Maybe I'm just spoilt by other FE games now but...

[Irysa]

I feel a bit cheated replaying this game casually, because the deployment slots on HHM really make it kinda annoying to actually use all the units I want to use. I started a raw HHM run (no LHM beforehand, never done HHM without it!) ages ago and came back to it , but I'd really forgotten how few units you actually get to field in this game compared to Tellius, DSFE, Awakening or even FE6, where your deployment slots are actually a tad excessive by comparison, and you can practically field every good character and more!

I suppose if you want to use more units you're rather encouraged to just cycle them in and out, what with how ranking works in this game, but I find that a lot less endearing. I'm also lazy and want to just keep fielding the same team the whole game. But really, what between wanting to adequately train the Lords enough to get Geitz, fielding staples like Ninian, Pris, Marcus and Pent, training Bartre to get Karla, and occaisonal required thief deployment for other things you get pretty squashed for slots if you want to just field some units you just happen to like.

I guess Bartre isn't too difficult to feed EXP if he's intermittently deployed and works hard in forced deployment maps (his and ones where I get the Lords out for free), so I probably shouldnt really count him. But still, there are too many fun infantry units in this game combined with the fact you wanna deploy tons of mounted units because its a mount biased game. Oh well.

[Ownagepuffs]

You know I haven't touched FE7 in quite a while so I never realized that it had limited deployment slots.

... Dang. Now that I look back on it, there were always a bunch of people I wanted to deploy but ended up not deploying because limited slots.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[DragonLord]

I just finished my Hector Hard Mode run a few days ago, and I didn't even notice the limited deployment slots with the exception of a few chapters. It makes it fun to go back and play with a different set of characters, at least for me.

[X-Naut]

I don't know what you're getting at with FE6 having low deployments slots (I can name the chapters on one hand), but I agree, I don't like HHM's use of deployment slot deprivation as difficulty. Between that, the poor enemy bonuses and early item starvation it made a lot of poor choices.

[Irysa]

No I was saying that other games, including FE6, have high amount of (excessive even) deployment slots compared to FE7 HHM.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Irysa

[Paper Jam]

I notice that you didn't include FE5 among your list of "other games."

Well, I haven't played FE5 myself, but what I've heard about its fatigue system is that it's even more stringent than FE7's HM deployment slots.

[General Horace]

You generally still get a lot of deployment slots in fe5 (from what I remember anyway), although fatigue can be annoying.

FE7 just has some dumb chapters like Genesis and Hector's promotion chapter where you just have too few slots. Then randomly sands of time has like, 18 or some shit.

[DragonLord]

Well, I haven't played FE5 myself, but what I've heard about its fatigue system is that it's even more stringent than FE7's HM deployment slots.

The way to get around this however is to not overuse any character in the previous chapter, and to plan out who should be deployed in the current chapter. It requires more planning, but it pays off when done right. I don't mind that it hasn't returned in the series though.

[feplus]

FE7 just has some dumb chapters like Genesis and Hector's promotion chapter where you just have too few slots.

What constitutes too few slots? Seems to me both those maps are made more strategically interesting by limiting deployment.

[dondon151]

i think genesis is one of the worst designed chapters in the entire series, and the berserker is just lame. the fastest way to do that chapter is to warp hector to bosskill and you have to rig the bosskill because hector's not very good vs. kaim. if you don't warp hector to bosskill, then you have to drag his 5 mov ass through the chapter. the chapter screams for a thief but there's no way you're going to deploy one if you only have one free deployment slot.

[feplus]

the fastest way to do that chapter

An optional, player-applied challenge run is a perplexing standard by which to judge map design.

Genesis offers genuinely threatening magic users (a rarity in the series), while Berserker has a plethora of chests and stealable / droppable items. Limited deployment in Genesis forces the player to choose carefully between combat units and staff units- both invaluable- while limited deployment in Berserker forces the player to choose between a healer and warper, a thief, or a second combat unit; in other words, it's a choice between faster completion, easier completion, or more goodies.

Both maps appear to benefit from limited deployment.

Edited February 10, 2015 by feplus

[Yojinbo]

Not gonna lie, Genesis and The Berserker are definitely pushing it a bit too much with the low amount of deployment slots. These two chapters are the worst offenders by far though. Everything else is acceptable and it's actually a big part of what makes HHM still somewhat interesting to me at this point. It's likely that HHM was specifically desinged to be that way with the whole Ranking thing in view - to make it more challenging to reconcile some of the ranking requirements [Exp and Tactics in particular].

I notice that you didn't include FE5 among your list of "other games."

Well, I haven't played FE5 myself, but what I've heard about its fatigue system is that it's even more stringent than FE7's HM deployment slots.

