Should Casual Return?

[Irysa]

I'm not going to specifically respond to previous posts in this thread now because I don't want to make a gigantic pithy quotefest again.

So I'll just try to outline some common points.

Although beforehand, again, I implore everyone to read this interview with some of the most prominent developers at Intelligent Systems that talks extensively about permadeath, casual mode and the like. It's a great read.

Q. What harm does it do to YOU what someone else does in the game?

A. This isn't about what harm it does to me. It's about what it does to the game as a piece of art and how that affects other individuals playing it. I've repeatedly explained before and I guess I have to say it again that no matter what, you are fundamentally changing part of your experience by playing a mode where permadeath does not exist. The question then would become...

Q. Why does it matter if their experience changes?

A. Technically, one's experience being changed isn't actually the problem, because people already do that anyway by nature of the high possibilty space the games allow for, and multiple difficulty settings. Rather, the problem is that their experience in casual mode is actually lacking in key aspects that the developers themselves are trying their damndest to bring out. To the developers, someone playing on Casual Mode is quite literally not getting the full intended experience that they have tried to create, and it exists solely to attempt to attract people who may have found the notion of permadeath to be offputting, and to try to ease them into FE, so that they will hopefully one day indulge in that experience.

Q. Why should any of us care what the developers have to say about anything?

A. It's their creation, not ours. Obviously you're free to enjoy the product as you wish, (or free to not enjoy it) but the purpose of art is for the artist to convey something (I'd usually call it "the sublime" but that's a different discussion) to the audience. Their medium is the way they convey that something to us. A large part of Intelligent Systems' goals for Fire Emblem have consistently been related to the original concept a strategy game with RPG elements, where instead of just a series of levels, they wanted you to give a damn about those silly sprites you were moving around on the map. They wanted (and have always wanted) you, the player, to get invested in the moves and choices you make, the characters you use, and everything that goes on. And one of the primary (not secondary, not tertiary, primary) ways they set about achieving this was by making every unit a separate individual. And to emphasise that in fact, yes, this is an individual, each unit was irreplacable. Not in the sense of being unable to have anyone else fufill their role in a battle, but by not coming back if they died.

As the years have gone by, they've worked on attempting to keep adding to this. You don't just rely on the mechanical aspects of the game to reinforce a character's individuality, the narrative has room for it now too. But this doesn't mean that permadeath has had it's day, that it isn't needed anymore. Because they compliment each other. People were outraged when Fire Emblem went back on support convos in FE10 and FE11. Why? Because they removed something that people felt was very important to this cohesiveness. It's the same for permadeath, when you even introduce the prospect of removing it, you're actually just fundamentally detracting from the experience of playing the game. You aren't getting the same tension, the same awareness and the same focus without it. Fire Emblem has always been designed around this important premise, thats why it was so important to them they would not let it go.

Even with all that, even if you do not care a single jot about the narrative of Fire Emblem whatsoever you're still being affected by it in the way you play and utilise your units. It's really hard not to grow some level of attachment to them on some level at least!

Q. That still doesn't explain whats wrong with having two options! You can still pick Classic.

A. Yes, it's good that Classic Mode is still around, and I think I've made a decent case for it's existence. But as it stands now, Casual Mode's removal of permadeath makes it a mode that primarily exists to detract from the game. It is a watered down version of Fire Emblem. And I don't mean that in an elitist manner, I mean that in an honest sincere way. You haven't really played Fire Emblem if you haven't felt that intense wave of relief that comes after a close call, felt the bitter frustrating dissapointment and even anger at your mistakes or bad luck, felt the magnitude and weight of your choices continously piling up as you make move after move after move after move after move after move.

負けられないんだ！/ I can't lose here! - This kind of sensation is something that is nigh impossible to obtain in Casual Mode.

