Best GBA Cavalier?

[Riff]

Treck

nuff said

[Prince Blueblood]

technically in ltc you just one turn Lloyd's chapter so wallance has no chance of being recruited

There aren't really any bad cavaliers though. Kyle, Forde and Treck are kind of mediocre I guess, but they're still 7 move units with some durability and offence.

LTC + Complete recruitment, nuff said...

[dondon151]

you also need LHM to 2-turn port of badon and to 3-turn the dread isle because otherwise florina just rolls over and dies.

[-Cynthia-]

technically in ltc you just one turn Lloyd's chapter so wallance has no chance of being recruited

There aren't really any bad cavaliers though. Kyle, Forde and Treck are kind of mediocre I guess, but they're still 7 move units with some durability and offence.

Treck isn't like Wendy awful, but he's never going to double anything except armors he can barely hurt. Doesn't even have D swords and we have 5 other cavalier/paladins at this point (as well as other mounts) so even his horse isn't very useful.

[General Horace]

Yeah, I forgot about Treck's weapon ranks, they are pretty unfourtunate. He's probably the worst of the lot.

Kyle and Forde are still pretty awful as far as cavaliers go though.

[-Cynthia-]

Kyle and Forde seem pretty solid to me. They're relatively bulky (more so than Ephraim) with similar Str to him(Kyle has 1 more and Forde has 1 less, Eph does have his Prf weapon though). Their AS looks to be their biggest problem, but so many FE8 enemies weigh themselves down that they only need like 9 AS to double lots of stuff around their join chapter- which is one speed proc for Forde and two for Kyle.

Yeah, they suck compared to like Seth but they can be 9 Mov units that have pretty good combat.

Edited February 14, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[General Horace]

I've always found they start too underlevelled. Even with levels their stats are really weak.

Like compare Forde's bases to Franz's. They have the same base Strength, and Forde has one more speed, and is five levels higher.

FE8 enemies are actually pretty fast as a whole though (the ones that aren't zombies anyway). Most of the Mercs have 10-14 AS and the slower enemies like fighters have a ton of HP (and still around 9AS) so Kyle and Forde can't really handle them. The rest of the enemies are either tanky monsters or Cavaliers, who are too tanky for Kyle/Forde to ORKO.

But seriously, Forde is 5 levels high than Franz and has the same base strength and +1 base speed, and Franz's bases are pretty standard for a level 1 cavalier.

A general benchmark needed to double most unpromoted units is like, 13AS which Forde doesn't reach until level 18 and Kyle doesn't reach until level 20

at which point most of the enemies are promoted and they can't double them anyway.

Comparing them to Ephraim is a pretty big joke too, the dude is a level 4 unit with 11 base speed and lances, and like you said a totally broken prf. Ephraim also beats them or ties them in every non-HP growth, too.

tl;dr they never have good combat against anything other than soldiers (and forde still need steel lances to kill them) and zombies. They also never double in their join chapter because they come with steel weapons as well.

also paladins have 8 move in fe8

Edited February 14, 2015 by General Horace

[Prince Blueblood]

and when they're coming to real play, we could bet that at most of the games we play, Franz is already higher leveled than those two... (but still have to pray for RNG goddess)

[-Cynthia-]

I've always found they start too underlevelled. Even with levels their stats are really weak.

Like compare Forde's bases to Franz's. They have the same base Strength, and Forde has one more speed, and is five levels higher.

FE8 enemies are actually pretty fast as a whole though (the ones that aren't zombies anyway). Most of the Mercs have 10-14 AS and the slower enemies like fighters have a ton of HP (and still around 9AS) so Kyle and Forde can't really handle them. The rest of the enemies are either tanky monsters or Cavaliers, who are too tanky for Kyle/Forde to ORKO.

But seriously, Forde is 5 levels high than Franz and has the same base strength and +1 base speed, and Franz's bases are pretty standard for a level 1 cavalier.

A general benchmark needed to double most unpromoted units is like, 13AS which Forde doesn't reach until level 18 and Kyle doesn't reach until level 20

at which point most of the enemies are promoted and they can't double them anyway.