Not really. The effects of Fatigue are way overrated imo and there are a lot of Stamina Drinks that can be picked up. As long as you don't rely on like 5 key units you're fine. FE5 gives you so many viable units that you should never find yourself in a scenario where Fatigue can screw you over.

[dondon151]

An optional, player-applied challenge run is a perplexing standard by which to judge map design.

you either didn't read the entire post or you didn't understand what i was saying.

the berserker affords you a fast option but it has very low chance of success. if you want a slower option with a higher chance of success, then hector has to amble his way through the map on his 5 mov. it's a dumb choice. and there's hardly any point to fielding a thief at all, since they are probably worse than hector at combat and can't help you at all against kaim.

Genesis offers genuinely threatening magic users (a rarity in the series), while Berserker has a plethora of chests and stealable / droppable items. Limited deployment in Genesis forces the player to choose carefully between combat units and staff units- both invaluable- while limited deployment in Berserker forces the player to choose between a healer and warper, a thief, or a second combat unit; in other words, it's a choice between faster completion, easier completion, or more goodies.

none of this is true. limited deployment in genesis is frustrating because the staff users tend to get blasted harder than combat users by adverse status and LRTs. they also can't do anything when kishuna is around, and so if a unit wanders into magic seal range and gets statused, then you're fucked. it's a horribly restrictive chapter that's not at all well designed.

just because choices exist doesn't mean that they are conducive to good chapter design.

[Baldrick]

if you want a slower option with a higher chance of success, then hector has to amble his way through the map on his 5 mov. it's a dumb choice. and there's hardly any point to fielding a thief at all, since they are probably worse than hector at combat and can't help you at all against kaim.

What's wrong with ambling? The real problem with the map is the inventory calisthenics you have to do if you don't want to have to drop most of the stuff you get.

they also can't do anything when kishuna is around, and so if a unit wanders into magic seal range and gets statused, then you're fucked.

Yeah, if you can't rescue the unit away or kishuna doesn't move, you have to wait a few turns for them to recover. That map is a real pain in LTC.

[Jotari]

none of this is true. limited deployment in genesis is frustrating because the staff users tend to get blasted harder than combat users by adverse status and LRTs. they also can't do anything when kishuna is around, and so if a unit wanders into magic seal range and gets statused, then you're fucked. it's a horribly restrictive chapter that's not at all well designed.

In my (recent) experience of Genesis, Kishuna actually doesn't tend to be a problem since he leaves after like four turns. Provided you're not warp skipping the chapter of course. Maybe my units were under leveled but try as I might (and I was at this particular map for many, many hours), I couldn't get the left hand group any further than the very left most, and down one, square. The right most group, where Hector is, couldn't get any further than the square 1 diagonal form the chest. Only Hector's group felt the effect of status staves before Kishuna disappeared and even then it was a single sleep stave used by the saint just below the starting position who was easily killed in the second chapter. Kishuna would also, always, without fail, move to the left allowing me to heal whatever unit got sleeped (if anyone even got hit). Though that particular facet might of been based on the teams I was fielding (and I did try several different possible combinations). All the other status users then to be located at the bottom of the map and, by default, happen to be in range of Kishuna and thus harmless until he disappeared. It seems like the level was designed for Kishuna to be a boon rather than a problem, with the first few chapters before he leaves being the most critical in getting rid of the powerful long range tome users.

[feplus]

you either didn't read the entire post or you didn't understand what i was saying.

the berserker affords you a fast option but it has very low chance of success. if you want a slower option with a higher chance of success, then hector has to amble his way through the map on his 5 mov. it's a dumb choice. and there's hardly any point to fielding a thief at all, since they are probably worse than hector at combat and can't help you at all against kaim.

none of this is true. limited deployment in genesis is frustrating because the staff users tend to get blasted harder than combat users by adverse status and LRTs. they also can't do anything when kishuna is around, and so if a unit wanders into magic seal range and gets statused, then you're fucked. it's a horribly restrictive chapter that's not at all well designed.

just because choices exist doesn't mean that they are conducive to good chapter design.

Let's not be condescending. In order:

1. The low chance of success you refer to only applies to LTC. If you want to go fast, but not as fast as possible, a Hector + warp user strategy is perfectly reliable. You'll lose out on goodies and the map will be more difficult than with a two-offensive-units strategy, but that's the trade-off.

2. There's ample reason to bring a thief: stealing items. This approach is slower, but that's the trade-off.

3. The magic seal is something you work around. There's a reason ranked Genesis runs provide the player with such a generous turn buffer -- you're afforded time to proceed cautiously.