You can call me whatever nasty names you want but I think that's awful. Depressing even. It's like having a mode present that removes the bloodstain retrivial mechanic in Dark Souls. You've removed something that is incredibly special. Special not for "uniqueness" but because it cultivates geninuely compelling scenarios. It's easy to label it a superfluous mechanic but by having a mode present that can remove that, all you've done is actually offer somebody a way to play a worse game, wrapped up in the pretense of being more accessible or easier. What a misleading, terrible thing to do.

Yes, there's a stigma associated against permadeath. Yes, Casual Mode helped a lot of newcomers people get over that. But isn't this entire problem with newcomers and challenge solvable without eviscerating a powerful element of the game? If the games are too hard, can't we just have easier difficulties for newcomers? If that's not enough, what more can be done in those easier difficulties?

And if someone, honestly, truly, just CAN'T come to love the rollercoaster that Fire Emblem can be, then isn't that okay? If they don't want to experience the pressure in any capacity, then why does that need to be accomodated to? There are countless other games to fufill such abnegated positions, why should Fire Emblem have to derogate itself to such a thing?

But it already has, hasn't it? How sad. But I want to hope that Intelligent Systems remembers their old goals and principles and will at least try to encourage those Casual Mode players that they too can find something incredible in this series, something that's worth getting in a fuss about and cherishing.

[Topazd]

I think the more pressing question in the argument for Casual is: "Why do you care?"

Asking that at this point in time is a bit redundant. The reason why has been established a multitude of times by now.

EDIT Irysa's post above this one has basically everything that needs to be said condensed.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Topazd255

[The Protagonist]

Not, it's actually not understandable. It never is. Judging people based on their personal play styles/ skill levels is dumb and elitist- it can go both ways, but more often than not it is from long time fans and players. I also never found it alienating to talk about Fire Emblem with my friends who haven't played Classic; we could still talk about what we enjoyed about the gameplay and characters, and I could always offer them advice if they wanted to try Classic. It worked out a lot better than telling them that I thought their playthroughs were less valid than mine because I went Classic and they did not.

Hell, if a friend of mine who hasn't played FE yet asks me what game is best to start out on, I always recommend Awakening and SS. If they end up liking the series, then I'll tell them to try one of the more difficult entries.

There's more I want to say on the subject of Casual mode, but it's either already been said or can be better expressed by the other more articulate members of this site.

I had meant understandable literally. It's not hard to see why someone might oppose casual mode, regardless of whether you agree with them.

[The Protagonist]

You're calling the newcomers cowards for not starting the way you did. From your tone you're being a "guardian" to what FE is supposed to be.

If you were a game designer on IS's team, your failure is presuming that your vision is more important than what the player wants to do.

You're the one refusing to look at it from the other's perspective because you're already judging newcomers getting into the series via an optional game mode "contrary to the spirit of FE" is SHAMEFUL.

That is why the word "elitist" is thrown around. You're trying to make newcomers feel bad and stop playing if they can't handle it.

If it doesn't contribute to the design of FE, so what?

What is so offensive about people playing casual?

What if they don't want permadeath? Is that a shameful choice?

And if it was a game designed to punish people for not being strategic enough, FE WOULD BE DEAD BTW.

I don't think any of the FE games outside of 5 and 6, which are really just unfair at their lowest difficulties, would scare off new players with difficulty. I think it's a mistake to equate preserving strategy existing in almost any form with demanding that people unwilling to dedicate a lot of effort to near-perfection quit the series.

[Sunwoo]

What the hell …

Look, I feel that Awakening had its share of problems and things I didn't like about it compared to previous FEs. The presence of a casual mode was NOT one of these things; rather, my issues were with poor characterizations and supports and a bad story. I don't think any of us are changing each other's minds on whether we want casual mode to return or not … but it is one hell of an elitist thing to say when you think that an entire mode should be removed because "it doesn't fit your views on what FE should be like" and that people who play on casual mode "should be made to play on classic mode" or "they can find some other game to play". Seriously.