Comparing them to Ephraim is a pretty big joke too, the dude is a level 4 unit with 11 base speed and lances, and like you said a totally broken prf. Ephraim also beats them or ties them in every non-HP growth, too.

tl;dr they never have good combat against anything other than soldiers (and forde still need steel lances to kill them) and zombies. They also never double in their join chapter because they come with steel weapons as well.

also paladins have 8 move in fe8

A lot of the enemies have ~9 AS listed, but are slowed down by Steel weapons or tomes or whatever so they actually have 4-5 AS- check the Hard Mode stats topic for reference. They probably won't double mercenaries or myrms I guess, but a lot of enemy types end up falling in the low AS range. The doubling threshold for most of FE8 isn't that high (and most of the promoted enemies in the later chapters we just warpskip past anyway).

They're not as good as Franz, but that doesn't make them "pretty awful". I would take Kyle/Forde over a lot of other mid/upper mid units like Joshua for instance. Sure Joshua can double mercenaries and shit, but he's swordlocked with 2 less move and Kyle/Forde have the same parameters against most enemies because most FE8 enemies are bad.

[Irysa]

I think "pretty awful" is perhaps too strong, but honestly the gap between Seth and Franz (less extent Vanessa and even lesser extent Gerik) to everyone else is just fucking ridiculous when it comes to FE8.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

There are a few enemies weighed down in the early chapters of their join times (like say, pirates in the water that they're never dealing with) but a good majority of the enemies in chapter 9 are merceneries and archers, Kyle won't double the archers (even with their lame 6 AS) and Forde won't ORKO them. Most of the axe using enemies start in the little group beneath your starting spawn, and its easy to leave someone like Joshua or Eirika back to kill them.

Chapter 10 is mostly mercs and fighters, most of the weighed down fighters have hand axes, so Forde and Kyle can't counter. There's literally one steel axe fighter in the chapter. Nobody has a prayer other than maybe Joshua, Vanessa or Seth when it comes to the myrms and mercs though.

Chapter 11 has a bunch of chumpy monsters, so I guess movement wins here. The Gargoyles all have iron weapons though, so their 10 speed stands.

12 has less chumpy monsters (including Mauthe doogs that likely double Kyle and maybe even Forde) and more gargoyle that aren't ORKO'd even if they do double.

13 is a bunch of 9AS cavaliers and knights, more enemies they struggle with, although that's largely inconsequential because the chapter is probably over pretty fast anyway.

14 they're pretty good though, it might be better to early promote them (which neuters their lategame effectiveness) so they can move to the throne quicker. There really aren't very many enemies here though.

15's obviously bad for them because of the desert, and the rest of the game can be warpskipped, but if it isn't, they're pretty bad since the prepremoted units are actually surprisingly fast and tanky until you get back into the monsters anyway.

They just have no real time where they're an above average unit I guess. At least other mediocre units like Noah (with his sword rank) and Lowen (with his good bases early on) can shine, they never really have any good moments.

Ephraim Route is much the same, but with more Cavaliers and Mercs they can't deal with.

I think "pretty awful" is perhaps too strong, but honestly the gap between Seth and Franz (less extent Vanessa and even lesser extent Gerik) to everyone else is just fucking ridiculous when it comes to FE8.

i think it's actually pretty accurate, people have misconceptions about a lot of units in FE8 (in my opinion anyway) like Duessel and Moulder. But you're right, after units like Seth, Franz, Vanessa, Artur, Eir!Saleh, Eph!Cormag, and Gerik, a good majority lf the FE8 cast is pretty underwhelming though, I agree.

[-Cynthia-]

Your standards for "pretty awful" make no sense then. Kyle and Forde are consistently above average because they're obviously better than shit like Neimi or Ewan and they're better than foot units like Joshua or Garcia or whoever because they do the same combat except with mounts (but Joshua can double some uncommon enemy types or something). Being better than most units we have available= above average, even if they're worse than the top few units.

Lol @ Noah being a "shining" unit. Just because he can use Steel Swords and be better than Treck =/= good. We have like one Killing Edge until the Chapter 13 shop and we need that for Rutger to bosskill stuff. By Chapter 13, Noah can't double much of anything (not like he could double much except armors and loldiers anyway) and probably couldn't kill even if he critted because his Str base and growth are pretty bad.

[dondon151]

noah's sword rank isn't even that useful; it helped a couple of times when i needed to squeeze out extra damage with the steel blade (ew), but in a growths playthrough he is definitely pretty bad. FE6 paladins are more about the mov than the stats in the midgame chapters, which is why noah doesn't seem as bad as forde and kyle in an LTC context, since the FE8 cavalier actually needs to be able to fight whereas the FE6 cavalier just needs to be able to do double digit damage.

