Does anyone else....

[BrightBow]

You realize that, by your logic, getting Fergus to b swords is favoritism as well, right? And that Leaf has 3 more chapters, AND is pretty much the best candidate for the early game stay boosters. Fergus doesn't need the armorslayer, he wants the rapier and brave sword.

It's 4 more chapters actually since there is also Chapter 3x.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Moishe Oofnik]

You realize that, by your logic, getting Fergus to b swords is favoritism as well, right? And that Leaf has 3 more chapters, AND is pretty much the best candidate for the early game stat boosters. Fergus doesn't need the armorslayer, he wants the rapier and brave sword.

How is that favoritism? Leaf starts at C and is deployed on ever map. So he has no less then 4 maps + the majority of Chapter 4 to raise his weapon rank while Fergus has only like half of a map to do the same thing.

leifs performance in the 1st 3 chapters isnt very good he will probably snatch 20~ hits on fair share

felgus has better stats better durabillity and will probably be the main offensive force(alongside bryghton) in chapter 4 20 hits isnt really a wide margain

and getting to dashin in that amount of turns so leif really doenst have that b during the 1st chapters

Finn wants kills Othin wants kills halvan wants kills dagda is awesome

Look at better units who could also use those kills (apart from dagda)

[Jedi]

Finn, Halvan and Othin don't really need kills to be good. They have highly destructive weapons given to them right out the gate

Edited March 4, 2015 by Jedi

[momogeek2141]

Fun doesn't want kill, he's over leveled. He just want to capture stuff. Why the hell would you give kills to Dagda?

20 hits is easy to reach in chapter 2 with all those pirates, and the kills can go to Othin and Havan. But like Jedi said, Othin doesn't need kills, so only Havan really wants them aside from Leaf. Felgus requires some work to make good in ch 4, and Brytons growths are weak. B swords Leaf is definitely better than Bryton in Manster, wrath doesn't one shot armors.

[Jedi]

Fun doesn't want kill, he's over leveled. He just want to capture stuff. Why the hell would you give kills to Dagda?

20 hits is easy to reach in chapter 2 with all those pirates, and the kills can go to Othin and Havan. But like Jedi said, Othin doesn't need kills, so only Havan really wants them aside from Leaf. Felgus requires some work to make good in ch 4, and Brytons growths are weak. B swords Leaf is definitely better than Bryton in Manster, wrath doesn't one shot armors.

Wrath is still amazing in Manster though, Brighton is pretty clutch. Also people seem to be forgetting Marty who can be one of the best capture units in the game because he actually has a Bld growth and his other weak growths can be easily fixed with scrolls (as can everyone elses).

[BrightBow]

leifs performance in the 1st 3 chapters isnt very good he will probably snatch 20~ hits on fair share

In 4 maps? You think Leaf will not even attack 5 times on every map? Seriously?

And that's not even counting the time in Chapter 4 were you expect Felgus to magically deal no less then 20 hits despite him having less movement then Leaf.

felgus has better stats better durabillity and will probably be the main offensive force(alongside bryghton) in chapter 4 20 hits isnt really a wide margain

He has barely better stats then base Leaf. +1 spd, +2 Str, +1 Def. Ignoring the fact that Leaf will have gotten a few levels in 4 chapters and a life ring, a speed ring and still has a sexy magic sword, he also has more movement then Felgus while in Manster.

and getting to dashin in that amount of turns so leif really doenst have that b during the 1st chapters

I can't understand what you are saying here. But if it's about movement, as I said Leaf is faster then Felgus indoors.

Finn wants kills Othin wants kills halvan wants kills dagda is awesome

And none of them are around during Manster.

Look at better units who could also use those kills (apart from dagda)

Why do you talk about "using kills" when mentioning Dagda? Obviously when we are killing shit with Dagda, we are not "using" them seeing how Dagda doesn't have growths worth a damn. So what argument are you making here?

Anyway, no one really gets us more out of the EXP then Leaf because only he and Lifis are actually going to Manster.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Jedi]

Why do you talk about "using kills" when mentioning Dagda? Obviously when we are killing shit with Dagda, we are not "using" them seeing how Dagda doesn't have growths worth a damn.

To be fair, he is excellent for capturing enemies, so we could be using him for that. Matter of fact his bases are so good that he can still kill stuff on the final chapter haha.

