes that cut through monsters like butter. If most of EHM's final maps were comprised of enemies that took triple might from your best weapons, I'd be inclined to agree with your assessment.

On reflection I believe the enemy stats glitch (which cuts prepromote stats far below what they should be) is exclusive to Normal Mode so it wouldn't apply. Someone with better knowledge of FE8's mechanics can clarify.

And yes female Druids are HHM exclusive.

[Audhulma]

Hey all, I'm new to these forums, my favorite of them all is actually Kyle, but I kinda like them all anyway.

[Prince Blueblood]

AAndddddd.... Sain already predictably being the winner of this title bout!

[Delphi Sage]

Whoa, flame war behind my back. And here I thought all I'd get would be comments about "SAIN TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES" like with 4chan.

PEMN, but all my Fordes and Kyles turn out mediocre and always proccing HP only levelups. My Noahs, however, tend to really gorge on skill and defense.

[Paper Dragon]

I actually like Lowen the best, I just got lucky with him and he became one of my best units due to his tankiness which never failed me.

I never really used Sain or Kent too much... mainly because in Lyn's story I just trained Lyn and one other unit... I don't remember which. I may be missing out but since the battery died in the game cartridge, I can't save anymore so I don't think I'll be replaying the game very soon. (I'm still in mourning over the cartridge)

[Lord Raven]

PEMN, but all my Fordes and Kyles turn out mediocre and always proccing HP only levelups. My Noahs, however, tend to really gorge on skill and defense.

Trust me, when your Fordes/Kyles are doing the correct thing, it's not that much better.

[captainnameless]

you can't stop the sain train

[Glitchy]

Sain's personality is the best. I also love Kent.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

I voted Kent, but Alan is a close second for me.

They are my almost Cain.

[Sunfall]

Maybe it's just because I never play through Lyn's Tale anymore (really, I just want to jump into the main campaign), but I almost always end up using Lowen in the long term. At worst, he usually ends up being a decently tanky unit with a horse. I only use Kent or Sain if Lowen goes several levels through the beginning with very few stat gains.

I always have terrible luck with Binding Blade's cavaliers aside from Allen, and even then I'm only using him for his movement; most of my foot units are just plain better combatants.

It's been a long time since I've played Sacred Stones, and I remember the cavaliers there being decent. Not bad by any means, but nothing really outstanding. Plus there's the fact Seth exists....

[Paper Jam]

I like Kent's Skill and Speed growths and his comically serious personality, and I think that his supports with Fiora are a veritable gas, so I voted for him.

[VROOOOM]

I'd put Lowen or Noah but their situation seems unsalvageable. So I'll go with Franz since I find Sain to be over rated as a unit.