Edited February 14, 2015 by dondon151

[General Horace]

Your standards for "pretty awful" make no sense then. Kyle and Forde are consistently above average because they're obviously better than shit like Neimi or Ewan and they're better than foot units like Joshua or Garcia or whoever because they do the same combat except with mounts (but Joshua can double some uncommon enemy types or something). Being better than most units we have available= above average, even if they're worse than the top few units.

Lol @ Noah being a "shining" unit. Just because he can use Steel Swords and be better than Treck =/= good. We have like one Killing Edge until the Chapter 13 shop and we need that for Rutger to bosskill stuff. By Chapter 13, Noah can't double much of anything (not like he could double much except armors and loldiers anyway) and probably couldn't kill even if he critted because his Str base and growth are pretty bad.

when I say they're "pretty bad", look at it this way

you have the obviously good units, like Seth and co, and the obviously bad units like Ewan and Marisa. Forde and Kyle are somewhere in the middle, bunched with middling units like Duessel, Joshua, and uhhh, Dozla or something. In my opinion, their is a much bigger gap between someone like Seth and Forde, than someone like Marisa and Forde, just because the best units in the game are so much better than the rest of the cast. Seriously, Marisa's offence in chapter 11 is only slightly worse than Forde, and I think everyone can agree that Marisa is an awful unit. Theoretically, Seth is a 10, Marisa is a 2, and Forde/Kyle are like a 5, average at best.

so tl;dr being above average (they're not even that, one could name ~10-15 units that are better) doesn't equate to being a good unit. One can score above the average on a test, but if the average is 30%, it's still not a good score.

I'd honestly argue that Joshua is about as good as Kyle or Forde. He's much better in Chapter 9 and 10, and can solo Caellach's area and Caellach himself with very little investment. Unless we're talking pure LTC in which case kyle/forde win because they save a turn in 5x.

I will admit that I gave Noah a bit too much credit but you're criticizing Noah for being bad at the exact same things that Kyle and Forde are bad at:

can't double much of anything (not like he could double much except armors and loldiers anyway)

at least Noah can double enemies in the Western Isles since 70% of them have steel axes (he doesn't kill, yes) but I guess his offence is only slightly better than someone like Astohl or something.

Edited February 14, 2015 by General Horace

[Vorena]

Franz > Sain simply because of the game that Franz is in compared to Sain.

[chococoke]

Erik is best. Appears in 2 games and also one of the few units who can put a hurt on Marcus in FE7 early game

[feplus]

@Horace I'm curious why you aren't big on Duessel.

[General Horace]

He's fantastic on the phantom ship, but other than that, he's really reliant on actually proc'ing speed to stay relevant (even with a speedwing). Sure, he'll probably never die, and can use Garm, but 6 move is below average for promoted units.

It's more of the same reasons I don't like Kyle and Forde. Eph!Duessel is a bit better, but you get a powerhouse in Cormag in the same chapter and he just crushes Duessel statwise after like, a few levels and a promotion, and he's very good in the next few maps (desert, Selena's chapter etc) while Duessel really isn't (or is just another dude that 2HKO's enemies, although he's good against the knights in chapter 14). His base level is also really high, so he gains exp way too slowly to be effective lategame. People hype up being able to S rank axes and use Garm easily, but he doesn't even use it that well. He doesn't have a prayer to double the final boss, and his hit is pretty awful anyway since his base skill and luck are very low (like, he only has one more skill than Dozla and is 7 levels higher). I guess he can help kill Lyon in chapter 17 (but if you're using Duessel you've probably gone Eph route, and he's the best bosskiller lategame in that case), and you still have other guys like Cormag that do the job better.

And I don't think anybody thinks he's that good on Eirika route. He's ok filler I guess, nothing more.

Edited February 15, 2015 by General Horace

[feplus]

Makes sense. I think an invaluable Phantom Ship contribution + easy Garm use + virtually invincible is significant, but I guess it depends on playstyle and how fast you're going.

Edited February 15, 2015 by feplus

[General Horace]

I definately still think he's a solid unit, I just don't think he's the god that some people make him out to be on Ephraim route.

If you promote Gilliam the chapter after getting Duessel to Great Knight, you have a very similar unit (albeit at the cost of using a knight crest on Gilliam), which puts things into perspective a bit too.

But like you said, it depends on playstyles.