FE is not exactly an easy game series for people who've never played it. As someone who's played all games released in English, the gameplay of FE is second nature to me. On the other hand, I have a friend who started with Awakening, who decided to play classic mode on normal, and he struggled quite a bit. And another friend who got Awakening BECAUSE it had the option of casual mode. Like … maybe only one of my friends played FE before Awakening, and Awakening made the games a lot more accessible to them. One of them even got into Sacred Stones and has that as his favorite game! Are you guys REALLY going to say "lol nah get rid of casual mode it does nothing"? Everyone needs somewhere to start. And maybe they'll actually play your precious classic mode if you let them start on casual.

[sirmola]

The argument that casual should be removed infuriates me simply because playing it means that i am more relaxed and having more fun because i am not contently worrying about having to redo an entire chapter. People who dislike casual mode and feel that it should be removed are essentially wanting me to have less fun in order to satisfy their abstract concept of "purity" and that infuriates me.

[Jedi]

Us Fire Emblem players already have an elitist title over our heads, in any community. Casual mode is not an issue nor should anyone call it an issue.

I don't think any of the FE games outside of 5 and 6, which are really just unfair at their lowest difficulties, would scare off new players with difficulty. I think it's a mistake to equate preserving strategy existing in almost any form with demanding that people unwilling to dedicate a lot of effort to near-perfection quit the series.

FE10 and 12 can be intimidating. Although FE12 is what started casual mode so they wouldn't be too badly off.

[XeKr]

In the other thread, I made the analogy with books instead of albums (second half of the book is a simplified version of the first), but I suppose you'd argue that "Novels are meant to be read as a whole." I don't think this criticism works. Just as Casual Mode is meant for new players, the second half of the album is meant for new listeners and the second half of the novel is meant for new readers. This was the intention of our hypothetical artists.

I don't take issue with difficulty options. Having the game be slightly harder or slightly easier still jives with its design. Casual Mode removes an integral component of the design.

Literature is also a (mostly) individual undertaking (I know this drastically oversimplifies things, but referring to generating the core ideas/"art"), sometimes done over decades for the pure purpose of art. Unrealistic in the present industry of game design. There exist intrinsic issues in quality game development by an individual compared to say literature, certainly scale and ambition wise. Even for notable indie games, example Minecraft, Wikipedia seems to indicate it was a small side project until sales were significant and expansion could occur. Notably, measuring and building upon success, improving quality further, innovating the industry, etc, are still all things that ultimately come around to sales/investors. Between so entwined with technology is another factor. Drawing, storytelling, singing, acting-some fundamental things there have tons of history. Matters of programming, optimization, improving graphics, AIs, etc (which are unarguably considered metrics of quality for video games, by acclamation) are still new and rapidly developing (and again ultimately driven by revenue/investors. I suppose also other projects i.e. Valve/Steam, but it’s not as relevant here).

Moreover the fundamental concept of gaming has not traditionally aligned with that of art (certainly little precedence for developing new games as art). Sport perhaps, if anything, which obviously there’s been many developments on. But I suppose that’s another can of worms.

Truly niche stuff like art collectors or art house films have alternate backing, which I imagine would be exceedingly exceptional circumstances for video games.

And is it integral? The developers made a conscious decision to include it (only duress would be the potential death of the series, which is not a bad reason but doesn’t seem from interviews to be a factor). A significant part of the fanbase now seems to enjoy Fire Emblem with it, while another major part probably doesn’t care. We could argue about “real” fans of “real” Fire Emblem all day but fiscal performance is self-explanatory.

While we can speculate on the sales of Awakening without Casual Mode, reality is it was included and many people enjoy it. Will you now take it away from them? (we don’t really have the power either way, but it’s easy to understand why people get defensive about it)

Re: the topic in general

It’s completely okay to not like things.

It is also still possible to empathize, understand, and accept that other people may like it.

This is not that hard. >_>

Also random side note: it seems really easy to take the high ground wrt to discussing design decisions when your job (and people under your employ's job) is not on the line (therefore dismissing financial implications), or your game is already selling millions on claiming a unique brand of difficulty (Dark Souls, etc).