[BrightBow]

To be fair, he is excellent for capturing enemies, so we could be using him for that. Matter of fact his bases are so good that he can still kill stuff on the final chapter haha.

Oh, I know Dagda's bases are awesome. But that doesn't explain what argument he is making when he says "Look at better units who could also use those kills". Only Dagdar and Marty can reliable capture all those bandits in the first chapters and TTPK_Tal actively bashed Marty on the last page, so he is definitely not one of those "better units" that he is talking about. So it doesn't sound to me like he is talking about Capturing and more about feeding EXP and that we should actively restrain Leaf from killing stuff so that he doesn't waste it.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Jedi]

Oh, I know Dagda's bases are awesome. But that doesn't explain what argument he is making when he says "Look at better units who could also use those kills". Only Dagdar and Marty can reliable capture all those bandits in the first chapters. So it doesn't sound to me like he is talking about Capturing and more about feeding EXP and that we should actively restrain Leaf from killing stuff.

That is true, I just felt I may have needed to throw that out there yeah.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Jedi

[Moishe Oofnik]

Oh, I know Dagda's bases are awesome. But that doesn't explain what argument he is making when he says "Look at better units who could also use those kills". Only Dagdar and Marty can reliable capture all those bandits in the first chapters and TTPK_Tal actively bashed Marty on the last page, so he is definitely not one of those "better units" that he is talking about. So it doesn't sound to me like he is talking about Capturing and more about feeding EXP and that we should actively restrain Leaf from killing stuff so that he doesn't waste it.

The dagda part was a joke my point was that leif isnt gurenteed to get high levels on manster nor b weapon rank (mabye C-40) othin doesnt want kills really he wants kills so what if wrath is awesome doesnt deny him from getting kills and becoming even more awesome

I agree with finn being overleveled my mistake on that

Halvan wants kills and has better offence

what im saying that leif isnt prone to always get B swords and you want to perserve the light sword and not just waste all of its uses right leif will probably use flame sword when felgus will use brave sword

felgus also comes with 4 more hp then base leif but leif is likely 5/- with about 25~26 HP

Let me break it down felgus who has 5 pcc bryghton who has wrath have much better offence during manster and sexy durabillity

I was talking about fair share not restarining leif from kills

And I wasnt talking from my perspective as in my playthroughs leif was already close to b is not at b I always give him the flame sword and felgus the brave sword due to felgus utilizing brave sword better and leif flame sword better

I was talking about getting alot of kills in chapter 4 if you want to go low turn count

dagda is the best capture bot during the 1st chapters

marty is a close 2nd but thats literly his only niche he needs 3 scrolls (baldur fala and sety) to get his speed growth to make him grew and thats still only 55%

marty is better then miranda and eda he is more like robert kein and alba level of meh

Edited March 4, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[BrightBow]

what im saying that leif isnt prone to always get B swords and you want to perserve the light sword and not just waste all of its uses right leif will probably use flame sword when felgus will use brave sword

I don't think Leaf is running the risk of loosing all the charges of the Light Sword anytime soon if we assume that he isn't even attacking 5 times on a single map.

felgus also comes with 4 more hp then base leif but leif is likely 5/- with about 25~26 HP

Let me break it down felgus who has 5 pcc bryghton who has wrath have much better offence during manster and sexy durabillity

If you grant Leaf to have 25 HP at that point, he already ties in durability with both of them. I think you are forgetting to consider that Fergus' and Brighton's stats are lower while dismounted, especially defense.

I was talking about fair share not restarining leif from kills.

Then he will get enough hits in. Heck, you actually assumed just now that Leaf would be lv5 at Manster. That should be enough for him to reach Rank B.

And I wasnt talking from my perspective as in my playthroughs leif was already close to b is not at b I always give him the flame sword and felgus the brave sword due to felgus utilizing brave sword better and leif flame sword better

I can't quite translate that "b is not at b" part but if Leaf can use the Flame Sword then he can also use the Armor Slayer.

I was talking about getting alot of kills in chapter 4 if you want to go low turn count

Then Leaf is probably going to see more action then Felgus, seeing how Leaf has more movement while indoors.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Moishe Oofnik]

I don't think Leaf is running the risk of loosing all the charges of the Light Sword anytime soon if we assume that he isn't even attacking 5 times on a single map.

If you grant Leaf to have 25 HP at that point, he already ties in durability with both of them. I think you are forgetting to consider that their stats are lower while dismounted, especially defense.