4. Yes, staff users are vulnerable to status staves. This is why I mentioned the trade-off between more staff users and more fighters; both are helpful, and because deployment slots are at a premium, this trade-off is significant.

HHM Genesis can be reliably completed on a ranked run, where your units are comically underleveled and expensive weapon / item use is discouraged; a non-ranked run is even more straightforward. I see little room for complaints.

[Jedi]

Wow someone is defending Genesis, I never thought I'd see the day.

Its a remarkably bad map with questionable design all over the place, limited deployment is also completely uncalled for. Is 24x of Thracia a good map then because you have to account for invisible warp panels then?

[Jotari]

Wow someone is defending Genesis, I never thought I'd see the day.

Its a remarkably bad map with questionable design all over the place, limited deployment is also completely uncalled for. Is 24x of Thracia a good map then because you have to account for invisible warp panels then?

I'd actually be cool with the invisible warp tiles if they actually gave units some way of escaping the dungeon aside from using warping staves. Still ridiculously unfair and evil but by that point you kind of expect that from Thracia.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jotari

[feplus]

Genesis and 24x are totally different in terms of design. 24x places invisible traps all over the map, features a ton of warping enemies, and is an all-around exercise in masochism. Genesis features tough magical units and threatening status staves, forcing the player to choose carefully between strong offensive units and staff users of their own. Not super comparable.

(For the record I think both maps are brilliant, but 24x is unfair and knows it's unfair and revels in its sadism.)

[dondon151]

What's wrong with ambling? The real problem with the map is the inventory calisthenics you have to do if you don't want to have to drop most of the stuff you get.

what's wrong with inventory calisthenics? come prepared, duh.

if ambling weren't a problem, people wouldn't complain about FE4 or FE6 maps being too large.

Let's not be condescending. In order:

i'm really not being condescending. i thought i had conveyed my point clearly and you didn't seem to get the point that i wanted you to get.

HHM Genesis can be reliably completed on a ranked run, where your units are comically underleveled and expensive weapon / item use is discouraged; a non-ranked run is even more straightforward. I see little room for complaints.

if your only criterion for passable chapter design is that it can be "reliably completed," that's a really low bar. every terrible chapter in the FE franchise can be "reliably completed" except for battle before dawn. FE6 chapter 4 can be "reliably completed" in a casual playthrough. FE6 chapter 7 can be "reliably completed" in a casual playthrough. that doesn't stop them from being badly designed chapters.

you are basically telling me that i have no right to complain about genesis leaving zero options for reliable and quick clears. does anyone see the problem with this? FE6 has numerous maps in which enemies are throwing status at you from 20+ mag, but the game always gives you options to deal with them in an express manner and in a slow manner. you have sufficient options to be highly creative with your strategy, and options are what make a chapter fun. the lack thereof in genesis makes the chapter tedious.

Edited February 13, 2015 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

I'm not saying you can't complain, only that some people wouldn't be bothered by there not being a quick, reliable clear.

[Jotari]

if your only criterion for passable chapter design is that it can be "reliably completed," that's a really low bar. every terrible chapter in the FE franchise can be "reliably completed" except for battle before dawn.

Since it came up, can I take a quick second to derail and ask what's up with Battle Before Dawn? I've heard you can lose it with absolutely nothing the player can do, which left me somewhat terrified when I finally got to it in my HHM playthrough but I did it just fine in the end. What about it is broken? Is it just an unlucky string of rng numbers that can kill Nino or Jafar before you can reach them or is there simply something about the level layout that prevents perfect efficiency run of it?

[Jedi]

Since it came up, can I take a quick second to derail and ask what's up with Battle Before Dawn? I've heard you can lose it with absolutely nothing the player can do, which left me somewhat terrified when I finally got to it in my HHM playthrough but I did it just fine in the end. What about it is broken? Is it just an unlucky string of rng numbers that can kill Nino or Jafar before you can reach them or is there simply something about the level layout that prevents perfect efficiency run of it?

It's pretty much the RNG screwing over Jaffar, Nino, or Zephiel in some instances. Pretty brutal chapter overall imo.

[General Horace]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure if you play fast enough Zephiel (and Nino, but I think she can sit around until Ursula moves and be OK) will always survive, but Jaffar can curl up and die very early, and his death makes you miss a gaiden chapter (and a unit himself) so people generally restart.

[Jedi]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure if you play fast enough Zephiel (and Nino, but I think she can sit around until Ursula moves and be OK) will always survive, but Jaffar can curl up and die very early, and his death makes you miss a gaiden chapter (and a unit himself) so people generally restart.

If I recall Zephiel is threatened by at least 2 fighters which he should be able to handle but sometimes derps, its rare but.. Then again I haven't played FE7 in awhile.