@Irysa: I assume you read on wrt why they did ultimately put Casual in the game after all the passionate discussion? Isn’t that really the majority opinion of a lot of veterans? We’ll still play Classic, but family/friends who otherwise would not play FE might now enjoy it more, and being able to share that experience with them is rather nice.

The reason your posts reads as “elitist” is you are inherently claiming your opinion regarding the FE series is better. Maybe you’re a more dedicated and knowledgeable fan, more hardcore and played more games, for longer times. Investigated the series more in depth. But if you make such claims, embrace the “elitist” backlash (I personally don’t find the passive-aggressiveness/”oh I’m so sad” very compelling >_>).

EDIT: I will however add that while you (and others) may act so if you feel so strongly, it is extremely toxic for the growth of a fan community (who, at a most basic level, usually just enjoy a game and want to have fun discussing it). And this self-perpetuates (extremely evident even itt). Care or don't. ;\

Edited February 13, 2015 by XeKr

[Rutger]

I've been lurking around on the forum for ages now. I'm a long time fan of the series and decided to register today just to give my opinion on the matter.

I'm all in for solutions that help newcomers or casual players learn and enjoy the game more. However, in an era where a lot of companies constantly dumb down their games so they can please a larger audience, I'm in constant fear the casual mindset could hurt the main idea of series like Fire Emblem. I'm not saying here that perma-death is the "right way" to play it or anything, but it was one the many reasons a lot of the older fans got into the series in the first place. FE13 already feels heavily affected by this new approach and I don't see it getting better on FE14.

Basically I would love if IS find a way (whether is casual mode or something else) to help introducing the series to a new generation, but without hurting the main idea of the series too much. But that is easier said than done.

[The Protagonist]

Some wise words from a veteran programmer:

I again speak as a person who has friends who got into it because they ENJOY the game via Casual Mode.

I as well, enjoy Casual Mode.

Having the option to have challenge and leisure.

It is taking away my freedom to enjoy it the way I want, all in the name of making "FE be a more proper strategy game".

That is absolutely infuriating.

You can have your opinion that the design is crappy to have it.

But to suggest to take away my enjoyment of having options and it doesn't affect you in any way picking classic mode is you being selfish.

Options aren't necessarily good for you. Simply because someone enjoys the game on casual doesn't mean that their experience was bettered by it. Rising to the challenge of classic may have provided a better experience. Remember that people are terrible judges of self, unfathomably so.

The topic asks what we personally want for the game. I personally would prefer a game that doesn't teach people to accept easy play that lacks some of the things I find positive in FE, since that can be limiting towards their future decisions. I'm fine with casual, so long as it pushes people to want to experience what they're missing in a future playthrough.

Us Fire Emblem players already have an elitist title over our heads, in any community. Casual mode is not an issue nor should anyone call it an issue.

FE10 and 12 can be intimidating. Although FE12 is what started casual mode so they wouldn't be too badly off.

Eh, 10 isn't quite punishing enough on Easy to scare people off, I think, though it's close. If anything in FE12 would scare people off, it's probably the general weirdness of that game. Level design for older FEs was simply not as good, for example.

[Jedi]

Eh, 10 isn't quite punishing enough on Easy to scare people off, I think, though it's close. If anything in FE12 would scare people off, it's probably the general weirdness of that game. Level design for older FEs was simply not as good, for example.

I'd argue fe12 has some of the best seize map designs, but that isn't here nor there.

[Thor Odinson]

I don't see how it's "dumbed down" when you can literally start on Lunatic Classic for your first run if you bloody feel like it

I fully endorse the system of multiple difficulty levels

I don't give a shit if the easiest mode is a literal cakewalk if there's also intermediary (like HM) and challenging (L/L+) difficulties coexisting; it's not like you have to play on easymode

[omega zero]

But it already has, hasn't it? How sad. But I want to hope that Intelligent Systems remembers their old goals and principles and will at least try to encourage those Casual Mode players that they too can find something incredible in this series, something that's worth getting in a fuss about and cherishing.