Then he will get enough hits in. Heck, you actually assumed just now that Leaf would be lv5 at Manster. That should be enough for him to reach Rank B.

I can't quite translate that "b is not at b" part but if Leaf can use the Flame Sword then he can also use the Armor Slayer.

Then Leaf is probably going to see more action then Felgus, seeing how Leaf has more movement while indoors.

You ignored the pcc why

both have a movement star so if felgus procs his other turn he has 10 move (yes im aware that leif has 12)

to be clear i ment to say that leif might only have b swords but he might also have c-40~ (again you missed half the post)

PCC of 5=Crazy Offence

Wrath=Crazy Offence

You can run more staff into both bryghton and felgus and expect them to have more chances to be dead rather then the armor slayer leif (just give him flame hitting for magic and 1-2 range)

Brighton has the best offence in chapter 4 and is the best unit during manster (dont even try to deny the wrath awesomeness)

He has the best def growth leif will have 4 def at 0/5 most likely (averages)

28 hp/6 def >25/4 def

so his durabillity only rivals felgus who as I mentioned has better offence and good chances to get to B

and I said that leif can get proc on armor slayer its only one chapter(still worse then brighton in c4 anyway)

felgus hits B in 4x and basicly gets a prf brave sword for a big part of the game (who rivals him in taking claim to it carrion leif mabye indoors youd probably give him levin/fire outdoors too)

Brightons bases are mediocre apart from defence which is rather solid

Edited March 4, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[BrightBow]

You ignored the pcc why

Because it is unrelated to what I am arguing against, namely your statement from the last page that Leaf getting a B-Rank by the time of chapter 4 is favoritism while you were at the same time assuming that Felgus is easily raising his weapon rank before even facing even Dhalsim. I'm not actually trying to argue that Leaf > Felgus or something like that because I don't actually have an opinion on that matter. And even if I did, this kind of argument would be too time consuming for this evening anyway. I'm only arguing that Leaf has no trouble using B-Rank swords by the time of Chapter 4.

Which is also why I am not going to engage the rest of your post, but I would still like to point out that you are ignoring that Felgus and Brighton have less Def while dismounted. They both loose 2 Def.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BrightBow

[Moishe Oofnik]

Because it is unrelated to what I am arguing against, namely your statement from the last page that Leaf getting a B-Rank by the time of chapter 4 is favoritism while you were at the same time assuming that Felgus is easily raising his weapon rank before even facing even Dhalsim. I'm not actually trying to argue that Leaf > Felgus or something like that because I don't actually have an opinion on that matter. And even if I did, this kind of argument would be too time consuming for this evening anyway. I'm only arguing that Leaf has no trouble using B-Rank swords by the time of Chapter 4.

Which is also why I am not going to engage the rest of your post, but I would still like to point out that you are ignoring that Felgus and Brighton have less Def while dismounted. They both loose 2 Def.

brighton has 8 base def mounted 6 unmounted lol

Edited March 4, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[General Horace]

^ he has 5 actually.

Leaf is your best non Asvel unit in manster anyway given proper resources Fergus really isn't that spectacular in or out of manster. 5 PCC looks flashy and all, but when you're facing thracia's enemies, you don't need it.

He's just another unit that can kill generics really well, and that isn't anything special in Thracia.

Edited March 5, 2015 by General Horace

[Refa]

Karin is the best unit you get out of Manster anyways IMO.

EDIT Asvel isn't that good in Manster until he promotes, so I'd say Leaf is actually better there.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Refa

[momogeek2141]

You ignored the pcc why

both have a movement star so if felgus procs his other turn he has 10 move (yes im aware that leif has 12)

to be clear i ment to say that leif might only have b swords but he might also have c-40~ (again you missed half the post)

PCC of 5=Crazy Offence

Wrath=Crazy Offence

You can run more staff into both bryghton and felgus and expect them to have more chances to be dead rather then the armor slayer leif (just give him flame hitting for magic and 1-2 range)

Brighton has the best offence in chapter 4 and is the best unit during manster (dont even try to deny the wrath awesomeness)

He has the best def growth leif will have 4 def at 0/5 most likely (averages)

28 hp/6 def >25/4 def

so his durabillity only rivals felgus who as I mentioned has better offence and good chances to get to B

and I said that leif can get proc on armor slayer its only one chapter(still worse then brighton in c4 anyway)

felgus hits B in 4x and basicly gets a prf brave sword for a big part of the game (who rivals him in taking claim to it carrion leif mabye indoors youd probably give him levin/fire outdoors too)

Brightons bases are mediocre apart from defence which is rather solid

So is one rounding every enemy and one shotting ARMORS. Can Bryton do that? All of the dangerous enemy groups in manster consist of AKs. Having the ability to one shot all of them is more amazing than anything Bryton can do. The only person who can reliably one round armors besides Leaf is Felgus w/rapier (and that has a 10% chance of failure) and Asvel.