Edited February 15, 2015 by General Horace

[Moishe Oofnik]

If we are talking about the best performance throughout the game kent sain will likely cap str 60% str growth is nothing to laugh at and he will likely cap str at 20/10 +having decent luck and his skill wont average low

43.4 25 14.8 18.2 13.8 13.6 6.6

as you see he wont have much of a problem hitting units while his speed would be enough to double most of FE7s shit enemys unless they are like SMs and Heroes

the sain i had in my last walkthrough had this stats

20/10 sain

48 hp 25 str 16 skill 21 speed 15 luck 18 def 8 res

he raped HHM for me at least

Franz is Seth light nough said he has no competition

for cavs in his game (kyle opts as best great knight but duessel is already promoted and no grind and forde is just a weaker franz)

[-Cynthia-]

I definately still think he's a solid unit, I just don't think he's the god that some people make him out to be on Ephraim route.

If you promote Gilliam the chapter after getting Duessel to Great Knight, you have a very similar unit (albeit at the cost of using a knight crest on Gilliam), which puts things into perspective a bit too.

But like you said, it depends on playstyles.

They don't look very similar to me at all. 10/1 Gilliam (even getting Gilliam to level 10 is a hassle if we're trying to be remotelty efficient) has 8 less HP, 3 less Str, 5 less Spd, 3 less Skl, 3 less Def (admittedly both have overkill Def), 4 less Res. Duessel also has A axes, lances, and swords while Gilliam has E Swords, D Axes, and B? Lances.

Maybe a few people overrate Duessel, but he's not close to Gilliam at all really. Even 20/1 Gilliam is 2 points slower than a base Duessel.

Edited February 15, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[MacLovin]

Eph!Duessel's just a solid unit that joins right before an annoying chapter and doesn't cost a knight crest.

as for other Garm users, I think the only ones that could compare to Duessel are Hero!Gerik/Garcia and maybe Hero/Zerker!Ross.

[Irysa]

If we're being suboptimal enough to actually train Garcia that much then GK Franz is probably better than all of them since he can just chuck hand axes instead of javelins for ages. I mean sure you'd make him a Paladin anyway, but in terms of hypotheticals and ignoring opportunity cost of not making him a Paladin (which is fair if Garcia is getting that much exp lol), Franz is probably the best one.

As a side note, I've always thought it was hilarious that Great Knights get more of a speed bonus on promotion than Paladins do.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

It's pretty unreasonable for Gilliam to only gain 6 levels in 10 maps, he can actually get exp reletively easily. In a draft here http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33007&page=3where I essentially gave Vanessa as much exp as possible Gilliam managed to reach 15/2 by Duessel's join chapter, which essentially just makes him a slower Duessel. This is probably playing faster than most people play with a full team with Seth too, so i'd assume a 102 turn clear without Seth is remotely efficient, especially since my Vanessa was pretty terrible. Drafts are a different environment than normal playthroughs, but my point still stands.

15/2 Gilliam loses by 4 HP, 1 strength, 1 skill, 4 speed (which does suck), ties defence, and probably loses luck and res, I forget Duessel's bases there (they're pretty irrelevant anyway)

They're pretty much the exact same unit, except Gilliam doesn't double Fighters and weighed down archers, and Gilliam gains exp almost twice as fast as Duessel, so he'll likely surpass him in strength in a couple chapters.

A Axes isn't honestly any better than D axes in almost any way, does Duessel actually need to use any axe that's higher than D rank before later in the game (where Gilliam can easily have matched the rank) anyway? Gilliam has a high lance rank too, he'd probably have A lances, but that's irrelevant. And does anybody actually ever give Duessel (or any great knight really) swords? Gilliam can use Garm just as well as Duessel can too, although Gerik's a far better candidate than both of them if he's in play.

I'm not saying Gilliam's fantastic or anything, but the gap between him and Duessel isn't big at all. Gilliam technically does stuff for the first half of the game too (albeit he's not all that useful in the first few maps)

@Irysa you meant Gilliam and not Garcia right? Garcia's not actually that terrible either I'd say Paladin is still better overall since Franz's skill kinda sucks so handaxes -5 hit kinda makes a difference when you have like 70-75 hit on archers (javelins would gain another 5 hit pretty quickly too with the S rank bonus), There's lots of sword enemies in FE8 too, so Javelins are just universally better unlike in FE7 imo.

EDIT: All this being said Gilliam nor Duessel are actually Cavaliers let alone Paladins, my bad

EDIT2: ok Duessel's a Cavalier in Reverse recruitment he totally counts

Edited February 15, 2015 by General Horace