I'd be all for new players moving onto Classic. Still, I cannot fathom why the devs introduced casual mode without making an incentive for player to move on and experience the game in its traditional form.

[Baldrick]

I want to make my position clear too.

As a veteran who loves each and every game in the series for what it tries to do (even the ones I haven't played) it breaks my heart to hear people who don't want to play the earlier games because they're worried about permadeath. Casual Mode made a lot of people get into Fire Emblem, but at the same time, it's increased the psychological fear of permadeath.

A mode that allows people to save at the beginning of each turn and reload from there would remove the frustration of permadeath meaning you lose a lot of progress, and by being required to keep everyone alive, new players' strategic insight increases, and they'll give a sense of achievement in playing "the hardcore mode" and won't be turned off by the earlier games having no Casual Mode. Not everyone will think that way, and sales may drop in the short term, but I think those who grow to love the strategy aspect as well as the RPG aspect will make the fanbase that much stronger.

[Jedi]

A mode that allows people to save at the beginning of each turn and reload from there would remove the frustration of permadeath meaning you lose a lot of progress, and by being required to keep everyone alive, new players' strategic insight increases, and they'll give a sense of achievement in playing "the hardcore mode" and won't be turned off by the earlier games having no Casual Mode. Not everyone will think that way, and sales may drop in the short term, but I think those who grow to love the strategy aspect as well as the RPG aspect will make the fanbase that much stronger.

So return the FE4 and FE10 (Not on HM though) style saves you can do? I wouldn't be against it.

[The Protagonist]

I'd argue fe12 has some of the best seize map designs, but that isn't here nor there.

Eh, FE12's maps just seem poorly paced to me, but I haven't finished the game yet.

[Jedi]

Eh, FE12's maps just seem poorly paced to me, but I haven't finished the game yet.

Maybe i'm just too used to Lunatic being actually well designed.. Unlike a certain other lunatic I could mention :P.

Watch some of PJSalts videos on FE12, there are some threads around that section and the let's play/stream section that he demonstratates just how much thought is in the maps

[Sunwoo]

Options aren't necessarily good for you. Simply because someone enjoys the game on casual doesn't mean that their experience was bettered by it. Rising to the challenge of classic may have provided a better experience. Remember that people are terrible judges of self, unfathomably so.

If people really are terrible judges of self, then I'm going to assume that you're a terrible judge of yourself as well since you don't seem to realize just how much of a fucktard you seem to be coming off as.

No, really. I really hate being rude, but what I'm getting from you is "I know what people want or like better than they do, and I am in the position to judge it".

There is nothing forcing you to play casual mode. Just fucking ignore that it exists if it bothers you so much. Let other people play the game how they want. And while I can sometimes understand the need to "lay claim" to your fandom (such as, I don't like how FE looks like it might go in the direction of self-insert avatars and waifuism), doing so will likely come at the cost of being an elitist most people don't like.

[Refa]

I hate FE12's map design haha.

I want to make my position clear too.

As a veteran who loves each and every game in the series for what it tries to do (even the ones I haven't played) it breaks my heart to hear people who don't want to play the earlier games because they're worried about permadeath. Casual Mode made a lot of people get into Fire Emblem, but at the same time, it's increased the psychological fear of permadeath.

A mode that allows people to save at the beginning of each turn and reload from there would remove the frustration of permadeath meaning you lose a lot of progress, and by being required to keep everyone alive, new players' strategic insight increases, and they'll give a sense of achievement in playing "the hardcore mode" and won't be turned off by the earlier games having no Casual Mode. Not everyone will think that way, and sales may drop in the short term, but I think those who grow to love the strategy aspect as well as the RPG aspect will make the fanbase that much stronger.

I'd be fine with that.

[Topazd]

I will conclude on my part that implementing Casual mode was an utter mistake. It was by no means the fiscal savior of the series, and the accessibility it offered could have been simulated just as well with an Easy mode.