[Moishe Oofnik]

So is one rounding every enemy and one shotting ARMORS. Can Bryton do that? All of the dangerous enemy groups in manster consist of AKs. Having the ability to one shot all of them is more amazing than anything Bryton can do. The only person who can reliably one round armors besides Leaf is Felgus w/rapier (and that has a 10% chance of failure) and Asvel.

If bryghton procs 1 str (or was it 2) he one rounds all soilders an allmost one rounds all armors in chapter 4 with the steel sword 6+9=15 15x3=45 damage he kills dashim on counter and all of his armors

Felgus has blaggi sword access good growths for thracia a horse and he isnt bad at manster because of that movement star he allmost gets prf on that brave sword in 4x asvel starts fail with durabillity in manster too

so bryghton is capable to deal with every enemy after 1 str (or again was it 2) in chapter 4 3 more hp then leif the only thing leif has over him is flame/armor and 6 move

so what happens when we are out of manster felgus gets a mother fucking horse(higher stats) bryghton(more bulk more wrath more move) gets a mother fucking horse leif doesnt

felgus performance in doors is good because he keeps his sword rank has great offence good bulk outdoors a good build growth for capturing

Who to give the brave sword apart from felgus he is the natural wielder of it he utlizes it the best post manster and if he got a few levels in manster he even the best at using it in manster mutual support with karin

so leif and his mediocre combat below average pcc of 2 can actually compete with felgus anywhere outside of manster is a joke after promotion he laughs at leif indoors until

but leif has his niches to bro and I do now anknowledge his good performance in the manster chapters(1 leadership and supporting so many units)

on a another note should eyrios be bro?? his preety concrete when you get him and comes with great skills (we are ignoring the fact that he denies olwen and judgeing him as a unit)

Edited March 5, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[MCProductions]

Coming from a guy who's yet to beat chapter 4(lol, I suck at emulated fire emblem). I will say that based on first impressions alone, Leif is terrible. Even Roy,for all of his flaws, could at least double people after one level up. Do bear in mind that said first impressions gave me an erroness opinion of Lex, so I'm most definatly wrong here. I just felt the need to contribute somehow.

[momogeek2141]

Personally I feel this is very off topic. I will start another in fire emblem debates.

[Chiki]

To my knowledge Horace holds the lowest turn count in FE7 at ~150. He has all maps cleared in 5 turns or less except Ch.11 and defensive maps. I don't think any of his turn counts can be improved on so his record is pretty much the best you can possibly get.

Actually, I considered doing an FE7 LTC a few months ago and found a few places that could be improved upon just in Lyn Mode.

[Ansem]

Coming from a guy who's yet to beat chapter 4(lol, I suck at emulated fire emblem). I will say that based on first impressions alone, Leif is terrible. Even Roy,for all of his flaws, could at least double people after one level up. Do bear in mind that said first impressions gave me an erroness opinion of Lex, so I'm most definatly wrong here. I just felt the need to contribute somehow.

Leaf doesnt get fatigue, and is pretty important during the prison running chapters. He just needs a few levels/stat boosters to get him going, and he is well worth the investment.

[General Horace]

Actually, I considered doing an FE7 LTC a few months ago and found a few places that could be improved upon just in Lyn Mode.

off the top of my head the prologue, chapter 5 and chapter 13 can be bettered with a few 1-3% crits

probably some later chapters too but I'm far too lazy for that.

[MCProductions]

Leaf doesnt get fatigue, and is pretty important during the prison running chapters. He just needs a few levels/stat boosters to get him going, and he is well worth the investment.

Do bear in mind that by chapter 4 Fatigue is not yet an issue. There is a reason I mentioned first impressions tho, because I have yet to get far enough in Tharacia to provide anything other than First impressions.

I always level up the lords above any other character so I do hope he becomes more viable