It might be too late to exclude Casual from later installments (due to reasons XeKr mentioned), but at the very least, advocate playing Classic in any way conceivable. Casual is extremely detrimental to the basic concept of FE, and playing it certainly doesn't offer the developer's intended experience.

Not everything should be done just to achieve accessibility that is (falsely) thought to be unachievable through the traditional means. The artist's own vision takes precedence over appealing to as big of an audience as possible.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Topazd255

[The Protagonist]

If people really are terrible judges of self, then I'm going to assume that you're a terrible judge of yourself as well since you don't seem to realize just how much of a fucktard you seem to be coming off as.

No, really. I really hate being rude, but what I'm getting from you is "I know what people want or like better than they do, and I am in the position to judge it".

There is nothing forcing you to play casual mode. Just fucking ignore that it exists if it bothers you so much. Let other people play the game how they want. And while I can sometimes understand the need to "lay claim" to your fandom (such as, I don't like how FE looks like it might go in the direction of self-insert avatars and waifuism), doing so will likely come at the cost of being an elitist most people don't like.

I don't really mind the insult. I'm used to people hating hearing how awful we are at understanding ourselves. My own ability to read people, however, is irrelevant. Psychology has shown us over and over how arrogant we are in our belief that we know ourselves perfectly. So, all in all, you're saying nothing new and nothing significant.

No one being forced to play casual changes nothing, because nothing I said relies on that point. I think the series would be more enjoyable if classic mode were encouraged or eased onto the player, and I personally think that casual mode blocking people from wanting to experience classic is a bad thing. I'm sure no one would challenge the claim that people starting on casual are much less likely to play classic.

[Sunwoo]

I'm sure no one would challenge the claim that people starting on casual are much less likely to play classic.

I challenge the fucking claim, and I'm sure many other people will. How do you even know this for certain? Have you asked every person who started the FE series with Awakening to the point you know this to be fact?

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Thor Odinson]

Does it

If people actually want a fucking challenge they'll go and play classic themselves

If people don't what gives you the right to dictate that their experiences are any less valid

It's a fucking video game

It's entertainment

It's not like we had classic taken away

Why is it our business to care about what other players want to play like

Also I'm going to say this much, when I started FE on FE8 I grinded that tower of valni like a motherfucker and now I play Lunatic+ classic nogrind so uhhh

If people like the challenge they'll do it to themselves

Edited February 13, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Loki Laufeyson]

Are you saying i dont know myself well enough to know what kinds of games i want to play?

Get off my freaking lawn, kiddo. I know exactly what i want out of video games, and so do most people who are serious enough about buying video games. All you are doing is making yourself look like a pseudo intellectual who thinks he knows how other people feel. You dont. You dont know me. You dont know the guys posting in this thread. You cannot claim you know what is best for gamers. If you really believe that, then you do not know yourself enough to believe yourself correct.

[Terrador]

I don't really mind the insult. I'm used to people hating hearing how awful we are at understanding ourselves. My own ability to read people, however, is irrelevant. Psychology has shown us over and over how arrogant we are in our belief that we know ourselves perfectly. So, all in all, you're saying nothing new and nothing significant.

No one being forced to play casual changes nothing, because nothing I said relies on that point. I think the series would be more enjoyable if classic mode were encouraged or eased onto the player, and I personally think that casual mode blocking people from wanting to experience classic is a bad thing. I'm sure no one would challenge the claim that people starting on casual are much less likely to play classic.

1) Casual mode in no way blocks Classic. Classic is the default. That's like saying I can't play Hard because Normal exists--it makes literally no sense.

2) Normal-Classic is the easiest Classic mode in franchise history, by my reckoning. Anyone who's played any FE game before can handle it, so it's not taking vets away from classic. And newbies? It's patently obvious that Casual has helped people ease into the franchise, and a substantial chunk of these people--hold on to your hats, man--might enjoy increasing their challenge as their skill increases!

3) How does other people playing Casual impact your experience in any meaningful way?